Ireland 6 Nations 2018

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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby Oldschool » January 25th, 2018, 7:19 pm

wixfjord wrote:
ronk wrote:This shouldnt be controversial. There's form and history.

It's a black mark against Zebo that he's allowed (caused) there to be a fuss that's disruptive.

The policy isn't new and isn't Joe's, he's just the guy tasked with enforcing it. He has the trust that he could make an exception, but he doesnt want to play that card (or has to toe the line publicly).

Zebo is not strategically critical, he didnt even make the Lions.


There's nothing controversial about dropping Zebo because he's going to France and has had some stupid recent stuff to say.

But Schmidt has chosen to give the reason as his form in one game. That's either blatantly untrue, or else it's incredibly out of character for Schmidt.

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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby ronk » January 25th, 2018, 7:54 pm

He gave one example of a game. He never said that he was dropping Zebo for one poor game.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby wixfjord » January 25th, 2018, 8:01 pm

ronk wrote:He gave one example of a game. He never said that he was dropping Zebo for one poor game.


He said the following

"Simon is great value to have in the squad and he's got an irresistible charm about him, he's always smiling and his positivity is great. But by his own standards, he didn't have a great day in Paris (against Racing) a couple of weeks ago. There was some wayward passing, some turnovers that he'd look back at and be frustrated with himself. It's crucial at the time of selection that we know guys are in good form. There's a bit of time during the Six Nations with the PRO14 games that he can still strike a claim."

So he literally gave the example of the game, and said that 'it's crucial at the time of selection that we know guys are in good form'.

Regardless of whether it's one game or not, do you honestly believe that he has dropped him because of form and not for the other reasons?
Was form the reason in the AI aswell?

How does that tally with Joey Carbery or John Ryan's selection?

Come on, we all know Schmidt is not being truthful here. It would be true bias to not admit that. The man is not infallible!
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby CiaranIrl » January 25th, 2018, 9:08 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:
He didn't say that in fairness. He said he didn't pick him because (i) if he came to Spain, he would have to go back for the weekend to play, and it was too complicated, and (ii) Because he has nearly twice as many minutes as the other second row options. He has 1450 minutes or something and Toner is next on 900.


Oh come on,that's ridicuously pedantic.

Both of those things are...because he's with the Scarlets.


I'm not being pedantic! Its not that he's been left out simply because he plays for the Scarlets, he's left out because of the conditions caused by playing for the Scarlets. If that's not different, why did Sexton negotiate a release clause at Racing?
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby hugonaut » January 25th, 2018, 9:25 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
suisse wrote:Schmidt's reason for not selecting Zebo is dishonest, and I don't think anyone could say otherwise.


Not disagreeing with you here but the alternative of refusing to answer would not be acceptable either. Journos and twitter users do not accept the refusal. The journos would push, he'd have to become entrenched in his refusal to select xfactor and the headlines would be about Schmidt's refusal to address the issue in a tense press conference. This would be followed by editorials about Schmidt's deteriorating relationship with the media, rumors from within the IRFU about Schmidt etc. Twitter would be going mad. Look at Martin O'Neills latest headline.

I mean what if Joe had actually told the truth. What if he said that he didn't pick xfactor because xfactor had opted out of the world cup in order to earn more cash, and now he has two years to find a replacement? Would that response be accepted? It would in its shite.

We have created a situation where the non-answer or the lie is the only acceptable answer because anything else is trouble to the responder. Sean O'Brien opened his mouth and voices an opinion on the Lions and he was in trouble, he supposedly shouldn't have said anything. Joe opens his mouth and he's a liar, he shouldn't have said anything. Chris Henry voices an opinion about Munster and he's a hypocrite, he shouldn't have said anything. POM voices an opinion about his teammate and he's supporting Munster's policy on signing players he had nothing to do with.

They all lie all the time, or just offer bland answers because when they tell the truth we crucify them for it. Our problem here seems to be that we want a better lie.


Well said.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby paddyor » January 25th, 2018, 9:26 pm

wixfjord wrote:
ronk wrote:He gave one example of a game. He never said that he was dropping Zebo for one poor game.


He said the following

"Simon is great value to have in the squad and he's got an irresistible charm about him, he's always smiling and his positivity is great. But by his own standards, he didn't have a great day in Paris (against Racing) a couple of weeks ago. There was some wayward passing, some turnovers that he'd look back at and be frustrated with himself. It's crucial at the time of selection that we know guys are in good form. There's a bit of time during the Six Nations with the PRO14 games that he can still strike a claim."

So he literally gave the example of the game, and said that 'it's crucial at the time of selection that we know guys are in good form'.

Regardless of whether it's one game or not, do you honestly believe that he has dropped him because of form and not for the other reasons?
Was form the reason in the AI aswell?

How does that tally with Joey Carbery or John Ryan's selection?

Come on, we all know Schmidt is not being truthful here. It would be true bias to not admit that. The man is not infallible!

That doesn't contradict ronk. Would it be more acceptable if he listed all the games? The interpros etc.Against that, he showed up well in a 48-3 romp.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby wixfjord » January 25th, 2018, 9:51 pm

paddyor wrote:That doesn't contradict ronk. Would it be more acceptable if he listed all the games? The interpros etc.Against that, he showed up well in a 48-3 romp.


That's fine, whatever way you want to read it.

It would be more acceptable to me if Schmidt gave the actual reason and didn't fudge it, but each to their own.

As I've asked Ronk, do you actually believe it's a matter of form with Zebo, and that's the reason he has been left out of both the 6N and AI squads?
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby fourthirtythree » January 25th, 2018, 10:09 pm

Logorrhea wrote: Our problem here seems to be that we want a better lie.


Moar better lies please!

To be fair that's why we like art in a way.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby Oldschool » January 25th, 2018, 11:30 pm

wixfjord wrote:
paddyor wrote:That doesn't contradict ronk. Would it be more acceptable if he listed all the games? The interpros etc.Against that, he showed up well in a 48-3 romp.


That's fine, whatever way you want to read it.

It would be more acceptable to me if Schmidt gave the actual reason and didn't fudge it, but each to their own.

As I've asked Ronk, do you actually believe it's a matter of form with Zebo, and that's the reason he has been left out of both the 6N and AI squads?

Perhaps this might help.
Joe told the truth, the whole truth but not all at the same.
He didn't select Zebo once Zebo had indicated he was leaving for France.
The truth in that action speaks louder than words.
IRFU policy is to prioritise home based players.
JS will adhere to that policy except in exceptional circumstances.
Implicit in JS' comments re Zebo's form is that this is not "an exceptional circumstances" situation.
JS simply didn't feel the need to spell out the whole cause and effect sequence involved in arriving at his comments re Zebo's form.
Simply ask yourself "Are JS comments inconsistent with IRFU policy".
If the answer is "No" then JS is only doing the job he is being paid to do.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby ronk » January 26th, 2018, 12:41 am

wixfjord wrote:
paddyor wrote:That doesn't contradict ronk. Would it be more acceptable if he listed all the games? The interpros etc.Against that, he showed up well in a 48-3 romp.


That's fine, whatever way you want to read it.

It would be more acceptable to me if Schmidt gave the actual reason and didn't fudge it, but each to their own.

As I've asked Ronk, do you actually believe it's a matter of form with Zebo, and that's the reason he has been left out of both the 6N and AI squads?


Kidney picked Jennings sometimes, but generally dropped him when he got the chance. He wanted something different in a player.

I’ve never felt based on Schmidt’s selection history that joe was a fan of Zebo. He recognizes the talent and has said as much, but he wants compliance with the match plan above that. Every other player in Ireland, except TOH, does what they’re told by Joe.

That’s one reason who Zebo would have been looking at leaving. He’d have made tournament squads if he had stayed but he has been slipping and might not be making match day squads.

Leaving Munster has hurt his chances and Joe hasn’t claimed otherwise, he has pointed to form too though. A guy who’s playing and is doing the wrong things on the pitch is in bad form. A guy who’s been injured and is coming back is a risk, and might be rusty but isn’t in bad form necessarily.

It’s entirely consistent at all times from Schmidt and I think he’s been very forthright with Irish rugby fans. Exceptions are allowed in certain circumstances and they were made once when we lost a player through IRFU error and before the rules tightened as more players tried moving. Some people see an exception as a reason to expect the rules to loosen, whereas if the rules are still in place then they must be enforced more rigidly to amend the breach.

Ryan was able to delay the news and get a 6N, but he was cut for the summer tour when it was confirmed. Moore and Madigan have been out. None of the returning Irish players made the summer tour but Farrell was used in the AIs.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 26th, 2018, 12:42 am

CiaranIrl wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:
He didn't say that in fairness. He said he didn't pick him because (i) if he came to Spain, he would have to go back for the weekend to play, and it was too complicated, and (ii) Because he has nearly twice as many minutes as the other second row options. He has 1450 minutes or something and Toner is next on 900.


Oh come on,that's ridicuously pedantic.

Both of those things are...because he's with the Scarlets.


I'm not being pedantic! Its not that he's been left out simply because he plays for the Scarlets, he's left out because of the conditions caused by playing for the Scarlets. If that's not different, why did Sexton negotiate a release clause at Racing?


That is very pedantic. Neither of us are thick and you knew what I meant. Picking me up on that comment unnecessarily makes me think you were saying I had an agenda and wasn't telling the full story IMO.

Unless you thought I was suggesting that Joe had a vendetta against the Scarlets and felt the need to clarify that then it was pedantic.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby suisse » January 26th, 2018, 7:34 am

Logorrhea wrote:
suisse wrote:Schmidt's reason for not selecting Zebo is dishonest, and I don't think anyone could say otherwise.


Not disagreeing with you here but the alternative of refusing to answer would not be acceptable either. Journos and twitter users do not accept the refusal. The journos would push, he'd have to become entrenched in his refusal to select xfactor and the headlines would be about Schmidt's refusal to address the issue in a tense press conference. This would be followed by editorials about Schmidt's deteriorating relationship with the media, rumors from within the IRFU about Schmidt etc. Twitter would be going mad. Look at Martin O'Neills latest headline.


I think a non answer would be best. I disagree that "journos do not accept the refusal." They get stock answers all the time, look at the 6 Nations media days in general. I regularly hear journalists complaining that at official launches, managers and players are programmed to say absolutely nothing (apart from Eddie Jones). Do we really expect the likes of Gerry Thornley to hammer Schmidt on this? The regular journalists covering Ireland have it very cosy. The only sniping from a non answer would be by people such as Eamon Sweeney and Franno, writing opinion pieces.

For me, it would have been much better if Schmidt either (1) told the truth (We're not picking Zebo because he's moving to Paris) but you leave yourself wide open if the likes of Murray and Furlong leave (you could say that Sexton situation will never be repeated) or (2) just said nothing (Simon Zebo is a great player but we've a lot of players in good form at the moment and we've seen the emergence of someone like Jordan Larmour this season). He could have totally turned it around and further talked up other players even further.

I don't get the other examples at all. They're irrelevant. As I said, I'd either want an honest answer or just some cr@p because I never listen to interviews anyway.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby bamboozle » January 26th, 2018, 8:50 am

Logorrhea wrote:
suisse wrote:Schmidt's reason for not selecting Zebo is dishonest, and I don't think anyone could say otherwise.


Not disagreeing with you here but the alternative of refusing to answer would not be acceptable either. Journos and twitter users do not accept the refusal. The journos would push, he'd have to become entrenched in his refusal to select xfactor and the headlines would be about Schmidt's refusal to address the issue in a tense press conference. This would be followed by editorials about Schmidt's deteriorating relationship with the media, rumors from within the IRFU about Schmidt etc. Twitter would be going mad. Look at Martin O'Neills latest headline.

I mean what if Joe had actually told the truth. What if he said that he didn't pick xfactor because xfactor had opted out of the world cup in order to earn more cash, and now he has two years to find a replacement? Would that response be accepted? It would in its shite.

We have created a situation where the non-answer or the lie is the only acceptable answer because anything else is trouble to the responder. Sean O'Brien opened his mouth and voices an opinion on the Lions and he was in trouble, he supposedly shouldn't have said anything. Joe opens his mouth and he's a liar, he shouldn't have said anything. Chris Henry voices an opinion about Munster and he's a hypocrite, he shouldn't have said anything. POM voices an opinion about his teammate and he's supporting Munster's policy on signing players he had nothing to do with.

They all lie all the time, or just offer bland answers because when they tell the truth we crucify them for it. Our problem here seems to be that we want a better lie.


Very well put. Living abroad my main rugby feed has been through 2nd captains and OTB, unfortunately for different reasons i'm finding them hard to take these days. Joe Molloy is rubbish on OTB, when Zebo didnt make the AIs they ran that storyline hysterically and did it again the other night with Wood and Toland.

For me it is quite simple
He's moving to France, unavailable for world cup
He's never guaranteed a start under JS
His try record for 6Ns is p1ss poor
His recent performances have seen lots of lose passes, kicks and turnovers
Stockdate, Conway, Larmour have had great seasons and JS needs to invest time in them now to ensure they're ready for WC alongside Earls

IRFU gotta keep this policy as strict as possible to keep players in the 4 provinces.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby CiaranIrl » January 26th, 2018, 9:26 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
That is very pedantic. Neither of us are thick and you knew what I meant. Picking me up on that comment unnecessarily makes me think you were saying I had an agenda and wasn't telling the full story IMO.

Unless you thought I was suggesting that Joe had a vendetta against the Scarlets and felt the need to clarify that then it was pedantic.


That's not what I meant at all. I'm not trying to imply anything or say you were saying anything. I'm probably just defensive about Schmidt because he's getting a lot a flak all over the place, even here.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 26th, 2018, 9:49 am

ronk wrote:He gave one example of a game. He never said that he was dropping Zebo for one poor game.


+1.
There were five out of the last seven games he could have cited.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby wixfjord » January 26th, 2018, 10:13 am

ronk wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
paddyor wrote:That doesn't contradict ronk. Would it be more acceptable if he listed all the games? The interpros etc.Against that, he showed up well in a 48-3 romp.


That's fine, whatever way you want to read it.

It would be more acceptable to me if Schmidt gave the actual reason and didn't fudge it, but each to their own.

As I've asked Ronk, do you actually believe it's a matter of form with Zebo, and that's the reason he has been left out of both the 6N and AI squads?


Kidney picked Jennings sometimes, but generally dropped him when he got the chance. He wanted something different in a player.

I’ve never felt based on Schmidt’s selection history that joe was a fan of Zebo. He recognizes the talent and has said as much, but he wants compliance with the match plan above that. Every other player in Ireland, except TOH, does what they’re told by Joe.

That’s one reason who Zebo would have been looking at leaving. He’d have made tournament squads if he had stayed but he has been slipping and might not be making match day squads.

Leaving Munster has hurt his chances and Joe hasn’t claimed otherwise, he has pointed to form too though. A guy who’s playing and is doing the wrong things on the pitch is in bad form. A guy who’s been injured and is coming back is a risk, and might be rusty but isn’t in bad form necessarily.

It’s entirely consistent at all times from Schmidt and I think he’s been very forthright with Irish rugby fans. Exceptions are allowed in certain circumstances and they were made once when we lost a player through IRFU error and before the rules tightened as more players tried moving. Some people see an exception as a reason to expect the rules to loosen, whereas if the rules are still in place then they must be enforced more rigidly to amend the breach.

Ryan was able to delay the news and get a 6N, but he was cut for the summer tour when it was confirmed. Moore and Madigan have been out. None of the returning Irish players made the summer tour but Farrell was used in the AIs.


It absolutely is not.

As I've said, Schmidt has never been one to pick on form. History shows that consistently. This squad shows that.

You didn't answer my question either.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby Laighin Break » January 26th, 2018, 10:28 am

wixfjord wrote:
ronk wrote:He gave one example of a game. He never said that he was dropping Zebo for one poor game.


He said the following

"Simon is great value to have in the squad and he's got an irresistible charm about him, he's always smiling and his positivity is great. But by his own standards, he didn't have a great day in Paris (against Racing) a couple of weeks ago. There was some wayward passing, some turnovers that he'd look back at and be frustrated with himself. It's crucial at the time of selection that we know guys are in good form. There's a bit of time during the Six Nations with the PRO14 games that he can still strike a claim."

So he literally gave the example of the game, and said that 'it's crucial at the time of selection that we know guys are in good form'.

Regardless of whether it's one game or not, do you honestly believe that he has dropped him because of form and not for the other reasons?
Was form the reason in the AI aswell?

How does that tally with Joey Carbery or John Ryan's selection?

Come on, we all know Schmidt is not being truthful here. It would be true bias to not admit that. The man is not infallible!


In fairness, Carbery does actually have X Factor...
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby Peg Leg » January 26th, 2018, 10:35 am

What a place to be for Irish rugby. One of the highest paid players in world rugby is dropped from the national squad and our biggest concern is, why the coach tell the public something better.

Fact is, we don't need to know. Zebo does though and im sure he knows well why he was excluded from the squad.
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby simonokeeffe » January 26th, 2018, 10:47 am

Peg Leg wrote:What a place to be for Irish rugby. One of the highest paid players in world rugby is dropped from the national squad and our biggest concern is, why the coach tell the public something better.

Fact is, we don't need to know. Zebo does though and im sure he knows well why he was excluded from the squad.


Yeah injury wise we are doing pretty well, especially compared to the other teams
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Re: Ireland 6 Nations 2018

Postby Dexter » January 26th, 2018, 1:38 pm

Peg Leg wrote:What a place to be for Irish rugby. One of the highest paid players in world rugby is dropped from the national squad and our biggest concern is, why the coach tell the public something better.

Fact is, we don't need to know. Zebo does though and im sure he knows well why he was excluded from the squad.

Exactly. I'm surprised anyone cares what a coach says in an interview.
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