Ireland u20 2017-2018

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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby Oldschool » June 17th, 2018, 5:34 pm

ronk wrote:If it's a good coach who has developed players but had an off tournament then you learn and move on.

There are good players, injuries and mixed abilities. The nature of tournaments like this is that they can go pear shaped.

I'm eir less so don't get to judge too much. I hope lessons are learnt either way.

The U20 players are quite simply very inexperienced, using inexperienced coaches is jokesville.
The U20s is the last place inexperienced coaches should be used.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » June 17th, 2018, 5:39 pm

cormac wrote:From the bits of the 6N and JWC that I saw their biggest problem was in defence.


Some of it was so incredibly basic. We had guys totally out of position off scrums against France and SA, and then today we missed so many tackles off restarts which gave Japan so many easy yards and lots of belief too. Just like against Scotland when we kept throwing to the back of the lineout and cocking it up spectacularly, there didn't seem to be much direction coming from the sideline, because there's no way we should have kept kicking restarts to Japan's most dangerous carriers.

One improvement today was that we kept the scoreboard ticking over and that was the difference in the end. This might sound stupid in such a high scoring game where we threw away a big lead, but we were actually impressively composed at times. To be fair to everyone involved, the pressure must have been immense so I mention composure in that context.

I've already said that I have sympathy with the coaches because of the players we lost and the direct impact it had on some of our weaker areas but there was just no improvement since the 6N (bar receiving restarts but that should never been as bad in the first place) and some areas regressed even further. Whatever about the unit skills potentially having the excuse of players missing, I thought the skill level was poor, especially up front, and I'm not sure there's an excuse for that.

I'd imagine it was a horrible team to be a part of and would find it hard to judge many of the players on the last 6 months. I've seen guys like Aungier and TOB play far better than they did in the last couple of weeks and there were some other really talented players who showed glimpses of what they can but then were let down by others. Still think a lot of good players will come from this group but the last 6 months has probably set many of them being in their development.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby dropkick » June 17th, 2018, 8:30 pm

I agree that experienced coaches are needed. At least some experience in the coaching team.


Its not as simple as blaming the coaches though. Yes, the coaches underperformed and that should be looked at but to me there were other factors for Irelands performances.


1, the team wasn't fit enough. They've shipped a lot of points in the last 30min this season and thats when mistakes seem to happen most. They were beating France and South Africa at half time, they were level (I think) with England in the 6 nations, comfortably beating 14 man Italy and comfortably ahead of Japan today.

2, Injuries. Jack O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Curtis, French and Kellleher were 4 of the star players in the side in the 6 nations.

3, They're behind in physical development to most teams or maybe every other team. Thats just the Irish system. Dan Brennan mentioned the other day that he flew to Paris to train for the week as a 16 year old! I saw somewhere that the French have a lot of players playing in the Top14. The Irish players looked like a schoolboy side in body shape.

4, Squad depth. You're only as good as your weakest link. Although theres talent in the squad, there were some seriously weak areas especially in the back 3.

5, Defence. The last 2 points goes some way to explaining the poor defence. And they're all very small players.

6, Confidence. Young lads having a bad tournament isn't good for confidence and when confidence is low mistakes happen which in turn damages confidence.


They hung on and got the job done today. Next season the one thing I don't want to see are players playing every minute of every game.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby dropkick » June 17th, 2018, 8:38 pm

Next year our group includes England, Italy and Australia.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ronk » June 17th, 2018, 8:51 pm

Getting back in is one thing, seeding is another. Still a good performance next year gives them a chance to get a higher seed.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby hugonaut » June 17th, 2018, 11:23 pm

France won the championship for the first time in their history. Well done to them. They're a huge rugby nation with millions of people who love the sport and it's good to see them putting their game in order at some level.

Highlights: https://www.worldrugby.org/video/345960
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby paddyor » June 18th, 2018, 2:13 am

From what I saw, Aungier was really poor, Harry Byrne flakey. I don't think any of them backs have much of a future in the game bar maybe Sylvester. Apparently Lowry was good today and there's a rumours (from Ulster - sigh) that he was dumped for Dean at the start of the tournament). Defense was terrible. Really bad. POC and Tierney can take a walk. The first5-10 minutes of the 2nd half of the France game for e.g. We were missing some of our best players such as Kelelher and Curtis amongst others. We can still get a few pros out of this group.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ormond lad » June 18th, 2018, 2:46 am

dropkick wrote:I agree that experienced coaches are needed. At least some experience in the coaching team.

Its not as simple as blaming the coaches though. Yes, the coaches underperformed and that should be looked at but to me there were other factors for Irelands performances.

1, the team wasn't fit enough. They've shipped a lot of points in the last 30min this season and thats when mistakes seem to happen most. They were beating France and South Africa at half time, they were level (I think) with England in the 6 nations, comfortably beating 14 man Italy and comfortably ahead of Japan today.

2, Injuries. Jack O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Curtis, French and Kellleher were 4 of the star players in the side in the 6 nations.

3, They're behind in physical development to most teams or maybe every other team. Thats just the Irish system. Dan Brennan mentioned the other day that he flew to Paris to train for the week as a 16 year old! I saw somewhere that the French have a lot of players playing in the Top14. The Irish players looked like a schoolboy side in body shape.

4, Squad depth. You're only as good as your weakest link. Although theres talent in the squad, there were some seriously weak areas especially in the back 3.

5, Defence. The last 2 points goes some way to explaining the poor defence. And they're all very small players.

6, Confidence. Young lads having a bad tournament isn't good for confidence and when confidence is low mistakes happen which in turn damages confidence.

They hung on and got the job done today. Next season the one thing I don't want to see are players playing every minute of every game.
I really dont see fitness having been an issue.
Of course we'll be behind physical development compared to most teams. Theyre in academies longer. Unless you change access when kids are in school that wont change.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby leinsterforever » June 18th, 2018, 1:40 pm

ormond lad wrote:
dropkick wrote:I agree that experienced coaches are needed. At least some experience in the coaching team.

Its not as simple as blaming the coaches though. Yes, the coaches underperformed and that should be looked at but to me there were other factors for Irelands performances.

1, the team wasn't fit enough. They've shipped a lot of points in the last 30min this season and thats when mistakes seem to happen most. They were beating France and South Africa at half time, they were level (I think) with England in the 6 nations, comfortably beating 14 man Italy and comfortably ahead of Japan today.

2, Injuries. Jack O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Curtis, French and Kellleher were 4 of the star players in the side in the 6 nations.

3, They're behind in physical development to most teams or maybe every other team. Thats just the Irish system. Dan Brennan mentioned the other day that he flew to Paris to train for the week as a 16 year old! I saw somewhere that the French have a lot of players playing in the Top14. The Irish players looked like a schoolboy side in body shape.

4, Squad depth. You're only as good as your weakest link. Although theres talent in the squad, there were some seriously weak areas especially in the back 3.

5, Defence. The last 2 points goes some way to explaining the poor defence. And they're all very small players.

6, Confidence. Young lads having a bad tournament isn't good for confidence and when confidence is low mistakes happen which in turn damages confidence.

They hung on and got the job done today. Next season the one thing I don't want to see are players playing every minute of every game.
I really dont see fitness having been an issue.
Of course we'll be behind physical development compared to most teams. Theyre in academies longer. Unless you change access when kids are in school that wont change.


How do you explain the team repeatedly falling away in second halves then? It might not be aerobic fitness per se, but they don't seem to be conditioned to go for 80 minutes
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 18th, 2018, 5:04 pm

ormond lad wrote:
dropkick wrote:I agree that experienced coaches are needed. At least some experience in the coaching team.

Its not as simple as blaming the coaches though. Yes, the coaches underperformed and that should be looked at but to me there were other factors for Irelands performances.

1, the team wasn't fit enough. They've shipped a lot of points in the last 30min this season and thats when mistakes seem to happen most. They were beating France and South Africa at half time, they were level (I think) with England in the 6 nations, comfortably beating 14 man Italy and comfortably ahead of Japan today.

2, Injuries. Jack O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Curtis, French and Kellleher were 4 of the star players in the side in the 6 nations.

3, They're behind in physical development to most teams or maybe every other team. Thats just the Irish system. Dan Brennan mentioned the other day that he flew to Paris to train for the week as a 16 year old! I saw somewhere that the French have a lot of players playing in the Top14. The Irish players looked like a schoolboy side in body shape.

4, Squad depth. You're only as good as your weakest link. Although theres talent in the squad, there were some seriously weak areas especially in the back 3.

5, Defence. The last 2 points goes some way to explaining the poor defence. And they're all very small players.

6, Confidence. Young lads having a bad tournament isn't good for confidence and when confidence is low mistakes happen which in turn damages confidence.

They hung on and got the job done today. Next season the one thing I don't want to see are players playing every minute of every game.
I really dont see fitness having been an issue.
Of course we'll be behind physical development compared to most teams. Theyre in academies longer. Unless you change access when kids are in school that wont change.


Totally disagree that we should be behind with physical development, except for the islanders who have a different genetic or physiological makeup. The intensity of S&C at most Schools and each Province is now on a par with anything offered and measured) in France, NZ or Aus. How and why we should be behind Eng or Wal is a total mystery and isn't always the case.

Experience shows we get different years with different attributes - totally random distribution - Henderson's group in S. africa and Ryan's group in Manchester were prime examples.

Not the first time this suggestion has been made but an Irish U.20 Squad (or two) should play together in the All Ireland league to adequately prepare their team work and defensive patterns for the 6N and JWRC each year. We always look underdone. We usually improve through each tournament. It's all the players are focussed on anyway.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby mildlyinterested » June 20th, 2018, 1:11 pm

Nucifora has overlooked the collapse of the irish under-20 team, the more he has gotten involved and changed the structures etc. the worse results have gotten.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 20th, 2018, 3:31 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:Nucifora has overlooked the collapse of the irish under-20 team, the more he has gotten involved and changed the structures etc. the worse results have gotten.


Those results have largely co-incided with the appointment of 'internal' i.e.Provincial Coaching and Management teams who would be considered "learners" in the coaching game for Tournaments. Both the 6N and JWC competitions are real tournaments where selection and player rotation and depth are critical to the outcome.

Some years ago, at a Coaching Seminar, heard Mike Ruddock talk about some of the key elements of coaching under Tournament conditions and it was fascinating. A lot more difficulties that you'd expect, particularly for U.20's doing it for the first time and usually emotionally overwrought, having been selected in a very competitive environment. I suspect, based particularly on 6N results of past few Seasons, that our Coaches have found it a big challenge.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby El Diablo » June 20th, 2018, 5:42 pm

When do the IRB normally announce the nominations for World Junior Player of the Year? I thought it was usually straight after the u20 WC but I havent heard anything. Would N'tamack be one of the favourites I wonder? According to wikipedia no french player has even been nominated in all the year!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Junior_Player_of_the_Year
I cant see Doris following in Max Deegan's footsteps as we finished 11th although he could be nominated.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ormond lad » June 20th, 2018, 6:48 pm

El Diablo wrote:When do the IRB normally announce the nominations for World Junior Player of the Year? I thought it was usually straight after the u20 WC but I havent heard anything. Would N'tamack be one of the favourites I wonder? According to wikipedia no french player has even been nominated in all the year!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Junior_Player_of_the_Year
I cant see Doris following in Max Deegan's footsteps as we finished 11th although he could be nominated.
Its named already i think.
French backrow Jordan Joseph got it
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ormond lad » June 20th, 2018, 6:50 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
ormond lad wrote:
dropkick wrote:I agree that experienced coaches are needed. At least some experience in the coaching team.

Its not as simple as blaming the coaches though. Yes, the coaches underperformed and that should be looked at but to me there were other factors for Irelands performances.

1, the team wasn't fit enough. They've shipped a lot of points in the last 30min this season and thats when mistakes seem to happen most. They were beating France and South Africa at half time, they were level (I think) with England in the 6 nations, comfortably beating 14 man Italy and comfortably ahead of Japan today.

2, Injuries. Jack O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Curtis, French and Kellleher were 4 of the star players in the side in the 6 nations.

3, They're behind in physical development to most teams or maybe every other team. Thats just the Irish system. Dan Brennan mentioned the other day that he flew to Paris to train for the week as a 16 year old! I saw somewhere that the French have a lot of players playing in the Top14. The Irish players looked like a schoolboy side in body shape.

4, Squad depth. You're only as good as your weakest link. Although theres talent in the squad, there were some seriously weak areas especially in the back 3.

5, Defence. The last 2 points goes some way to explaining the poor defence. And they're all very small players.

6, Confidence. Young lads having a bad tournament isn't good for confidence and when confidence is low mistakes happen which in turn damages confidence.

They hung on and got the job done today. Next season the one thing I don't want to see are players playing every minute of every game.
I really dont see fitness having been an issue.
Of course we'll be behind physical development compared to most teams. Theyre in academies longer. Unless you change access when kids are in school that wont change.


Totally disagree that we should be behind with physical development, except for the islanders who have a different genetic or physiological makeup. The intensity of S&C at most Schools and each Province is now on a par with anything offered and measured) in France, NZ or Aus. How and why we should be behind Eng or Wal is a total mystery and isn't always the case.

Experience shows we get different years with different attributes - totally random distribution - Henderson's group in S. africa and Ryan's group in Manchester were prime examples.

Not the first time this suggestion has been made but an Irish U.20 Squad (or two) should play together in the All Ireland league to adequately prepare their team work and defensive patterns for the 6N and JWRC each year. We always look underdone. We usually improve through each tournament. It's all the players are focussed on anyway.
I disagree. Schools s&c is good in places but it isnt better than whats in pro set ups and most players in many of the other countries have been/are in pro set ups longer than our players at this age.
And an irish under 20s squad shouldnt at all play in the AIL. The players should play AIL but with their individual clubs. They should play more interpros and more development games before the 6 nations and world championships though
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ormond lad » June 20th, 2018, 6:51 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:Nucifora has overlooked the collapse of the irish under-20 team, the more he has gotten involved and changed the structures etc. the worse results have gotten.
No he hasnt. And what would you propose to change then?
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ormond lad » June 20th, 2018, 6:52 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Nucifora has overlooked the collapse of the irish under-20 team, the more he has gotten involved and changed the structures etc. the worse results have gotten.


Those results have largely co-incided with the appointment of 'internal' i.e.Provincial Coaching and Management teams who would be considered "learners" in the coaching game for Tournaments. Both the 6N and JWC competitions are real tournaments where selection and player rotation and depth are critical to the outcome.

Some years ago, at a Coaching Seminar, heard Mike Ruddock talk about some of the key elements of coaching under Tournament conditions and it was fascinating. A lot more difficulties that you'd expect, particularly for U.20's doing it for the first time and usually emotionally overwrought, having been selected in a very competitive environment. I suspect, based particularly on 6N results of past few Seasons, that our Coaches have found it a big challenge.
Carolan did well. And is 20s level not the level that we should be sending some of our newer pro coaches to experience coaching internationally in a tournament setting? What other levels is there that they can learn this?
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby Dave Cahill » June 20th, 2018, 7:39 pm

ormond lad wrote:And is 20s level not the level that we should be sending some of our newer pro coaches to experience coaching internationally in a tournament setting?


I'd argue the opposite is the case. Talent development at this level with our limited player pool is so important that it shouldn't be in the hands of inexperienced coaches. Okay, not every team can be coached by a Grand Slam winning coach like we had with Ruddock, but it should be coaches already well along the Pro pathway, perhaps after progressing through AIL and Provincial 'A' level with a demonstrated ability at developing players.
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby ormond lad » June 20th, 2018, 8:00 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
ormond lad wrote:And is 20s level not the level that we should be sending some of our newer pro coaches to experience coaching internationally in a tournament setting?


I'd argue the opposite is the case. Talent development at this level with our limited player pool is so important that it shouldn't be in the hands of inexperienced coaches. Okay, not every team can be coached by a Grand Slam winning coach like we had with Ruddock, but it should be coaches already well along the Pro pathway, perhaps after progressing through AIL and Provincial 'A' level with a demonstrated ability at developing players.
Yes perhaps but quite a few of the u20 coaches have been coaching through AIL and a level. McNamara, Conboy, Tierney all different levels but had coached through AIL.
McNamara and Conboy have shown ability to develop players through their school/club coaching.
Tierney messed up with womens team but had progressed/done ok at schools and AIL level
What coaches do you want to be coaching 20s then who are well along pro pathway?
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Re: Ireland u20 2017-2018

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » June 20th, 2018, 8:09 pm

Can't we have both? I'd love to see Ruddock involved in some way (although IIRC he has no interest), can't think of many others who fit the bill for a type of mentor role but that's the route I'd be taking.
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