Tour to Japan

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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby TrapperChamonix » April 12th, 2017, 9:09 am

Oldschool wrote:D. Ryan won't be going to Japan, he's going to Racing instead.
Heaslip will either be with the lions or rested.
Zebo???? No place for Gilroy?
Very light on centres - ROLoughlan Olding Marshall Trimble
Payne likely to be FB means Byrne will lose out to Carberry at 10.
It's also likely Joe will bring someone like Larmour on this trip.


Has that been confirmed yet? I've always assumed it was a bit of "Agent" posturing. Its not like we haven't seen it before.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby sunshiner1 » April 12th, 2017, 10:10 am

Question for you boys with Dillane probably not making the tour because of injury and Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley and Mike McCarthy now effectively retired internationally as they're all off to France which two second rows would you bring along with Toner and Henderson? Would you give Billy Holland a chance or would you go for two younger fellas? For me Kieran Treadwell has to be picked, as for the fourth Holland is a workhorse who probably deserves a chance. There is nothing really to tell between Cannon/Browne at Connacht, O'Connor at Ulster or Maloney at Leinster. Quinn Roux has struggled to get into the Connacht XV this season which is disheartening but he's also an option.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby matt » April 12th, 2017, 11:14 am

sunshiner1 wrote:Question for you boys with Dillane probably not making the tour because of injury and Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley and Mike McCarthy now effectively retired internationally as they're all off to France which two second rows would you bring along with Toner and Henderson? Would you give Billy Holland a chance or would you go for two younger fellas? For me Kieran Treadwell has to be picked, as for the fourth Holland is a workhorse who probably deserves a chance. There is nothing really to tell between Cannon/Browne at Connacht, O'Connor at Ulster or Maloney at Leinster. Quinn Roux has struggled to get into the Connacht XV this season which is disheartening but he's also an option.


Squad will probably be young & second row ideal for experienced players to do the hard yards for the youngsters. Assuming no Lions & Dillane not fit/D.Ryan not available case could be made for Billy Holland with Toner & Henderson & then Threadwell for development. Thinking about it would not be surprised to see Holland tour captain as he is the type of player JS knows exactly what he will get from & ideal foil for other second rows. I know Toner & Henderson likely first choice & both call lineouts but if one of these 3 second rows not captain who do people suggest if RB, JH, POM, SOB not available.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby leinsterforever » April 12th, 2017, 3:22 pm

matt wrote:
sunshiner1 wrote:Question for you boys with Dillane probably not making the tour because of injury and Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley and Mike McCarthy now effectively retired internationally as they're all off to France which two second rows would you bring along with Toner and Henderson? Would you give Billy Holland a chance or would you go for two younger fellas? For me Kieran Treadwell has to be picked, as for the fourth Holland is a workhorse who probably deserves a chance. There is nothing really to tell between Cannon/Browne at Connacht, O'Connor at Ulster or Maloney at Leinster. Quinn Roux has struggled to get into the Connacht XV this season which is disheartening but he's also an option.


Squad will probably be young & second row ideal for experienced players to do the hard yards for the youngsters. Assuming no Lions & Dillane not fit/D.Ryan not available case could be made for Billy Holland with Toner & Henderson & then Threadwell for development. Thinking about it would not be surprised to see Holland tour captain as he is the type of player JS knows exactly what he will get from & ideal foil for other second rows. I know Toner & Henderson likely first choice & both call lineouts but if one of these 3 second rows not captain who do people suggest if RB, JH, POM, SOB not available.


Niall Scannell, Leavy or Ruddock?

Edit: Paddy Jackson might be an option. He's captained Ulster several times, right? Holland and Luke McGrath are captaincy material, but would probably only make the bench. I suppose Chris Henry is a possibility.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby sunshiner1 » April 12th, 2017, 4:37 pm

I suppose Chris Henry is a possibility.


No offence to Chris Henry but with his age and the position in the backrow I would not like to see him there. We have too many young guns going to hit there peak at the next RWC who could do with the gametime and experience rather than bringing an old hand along.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » April 12th, 2017, 4:48 pm

matt wrote:Agree that majority of players should be Developmental with eye on 2019 so main senior players likely to be Healy, D.Ryan, Toner, Payne, Earls, Zebo & Heaslip would also be very useful as captain if fit and if not POM or SOB would be captain in unlikely event of them not being selected for the Lions.

I'd expect something like 1 Healy/Kilcoyne 2 N.Scannell/Cronin 3 J.Ryan/Bealham/Bent 4 Henderson/Threadwell/Dillane if fit 5 Toner/D.Ryan 6 Leavy/JOD/Ruddock 7 VDF/TOD 8 Heaslip (captain)/Conan 9 Marmian/L.McGrath 10 Jackson/R.Byrne 11 Zebo/Earls/Conway/Stockdale 12 R.Scannell 13 Payne 14 Sweetman/A.Byrne 15 Carbury or TOH

This tour with 3 test games is best opportunity these players will get to make a breakthrough before the Irish Lions players are available again in November.


Anybody believe that IRFU / Joe might take a punt on including Ollie Jager from Crusaders at THP, purely to close out his NZ option. Furlong will be with Lions so we will have Ryan / Bealham / Bent as the options. A 23 year NZ developed THP should be
A reasonable option in that company?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » April 12th, 2017, 5:43 pm

It might make him choose between Ireland and his S15 career.

If you make him say no you make it harder to get him later.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Oldschool » April 12th, 2017, 6:21 pm

ronk wrote:It might make him choose between Ireland and his S15 career.

If you make him say no you make it harder to get him later.

No problem with that - if he's not good enough for NZ he's not good enough for us, given our FR talent.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby hugonaut » April 12th, 2017, 7:13 pm

matt wrote:
sunshiner1 wrote:Question for you boys with Dillane probably not making the tour because of injury and Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley and Mike McCarthy now effectively retired internationally as they're all off to France which two second rows would you bring along with Toner and Henderson? Would you give Billy Holland a chance or would you go for two younger fellas? For me Kieran Treadwell has to be picked, as for the fourth Holland is a workhorse who probably deserves a chance. There is nothing really to tell between Cannon/Browne at Connacht, O'Connor at Ulster or Maloney at Leinster. Quinn Roux has struggled to get into the Connacht XV this season which is disheartening but he's also an option.


Squad will probably be young & second row ideal for experienced players to do the hard yards for the youngsters. Assuming no Lions & Dillane not fit/D.Ryan not available case could be made for Billy Holland with Toner & Henderson & then Threadwell for development. Thinking about it would not be surprised to see Holland tour captain as he is the type of player JS knows exactly what he will get from & ideal foil for other second rows. I know Toner & Henderson likely first choice & both call lineouts but if one of these 3 second rows not captain who do people suggest if RB, JH, POM, SOB not available.


I think bringing Billy Holland makes absolutely no sense, and I am a fan of Holland's. Holland is a really decent player for Munster, but in international terms he is a very undersized [191cm and 108kg] 31 year old lock with one cap. He's not the future of the Irish second row, to be blunt. Do we need to bring a fourth second row if we are bringing Henderson, Toner and Treadwell [who I presume is the third]? Each player could make two starts and one appearance off the bench.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby matt » April 12th, 2017, 8:01 pm

hugonaut wrote:
matt wrote:
sunshiner1 wrote:Question for you boys with Dillane probably not making the tour because of injury and Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley and Mike McCarthy now effectively retired internationally as they're all off to France which two second rows would you bring along with Toner and Henderson? Would you give Billy Holland a chance or would you go for two younger fellas? For me Kieran Treadwell has to be picked, as for the fourth Holland is a workhorse who probably deserves a chance. There is nothing really to tell between Cannon/Browne at Connacht, O'Connor at Ulster or Maloney at Leinster. Quinn Roux has struggled to get into the Connacht XV this season which is disheartening but he's also an option.


Squad will probably be young & second row ideal for experienced players to do the hard yards for the youngsters. Assuming no Lions & Dillane not fit/D.Ryan not available case could be made for Billy Holland with Toner & Henderson & then Threadwell for development. Thinking about it would not be surprised to see Holland tour captain as he is the type of player JS knows exactly what he will get from & ideal foil for other second rows. I know Toner & Henderson likely first choice & both call lineouts but if one of these 3 second rows not captain who do people suggest if RB, JH, POM, SOB not available.


I think bringing Billy Holland makes absolutely no sense, and I am a fan of Holland's. Holland is a really decent player for Munster, but in international terms he is a very undersized [191cm and 108kg] 31 year old lock with one cap. He's not the future of the Irish second row, to be blunt. Do we need to bring a fourth second row if we are bringing Henderson, Toner and Treadwell [who I presume is the third]? Each player could make two starts and one appearance off the bench.


I think JS is going to want to bring a small amount of experienced players, most young squads do better with a few experienced players.

In a week he will know will Healy, Toner, POM, SOB, etc be available to him or the Lions. I would think if available POM would be captain followed by SOB but if neither nor JH is then Ruddock & Holland are probably the best choices for tour captain.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby dropkick » April 12th, 2017, 8:48 pm

I don't think the squad needs too many experienced players. A lot of the new generation of players like Leavy and Niall Scannell are natural leaders. You can tell that some players are like that even at a young age.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Fan with smartphone » April 12th, 2017, 9:38 pm

It depends on if you see Holland maintaining his position in the pecking order come rwc. I disagree with Dave that rwc is an afterthought. I think it's front and center for Schmidt. He has spoken fairly strongly about aiming to be 3 players deep in every position by 2019. Holland isn't the future long term, as you say Hugo, but he will only be 33 and if we have injuries he may be who we end up looking to.

I really don't think Toner should go. He might be in NZ, but even if not, we don't need to know anything more about him. If Henderson isn't with the lions, then I would possibly take him, but (and not everyone might agree) I think he is also nailed on for 2019 if fit. After that we have a problem and unless we grow someone new by 2019, then Schmidt may have to consider bending the rules for D Ryan. That's an option, but not ideal. Would've been a great trip for Dillane, but it's not to be.

On the basis of all that I would definitely take Roux. He really impresses me and whilst I haven't seen every Connacht game, he has looked good to me in what I have seen. Treadwell is worth a punt probably too. Big and fast, but he is the opposite of Holland in terms of smarts, at this stage of his career. He has a lot to learn, I'm not sure he'd have overly impressed Schmidt just yet, though some of his highlights are definitely eye-catching. Molony is also in the mix for me, given that he has shown potential to improve, but it may be too early for him too. To be honest I'd go Roux, Treadwell and it's a gut feel between Holland and Molony as to whether you feel in 2 years time Molony will be worth that investment now. I'm veering towards feeling he is. But taking the 4 of them might be the fairest thing of all. Let the players decide it themselves out there and that would potentially more help grow the depth we need in this position.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » April 12th, 2017, 10:18 pm

If you want to bring experience you want a guy who's toured a lot and knows the system inside and out.

Holland isn't that guy. This is valuable time that young players get with Joe to get a list of things to improve. McFadden is someone who ticks that box. Henderson and/or Toner could be picked.

With Ryan (probably) leaving there's a need to work on developing replacements. Holland will step in when needed but there are 3 guys in Molony, Treadwell and Roux who can't build experience fast enough.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby leinsterforever » April 13th, 2017, 3:06 am

hugonaut wrote:
matt wrote:
sunshiner1 wrote:Question for you boys with Dillane probably not making the tour because of injury and Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley and Mike McCarthy now effectively retired internationally as they're all off to France which two second rows would you bring along with Toner and Henderson? Would you give Billy Holland a chance or would you go for two younger fellas? For me Kieran Treadwell has to be picked, as for the fourth Holland is a workhorse who probably deserves a chance. There is nothing really to tell between Cannon/Browne at Connacht, O'Connor at Ulster or Maloney at Leinster. Quinn Roux has struggled to get into the Connacht XV this season which is disheartening but he's also an option.


Squad will probably be young & second row ideal for experienced players to do the hard yards for the youngsters. Assuming no Lions & Dillane not fit/D.Ryan not available case could be made for Billy Holland with Toner & Henderson & then Threadwell for development. Thinking about it would not be surprised to see Holland tour captain as he is the type of player JS knows exactly what he will get from & ideal foil for other second rows. I know Toner & Henderson likely first choice & both call lineouts but if one of these 3 second rows not captain who do people suggest if RB, JH, POM, SOB not available.


I think bringing Billy Holland makes absolutely no sense, and I am a fan of Holland's. Holland is a really decent player for Munster, but in international terms he is a very undersized [191cm and 108kg] 31 year old lock with one cap. He's not the future of the Irish second row, to be blunt. Do we need to bring a fourth second row if we are bringing Henderson, Toner and Treadwell [who I presume is the third]? Each player could make two starts and one appearance off the bench.


Who's your lock slash blindside for the World Cup squad if it isn't Holland? Connacht's Sean O'Brien has yet to feature internationally. Ruddock would be a risk in the 2nd row at Test level. Henderson has the necessary versatility, but it might be better if the utility option wasn't one of the first-choice players
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby sunshiner1 » April 13th, 2017, 7:01 am

Connacht's Sean O'Brien has yet to feature internationally.


Totally forgot about SOB 2.0 he's being impressive this season and it would be a good chance to bring him on tour. He would also be a good sub replacement in that he can play 4,5 and 6 leaving JS to pick an out and out 7 on the bench.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 13th, 2017, 8:47 am

Dont think SOB2 is big enough for international rugby

I would rest Toner as he has 2 knockout campaigns but Henderson wont. I like Holland as an experienced fulcrim sic for set piece/tour. Ŕoux will go but Treadwell and Browne should (too)
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby The Doc » April 13th, 2017, 8:56 am

Any player on the fringe of the Lions (or on the backup list) could be on tour to Japan - Heaslip / Cronin / Toner etc
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby scentofgunpowder » April 13th, 2017, 9:29 am

simonokeeffe wrote:Dont think SOB2 is big enough for international rugby

I would rest Toner as he has 2 knockout campaigns but Henderson wont. I like Holland as an experienced fulcrim sic for set piece/tour. Ŕoux will go but Treadwell and Browne should (too)


O'Brien is 6'4, 108kgs. Peter O'Mahony is 6'3, 106kg. On top of that he's an extremely abrasive, aggressive player. I don't physicality would be a problem for him at any level
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 13th, 2017, 10:56 am

scentofgunpowder wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Dont think SOB2 is big enough for international rugby

I would rest Toner as he has 2 knockout campaigns but Henderson wont. I like Holland as an experienced fulcrim sic for set piece/tour. Ŕoux will go but Treadwell and Browne should (too)


O'Brien is 6'4, 108kgs. Peter O'Mahony is 6'3, 106kg. On top of that he's an extremely abrasive, aggressive player. I don't physicality would be a problem for him at any level


Shouldve been clearer, meant as a secondrow
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby paddyor » April 13th, 2017, 1:35 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:
scentofgunpowder wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Dont think SOB2 is big enough for international rugby

I would rest Toner as he has 2 knockout campaigns but Henderson wont. I like Holland as an experienced fulcrim sic for set piece/tour. Ŕoux will go but Treadwell and Browne should (too)


O'Brien is 6'4, 108kgs. Peter O'Mahony is 6'3, 106kg. On top of that he's an extremely abrasive, aggressive player. I don't physicality would be a problem for him at any level


Shouldve been clearer, meant as a secondrow

He's a blindside.
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