Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby paddyor » November 13th, 2017, 11:53 am

TerenureJim wrote:
paddyor wrote:
blockhead wrote:What is it with us Irish?
We smash the BOKs 38-3 and all we can do is lament the fall from grace of the once mighty South Africa. If anyone of the other 6N tems had a scoreline like that they would be cock-a-hoop. And they wouldn't give a fup about the BOKs.
If England won by 35 pts the narrative would be that it was confirmation of their status as the best team in the world. RSA's problems would be of no concern, they played as good as they were allowed to by the mighty chariot, etc, etc.
We don't really beleive we are good enough, do we?
And we'ed hate it if others thought we were displaying some, dare I say it, self-confidence (altough we would call it arrogance, as we can't tell the difference).

Anyway, back to the game. Our attack looked fairly good at times, but our defence was awesome. Farrell is doing a masterful job. The likes of Conway, Stockdale and Aki looked like they had 20 odd caps each they were so well prepped. Classic Joe.

I care for the win, the margin not so much. It's nice to put up a record score on the Boks but it's worth remembering they're not that good a team. A better team would/will test us more. They'll be a lot further down the rankings by the end of this tour IMO.

Not that I didn't enjoy seeing an Irish team really twist the knife like that. Whats really great is getting so many new faces in the team and seeing them perform.


This is still an SA side that came within a point of NZ a few weeks ago

They lost you mean?. It's the same team who only beat Argentina in TRC
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby offshorerules » November 13th, 2017, 12:12 pm

Hard to find fault with that performance. A few things come to mind for a special mention. That match had Joe's signature written all over it. Murray and Sexton are the best half back pairing in the world in my opinion. Great performances by the younglings but the confidence the two wingers must have got from Kearney was telling also. Rob's positional play was excellent and for a guy that hasn't played for so long to look that composed should shut a few people up for a while. He remains Ireland's best full back.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 13th, 2017, 12:29 pm

the spoofer wrote:One of our two Saffa's (Herring) scored more that their 23 put together.

They were awful but ref was poor too. He needed a lot of help from his assistants. The penalty against Kolisi for kicking the ball was mad. The ref called ball out so ruck over, Kolisi kicks the ball, he penalised him for kicking the ball and then realised he had screwed up so said it was for not coming through the gate.


No the penalty was for kicking the ball. The confusion was because he momentarily forgot the new law and only remembered when the Irish players reminded him. He had said the ball was out and then Etzebeth asked if there had been a ruck and the ref said there was, but it was nothing to do with coming in from the side. I don't think that law comes into force in the Southern Hemisphere until January.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby suisse » November 13th, 2017, 1:36 pm

I know we often make fun of what those in the media say, but this article is so uninspiring.

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41961575

At the bottom it says, "Jeremy Guscott was speaking to BBC Sport's Caroline Chapman" which might explain how's there's no flow to it, at all.

"I remember Gregor Townsend, the new Scotland coach, as a player. I played with him on the 1997 Lions tour and also against him for our countries and the scoreline very much reflects him as a player. His mentality is 'if you score four, I'm going to score five'." Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz how dull is this material?
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Logorrhea » November 13th, 2017, 1:40 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:No the penalty was for kicking the ball. The confusion was because he momentarily forgot the new law and only remembered when the Irish players reminded him.


Yeah that one was a bit messy, he probably should have let it go as he had called the ball out. That was the only real error he made. Overall I thought he was pretty good. He used his assistants well and the TMO wasn't needed once if I remember correctly. I think he was a bit generous to us in the scrums but the South Africans were the architects of their own downfall. Players making the kind of bad decisions and giving away stupid cheap penalties that cost them territory and pressure. Joe would drop players for that, yet these guys continue to get selected.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby neiliog93 » November 13th, 2017, 2:53 pm

It's really interesting to see a lot of people online indulging Bok excuses around racial quotas. I will grant them that arguably their coach is sub-par and this is down to quotas.

Now, let's look at the non-white players in the team, ignoring the coaching staff. Pollard arrived with much fanfare two years but then proceeded to spectacularly lose form and have injury problems. Nonetheless, he probably should be ahead of Janjtees for the 10 jersey in terms of picking on merit, but they can still bring him off the bench.

Beast Mtawarira was one of their best players against us and has been outstanding for a decade; he deserves his place. Kolisi had a brilliant Super Rugby campaign and has been spoken of as a leader in their camp. He's an outstanding athlete and certainly deserves his place ahead of any white player.

De Allende was previously brilliant, and and is back in the team now after returning from injury for that reason and also because Serfontein asked to sit out the tour to integrate at Montpellier. Van Rensburg (not sure if he's injured or not) would be a credible white alternative but given De Allende's destructiveness a season or two ago, he's easy to include. Skosan and Lleyds are very fast and dangerous, amongst the best in Super Rugby, but arguably someone more secure like Ruan Combrinck should be in ahead of one of them, but other than possibly one of these two and Janjtees, there are no non-white players getting picked who don't deserve to be there.

And yet, we're spun this narrative about transformation ruining the team....do 1 or 2 players who shouldn't be there and maybe the coach cause the team to lose 38-3? It's absolutely nonsense, and reading the comments you'd swear all of the 6-7 non-white players selected are useless and the white alternatives are demi-gods, but that is absolutely not the case.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Dave Cahill » November 13th, 2017, 3:31 pm

The reality is that there hasn't been a Springbok team picked on merit since 1948 at least - but they had their chance to correct the situation and blew it and now they have to live with the consequences.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Oldschool » November 13th, 2017, 5:49 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:The reality is that there hasn't been a Springbok team picked on merit since 1948 at least - but they had their chance to correct the situation and blew it and now they have to live with the consequences.

You could say exactly the same thing about Ireland before Joe came along with perhaps only Mick Doyle getting honourable mention before Joe.
You'd could go back a bit further than 1948 too.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby simonokeeffe » November 13th, 2017, 6:18 pm

Neilog is bang on about the coach rather than the players

The admin is a huge problem too. Picking Meyer as a coach before Coetzee was a glaringly bad decision.

They have a world class front 5 that would demolish most teams by themselves. They also have the backrow stocks to have a world class pack.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Oldschool » November 13th, 2017, 6:52 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Neilog is bang on about the coach rather than the players

The admin is a huge problem too. Picking Meyer as a coach before Coetzee was a glaringly bad decision.

They have a world class front 5 that would demolish most teams by themselves. They also have the backrow stocks to have a world class pack.

What they longer have tho is a pack that can absolutely trounce opposition packs. Other teams have world class front fives too not to mention back rows.
The Irish pack for example is no longer easy meat for any team, ask NZ about the last three times they've played us, their pack has played second fiddle to ours in those games.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Dave Cahill » November 13th, 2017, 8:35 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:
They have a world class front 5 that would demolish most teams by themselves. They also have the backrow stocks to have a world class pack.


No, they don't. They have a lot of big guys, but they're thick as day old soup. They aren't even that strong physically in relation to their size because their conditioning is dreadful
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby neiliog93 » November 13th, 2017, 8:54 pm

Their tight-heads are rubbish and they have no depth at hooker.

Ruan Dreyer was the most penalised player in Super Rugby in 2017 and was regularly trounced in the scrum in the Rugby Championship. Oosthuizen is powerful but lazy and overweight. Ditto Nyakane. There's a theme here: Wilco Louw might be 133 kg but he's carrying at least 10 kg too much body fat to be even competent at international level. His scrummaging is poor, he doesn't carry particularly effectively and he's simply not fit enough to contribute much around the field.

Marx is possibly the best hooker in the world. After him, they're all badly sub-par.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby paddyor » November 13th, 2017, 10:05 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:
They have a world class front 5 that would demolish most teams by themselves. They also have the backrow stocks to have a world class pack.


No, they don't. They have a lot of big guys, but they're thick as day old soup. They aren't even that strong physically in relation to their size because their conditioning is dreadful

This has been my big take away from watching us play them under Schmidt. Special mention to Duane Vermuluen. If you don't get bowled over by their physicality you'll beat them, and as you say they don't even seem as physical.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby simonokeeffe » November 13th, 2017, 10:51 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:
They have a world class front 5 that would demolish most teams by themselves. They also have the backrow stocks to have a world class pack.


No, they don't. They have a lot of big guys, but they're thick as day old soup. They aren't even that strong physically in relation to their size because their conditioning is dreadful


Hopefully Munster's internationals dont go down that route
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Oldschool » November 13th, 2017, 11:37 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:
They have a world class front 5 that would demolish most teams by themselves. They also have the backrow stocks to have a world class pack.


No, they don't. They have a lot of big guys, but they're thick as day old soup. They aren't even that strong physically in relation to their size because their conditioning is dreadful


Hopefully Munster's internationals dont go down that route

Have no fear Schmidt is here.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby matt » November 14th, 2017, 12:39 am

neiliog93 wrote:

Marx is possibly the best hooker in the world. After him, they're all badly sub-par.


With Dane Coles out long term again after French match last weekend Marx is close to the best at the moment but within 12-18 months Asafo Aumua (20) could be the best hooker in the world. He is a serious prospect.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby leinsterforever » November 14th, 2017, 1:18 am

On the subject of the quality of SA's forwards, I think Etzebeth is quite overhyped. He doesn't have a whole lot to his game. Jaco Kriel (he injured?) is excellent, and I like what I've seen of Teboho Mohoje at blindside. Marx looks pretty good.

Erasmus will presumably ensure that their forwards are better drilled than they were on Saturday. I'm sure they'll be tough beats if Ireland meet them in the World Cup quarters.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Dave Cahill » November 14th, 2017, 1:49 am

leinsterforever wrote:Erasmus will presumably ensure that their forwards are better drilled than they were on Saturday. I'm sure they'll be tough beats if Ireland meet them in the World Cup quarters.


Not that convinced about Erasmus either. How much of Munster's relative success last season was down to the emotional energy surge and how much was down to him?
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby neiliog93 » November 14th, 2017, 2:15 am

Etzebeth is a weird one. He was definitely overhyped early in his career but in the last couple of seasons has been very good. He was positively awe-inspiring in their 25-24 loss to New Zealand, almost as impactful as Malcolm Marx. Destroyed the New Zealand pack physically, decisively won his collisions against the 130kg Polynesian front rows and dominated Whitelock repeatedly to the point Whitelock looked like a child, not an elite All Black and one of the best second rows in the world.

But then Eztebeth rocks up against Ireland and aside from a few decent carries does nothing for 80 minutes. There was talk of him being injured before the match, so maybe they rushed him back prematurely and he wasn't fully fit.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa AI 2017.

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 14th, 2017, 7:35 am

neiliog93 wrote:Etzebeth is a weird one. He was definitely overhyped early in his career but in the last couple of seasons has been very good. He was positively awe-inspiring in their 25-24 loss to New Zealand, almost as impactful as Malcolm Marx. Destroyed the New Zealand pack physically, decisively won his collisions against the 130kg Polynesian front rows and dominated Whitelock repeatedly to the point Whitelock looked like a child, not an elite All Black and one of the best second rows in the world.

But then Eztebeth rocks up against Ireland and aside from a few decent carries does nothing for 80 minutes. There was talk of him being injured before the match, so maybe they rushed him back prematurely and he wasn't fully fit.


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