Tour to Japan

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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby scentofgunpowder » April 13th, 2017, 1:52 pm

O'Brien is 6'4, 108kgs. Peter O'Mahony is 6'3, 106kg. On top of that he's an extremely abrasive, aggressive player. I don't physicality would be a problem for him at any level[/quote]

Shouldve been clearer, meant as a secondrow[/quote]
He's a blindside.[/quote]

He has played loads of second row but yeah his future is at 6, where I think he's almost certain to be an international. I was running up walls when Lam was talking about moving him back to lock in pre season
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 13th, 2017, 1:55 pm

he needs a serious injury free run let alone starting run for Connacht to be a regular international if even one at all, Leinster are churning out backrowers at a rate of knots
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby hugonaut » April 13th, 2017, 2:41 pm

leinsterforever wrote:Who's your lock slash blindside for the World Cup squad if it isn't Holland? Connacht's Sean O'Brien has yet to feature internationally. Ruddock would be a risk in the 2nd row at Test level. Henderson has the necessary versatility, but it might be better if the utility option wasn't one of the first-choice players


Two years out? I have no idea. Not sure if we have somebody that fits the role aside from Henderson.

In terms of second rows, we've got some up-and-comers in Dillane [23 y.o., born Nov 1993 - 39 Connacht caps, 10 Irish caps], Molony [22 y.o., born May 1994, 40 Leinster caps], Treadwell [21 y.o., born Nov 1995, 18 Ulster caps] and James Ryan [20 y.o., born July 1996].

With regards to the Japan/US tour, Dillane is injured and Ryan has spent most of the season out injured and hasn't appeared for Leinster, so they're not in the picture. If it comes down to picking one from Treadwell or Molony, Treadwell's form has been better.

Donnacha Ryan's decision to move to France, a three-match summer tour to a pair of Tier 2/3 nations and an Autumn Series with World Cup seeding positions already allotted allows an opportunity for the coaching team to build a test second row from raw material. I think they're close to optimum circumstances to introducing a young forward to test rugby. We obviously need to look at a new second row; we're not sending down some kid to play against the All Blacks or South Africans before he's ready; and we can afford to continue the efforts in November against better teams – we'll be at home, and the matches don't really count for anything.

So if you take Treadwell and play him in all three games of the summer tour, you'll get a good idea of whether or not he's a guy who has the potential to play Six Nations rugby in the future. If he is, you keep him in the squad for the AIs, and then see how he does there. If he doesn't go well on the tour, you look at bringing in whoever is playing better out of Molony or Dillane for the AIs. Then you look at one of those players as the bench option for the following year's Six Nations ... and at the end of one season [in a best case scenario] you have a player who has earned 9 or 10 caps and has established a good level of experience in test rugby.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby dropkick » April 13th, 2017, 3:12 pm

scentofgunpowder wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Dont think SOB2 is big enough for international rugby

I would rest Toner as he has 2 knockout campaigns but Henderson wont. I like Holland as an experienced fulcrim sic for set piece/tour. Ŕoux will go but Treadwell and Browne should (too)


O'Brien is 6'4, 108kgs. Peter O'Mahony is 6'3, 106kg. On top of that he's an extremely abrasive, aggressive player. I don't physicality would be a problem for him at any level



He's very good at the breakdown in terms of making an impact and like POM, he would be another lineout option. Speaking of which, Leavy looks a good lineout option too potentially.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Cor. Ind. » April 13th, 2017, 3:24 pm

Can't believe DOC hasn't been mentioned. 6'4, 113kg, great engine, hard tackler and still only 27. I think he'll cement his place in the squad over the next few weeks.

That said, the decision to let DRyan go is quite simply unforgivable when we have no like for like replacement and the guy is only now hitting his prime.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby paddyor » April 13th, 2017, 3:29 pm

Cor. Ind. wrote:Can't believe DOC hasn't been mentioned. 6'4, 113kg, great engine, hard tackler and still only 27. I think he'll cement his place in the squad over the next few weeks.

That said, the decision to let DRyan go is quite simply unforgivable when we have no like for like replacement and the guy is only now hitting his prime.

It was his decision.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Cor. Ind. » April 13th, 2017, 3:33 pm

paddyor wrote:
Cor. Ind. wrote:Can't believe DOC hasn't been mentioned. 6'4, 113kg, great engine, hard tackler and still only 27. I think he'll cement his place in the squad over the next few weeks.

That said, the decision to let DRyan go is quite simply unforgivable when we have no like for like replacement and the guy is only now hitting his prime.

It was his decision.


Ah, so it was his decision not to offer himself a cc. Right you are... :roll:
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby sunshiner1 » April 13th, 2017, 4:14 pm

by paddyor

He's a blindside.


Connacht have started playing SOB 2.0 at second row this season and apparently want him to move there fully in the future (that might change under Keane). I wouldn't have any big worries about him there, he's the same height as Mike McCarthy and has the same aggressive stye of play.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby neiliog93 » April 13th, 2017, 4:41 pm

sunshiner1 wrote:
by paddyor

He's a blindside.


Connacht have started playing SOB 2.0 at second row this season and apparently want him to move there fully in the future (that might change under Keane). I wouldn't have any big worries about him there, he's the same height as Mike McCarthy and has the same aggressive stye of play.


Yeah, but Mike McCarthy's lack of height was problematic at times. The second rows on the Summer Tour could be Henderson, Roux, Molony and possibly Ruddock or SOB 2.0 as back row options that also cover second row.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby sunshiner1 » April 14th, 2017, 11:22 am

Does anyone know if we are going to start playing A internationals again? Surely they were beneficial in giving new players a chance to see what near international level is like and getting new guys up to speed with Schmidt's systems? I for one would love to see us play a friendly against the likes of Georgia the week before the 6N and bleed some new players while also trying to get rid of our now legendary slowness in starting that tournament.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 14th, 2017, 1:25 pm

sunshiner1 wrote:Does anyone know if we are going to start playing A internationals again? Surely they were beneficial in giving new players a chance to see what near international level is like and getting new guys up to speed with Schmidt's systems? I for one would love to see us play a friendly against the likes of Georgia the week before the 6N and bleed some new players while also trying to get rid of our now legendary slowness in starting that tournament.


England are paying for a Saxons squad so they should
Sadly though expanded league formats, Welsh/Scottish tightness, demands of French league and a few other things fupp up A internationals, but I would love to see more of them
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby leinsterforever » April 14th, 2017, 3:48 pm

hugonaut wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:Who's your lock slash blindside for the World Cup squad if it isn't Holland? Connacht's Sean O'Brien has yet to feature internationally. Ruddock would be a risk in the 2nd row at Test level. Henderson has the necessary versatility, but it might be better if the utility option wasn't one of the first-choice players


Two years out? I have no idea. Not sure if we have somebody that fits the role aside from Henderson.

In terms of second rows, we've got some up-and-comers in Dillane [23 y.o., born Nov 1993 - 39 Connacht caps, 10 Irish caps], Molony [22 y.o., born May 1994, 40 Leinster caps], Treadwell [21 y.o., born Nov 1995, 18 Ulster caps] and James Ryan [20 y.o., born July 1996].

With regards to the Japan/US tour, Dillane is injured and Ryan has spent most of the season out injured and hasn't appeared for Leinster, so they're not in the picture. If it comes down to picking one from Treadwell or Molony, Treadwell's form has been better.

Donnacha Ryan's decision to move to France, a three-match summer tour to a pair of Tier 2/3 nations and an Autumn Series with World Cup seeding positions already allotted allows an opportunity for the coaching team to build a test second row from raw material. I think they're close to optimum circumstances to introducing a young forward to test rugby. We obviously need to look at a new second row; we're not sending down some kid to play against the All Blacks or South Africans before he's ready; and we can afford to continue the efforts in November against better teams – we'll be at home, and the matches don't really count for anything.

So if you take Treadwell and play him in all three games of the summer tour, you'll get a good idea of whether or not he's a guy who has the potential to play Six Nations rugby in the future. If he is, you keep him in the squad for the AIs, and then see how he does there. If he doesn't go well on the tour, you look at bringing in whoever is playing better out of Molony or Dillane for the AIs. Then you look at one of those players as the bench option for the following year's Six Nations ... and at the end of one season [in a best case scenario] you have a player who has earned 9 or 10 caps and has established a good level of experience in test rugby.


I get the need to develop some second rowers. If Ryan, McCarthy and Foley are all out of the picture after this season it'll mean that there's not much depth behind Toner and Henderson. Dillane, Holland and Roux only have a handful of caps between them.

I just think that that player who can play blindside and lock is quite important given the size constraints of a World Cup squad. Taking two 8s, two 7s, one 6, three locks and one guy who can play blindside and lock seems the best way to go about things for a RWC in the back five of the pack - assuming that strength in certain positions makes this a logical approach. Holland has started and performed well in European Cup games in both positions, and is well placed to challenge for that utility role in my opinion.

Maybe one of Henderson or Toner will make the Lions and make some extra space in the squad.

What do you make of James Cannon? He's not as young as Treadwell, but I thought he looked quite promising in a few appearances this season.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » April 14th, 2017, 4:44 pm

There's no rule that Ryan can't be picked for Ireland, especially come the RWC.

As things stand I very much doubt Billy Holland makes the RWC squad and his ability to cover 6 isn't worth much when we already have versatile backrows and Henderson.

Given the age profile of our locks the priority must be to develop some of the younger specialists.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Cor. Ind. » April 14th, 2017, 5:06 pm

ronk wrote:There's no rule that Ryan can't be picked for Ireland, especially come the RWC.

As things stand I very much doubt Billy Holland makes the RWC squad and his ability to cover 6 isn't worth much when we already have versatile backrows and Henderson.

Given the age profile of our locks the priority must be to develop some of the younger specialists.


But you're forgetting all that mumbo-jumbo about Yo Be One Kinobi and his systems (aka The Force) - he's got a pretty good knack about how to lose to Wales & turn up late to games against Scotland...and lose...

DRyan won't be released for training camps or the weeks before and during AIs & 6Ns. So he's gone...

I recently heard Yo Be One reciting TS Eliot's Prufrock in Stephens Green:

"Do I dare disturb the universe? Do I dare select (an unfit, out of form) Fergus McFadden?

I have heard the Munsterfans singing each to each...I do not think they'll sing for me!"
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby hugonaut » April 14th, 2017, 6:19 pm

leinsterforever wrote:
hugonaut wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:Who's your lock slash blindside for the World Cup squad if it isn't Holland? Connacht's Sean O'Brien has yet to feature internationally. Ruddock would be a risk in the 2nd row at Test level. Henderson has the necessary versatility, but it might be better if the utility option wasn't one of the first-choice players


Two years out? I have no idea. Not sure if we have somebody that fits the role aside from Henderson.

In terms of second rows, we've got some up-and-comers in Dillane [23 y.o., born Nov 1993 - 39 Connacht caps, 10 Irish caps], Molony [22 y.o., born May 1994, 40 Leinster caps], Treadwell [21 y.o., born Nov 1995, 18 Ulster caps] and James Ryan [20 y.o., born July 1996].

With regards to the Japan/US tour, Dillane is injured and Ryan has spent most of the season out injured and hasn't appeared for Leinster, so they're not in the picture. If it comes down to picking one from Treadwell or Molony, Treadwell's form has been better.

Donnacha Ryan's decision to move to France, a three-match summer tour to a pair of Tier 2/3 nations and an Autumn Series with World Cup seeding positions already allotted allows an opportunity for the coaching team to build a test second row from raw material. I think they're close to optimum circumstances to introducing a young forward to test rugby. We obviously need to look at a new second row; we're not sending down some kid to play against the All Blacks or South Africans before he's ready; and we can afford to continue the efforts in November against better teams – we'll be at home, and the matches don't really count for anything.

So if you take Treadwell and play him in all three games of the summer tour, you'll get a good idea of whether or not he's a guy who has the potential to play Six Nations rugby in the future. If he is, you keep him in the squad for the AIs, and then see how he does there. If he doesn't go well on the tour, you look at bringing in whoever is playing better out of Molony or Dillane for the AIs. Then you look at one of those players as the bench option for the following year's Six Nations ... and at the end of one season [in a best case scenario] you have a player who has earned 9 or 10 caps and has established a good level of experience in test rugby.


I get the need to develop some second rowers. If Ryan, McCarthy and Foley are all out of the picture after this season it'll mean that there's not much depth behind Toner and Henderson. Dillane, Holland and Roux only have a handful of caps between them.

I just think that that player who can play blindside and lock is quite important given the size constraints of a World Cup squad. Taking two 8s, two 7s, one 6, three locks and one guy who can play blindside and lock seems the best way to go about things for a RWC in the back five of the pack - assuming that strength in certain positions makes this a logical approach. Holland has started and performed well in European Cup games in both positions, and is well placed to challenge for that utility role in my opinion.

Maybe one of Henderson or Toner will make the Lions and make some extra space in the squad.

What do you make of James Cannon? He's not as young as Treadwell, but I thought he looked quite promising in a few appearances this season.


It's a difficult enough argument to make, because I respect Holland and admire him as a player – he's smart, tough, has a great workrate and seems like a good guy and a leader on and off the pitch.

But from my point of view, he's nowhere near big or athletic or strong enough to prosper as a test second row, and that's his best position for Munster. He'd have to be an absolute freakshow to play regular test rugby against opposite numbers who are 8-10cm taller [i.e. 199-201cm] and 10-15kg heavier [i.e. 118-123kg], and he's just not that player – he's good at the bits and pieces, but he's not a guy who churns out big play after big play or a strongman who dominates collisions.

For a pro blindside he's pretty slow and struggles to get over the gainline – for Munster this season he has made 79m from 104 carries, with 1 credited clean break and 2 defenders beaten. He's not really in the conversation as a blindside at national level; I'd certainly have Stander, O'Mahony, Ruddock and Sean O'Brien II ahead of him, without any contrived positional changes.

I was trying to think of a comparison, and being a small second row is like being a slow winger: you're at a massive disadvantage to start with, and you have to offset that by being brilliant at other things and conspicuously outstanding in practically every game.

With all that said, I think that Holland is a good player and have long thought so [I wrote an article about him 5 years ago when he seemed to be getting a tough deal in selection at Munster: https://dementedmole.com/2012/01/20/bil ... #more-1827 ]. However, I'm not convinced that by any claims made on his behalf as a test second row.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby leinsterforever » April 14th, 2017, 11:21 pm

hugonaut wrote:It's a difficult enough argument to make, because I respect Holland and admire him as a player – he's smart, tough, has a great workrate and seems like a good guy and a leader on and off the pitch.

But from my point of view, he's nowhere near big or athletic or strong enough to prosper as a test second row, and that's his best position for Munster. He'd have to be an absolute freakshow to play regular test rugby against opposite numbers who are 8-10cm taller [i.e. 199-201cm] and 10-15kg heavier [i.e. 118-123kg], and he's just not that player – he's good at the bits and pieces, but he's not a guy who churns out big play after big play or a strongman who dominates collisions.

For a pro blindside he's pretty slow and struggles to get over the gainline – for Munster this season he has made 79m from 104 carries, with 1 credited clean break and 2 defenders beaten. He's not really in the conversation as a blindside at national level; I'd certainly have Stander, O'Mahony, Ruddock and Sean O'Brien II ahead of him, without any contrived positional changes.

I was trying to think of a comparison, and being a small second row is like being a slow winger: you're at a massive disadvantage to start with, and you have to offset that by being brilliant at other things and conspicuously outstanding in practically every game.

With all that said, I think that Holland is a good player and have long thought so [I wrote an article about him 5 years ago when he seemed to be getting a tough deal in selection at Munster: https://dementedmole.com/2012/01/20/bil ... #more-1827 ]. However, I'm not convinced that by any claims made on his behalf as a test second row.


I dunno, man. He makes a huge number of tackles, and is a good line-out man - two important qualities for a blindside. If we're talking about him having a lack of pace for 6 then I think that's a problem for O'Brien as well. He seems pretty slow.

His size would be a bit of a concern in the second row, but hardly anyone is without some part of their game that is less strong. He'll probably never be first choice, but I think he is a very useful player to have in the squad

Do you have any stats that indicate what percentage of ball Holland receives he passes? My impression is that he's used as a link player quite a lot because he has relatively good handling ability, and, as you say, isn't as strong as others at carrying ball
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby sunshiner1 » April 15th, 2017, 7:29 am

leinsterforever wrote:

What do you make of James Cannon? He's not as young as Treadwell, but I thought he looked quite promising in a few appearances this season.


He's done very well this season and is highly thought of at Connacht. Haven't seen enough of him to tell you if he's better that any of the other guys.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » April 15th, 2017, 11:04 am

During the Season 2017-18, James Ryan will get significant time for Leinster. Treadwell will be first choice for Ulster and Dillane will be first choice for Connacht. Ryan will have Leo as Coach, Treadwell will have Jonno Gibbs and Dillane will have Keane. Easterby will oversee their development and each will have had a serious preparation - possibly Japan for Treadwell and post-injury rehab for Dillane and Ryan. Each will benefit significantly from these preparations.

Roux and Molony are probably near the top on the rank. Molony has added bulk but lost some of his handling and tackling skill-set. Leo and Burt will focus his pre-season work in these areas. Roux has become a bit lazy and Lam hasn't given him enough attention in ball-carrying, tacking and explosiveness. Keane and Jimmy Duffy will be working on him and the other Connacht second-rows, Dillane, Cannon, Qualter and Browne and Jimmy understands that late development can happen.

If there is concern at National level about SR options for Japan, it would be far more logical to focus more time on Sean O'Brien II than Billy H. Same build, comparable skills but SO'B still improving.

There are other younger guys coming through also, but for now there are adequate options for development towards 2019
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 15th, 2017, 12:13 pm

SOBs speed is good, acceleration might be a different story. Holland is not a viable 6 against a tier 1 nation

Going by this game Olding and Marshall dont deserve to go
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » April 17th, 2017, 11:15 pm

Ross Byrnes dropgoal last week looks all the better with Paddy Jackson missing in Limerick.

He might be a good bet.

We'll know a lot more about the touring party on Wednesday
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