France v Ireland 4.45pm Sat 3rd February 2018

[paddyor]

Results that don't suit the narrative will be ignored. You can also ignore the conditions which you know it's generally smart to play. The weather really turned on us last season at home.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Dropkick's got a point though. Our attack is really not that great these days. Did we look like scoring a try yesterday?
How will we cope against Wales? We'ed better stymie their attack because we don't seem to have any.

+1 - drop kicks sample is perfectly valid - the real opponents in the 6N.

[paddyor]

Dropkick's got a point though. Our attack is really not that great these days. Did we look like scoring a try yesterday?
How will we cope against Wales? We'ed better stymie their attack because we don't seem to have any.

See I think pinging the corners in those conditions is a better bet than trying to fashion something off sloppy ball. France were very good at keeping us out of scoring range and slowing our ball. They missed less tackles than we did despite making more than twice as many as us. I think we'd one maybe 2 good attacking set pieces deep in their half. We pushed them to a yc twice both of which Owens bottled having warned them 5 mins earlier.

If you're a player, then the plan is working right up until the 73rd minute. I think people underestimate the extent to which the players drive what's happening on the pitch. Our defense was also brilliant for the most part. I would hope that players are coached to play the percnetages in a one score game, in those conditions where defenses are on top. More wins in Paris in the past 4 years than the previous 40

[Oldschool]

The end justifies the means.
We nearly lost yesterday because we gave them a couple of cheap penalties and didn't press home (mucked up) a few of our own opportunities.
They had no right to be still in the game at the death.
Why they were is the question to be asked.
Did they play the conditions better.
Why did we stop picking and going.
We took a few options with poor possession.
Clean up and go again especially in the conditions where a 50/50 option was a guaranteed turnover.
Once again we were too fearful or respectful of France.

[paddyor]

Dropkick's got a point though. Our attack is really not that great these days. Did we look like scoring a try yesterday?
How will we cope against Wales? We'ed better stymie their attack because we don't seem to have any.

+1 - drop kicks sample is perfectly valid - the real opponents in the 6N.

Yeah putting 50+ on Italy next week won't really prove anything a bit like beating France in a slog fest isn't really a definitive indicator of attacking prowess.

[blockhead]

Dropkick's got a point though. Our attack is really not that great these days. Did we look like scoring a try yesterday?
How will we cope against Wales? We'ed better stymie their attack because we don't seem to have any.

See I think pinging the corners in those conditions is a better bet than trying to fashion something off sloppy ball. France were very good at keeping us out of scoring range and slowing our ball. They missed less tackles than we did despite making more than twice as many as us. I think we'd one maybe 2 good attacking set pieces deep in their half. We pushed them to a yc twice both of which Owens bottled having warned them 5 mins earlier.

If you're a player, then the plan is working right up until the 73rd minute. I think people underestimate the extent to which the players drive what's happening on the pitch. Our defense was also brilliant for the most part. I would hope that players are coached to play the percnetages in a one score game, in those conditions where defenses are on top. More wins in Paris in the past 4 years than the previous 40

When Joe was with Leinster, we were spectacular.
Ireland under Joe, not so much.
And it seems to me to be getting more and more "bosh".
I know we beat the All Blacks, SA over there etc, but our game seems to be increasingly attritional.
It's not like we don't have the players.

[paddyor]

Schmidt also varied his approach, regularly had an away team (which was really only 2-3 changes) for a tighter away game. Had the benefit of playing against teams Considerably weaker than Scotland or Italy with a far better squad than the teams Leinster faced. Though according to dropkick and OSS those don't count so you need to scrub that from your memory.

I think people tend to forget how central our set piece was to our attack

[Oldschoolsocks]

Schmidt also varied his approach, regularly had an away team (which was really only 2-3 changes) for a tighter away game. Had the benefit of playing against teams Considerably weaker than Scotland or Italy with a far better squad than the teams Leinster faced. Though according to dropkick and OSS those don't count so you need to scrub that from your memory.

I think people tend to forget how central our set piece was to our attack

Hold on now paddy, dk asked a perfectly valid question about a perfectly valid subset and there is definitely room to consider why we have trouble scoring tries against France, England and Wales.

Ive never suggested that we scrub our good results from memory.

That is all...

[paddyor]

From where I'm standing, he cherry picked a few opponents (no mention of any of the SH teams). Like most teams, we struggle in wet conditions (10-9 vs France, 13-13 vs Wales, 13-9 vs England, 13-15 vs France). You seeing a pattern there? Even the England away game we lost we left chances on the field (VdF getting held up).

TBH, aside from Wales last year (and they did a good number on the much vaunted English attack in defense the week before) I think our attack is mostly fine. And funny enough I thought it was handling errors that really let us down in that one and people think we need to chuck it about more.

[RoboProp]

Without Seanie and Ringer we can seem to struggle against physically larger teams to innovate in attack.
Healy was used as a ball carrier a lot and they had that figured out fairly lively. POM went to the PoC school of carrying "all show, and no go". On the back of his performance I'd give Conan or Jordi a look against Italy.

I'd posit starting Nugget over Best against Italy, and Larmour over Stockdale. I think with those two we would see something different in attack. Give Best a break, I know he's captain but he's getting on.

It's a very Leinster looking team with those edits. Joe would be lynched

[artaneboy]

Without Seanie and Ringer we can seem to struggle against physically larger teams to innovate in attack.
Healy was used as a ball carrier a lot and they had that figured out fairly lively. POM went to the PoC school of carrying "all show, and no go". On the back of his performance I'd give Conan or Jordi a look against Italy.

I'd posit starting Nugget over Best against Italy, and Larmour over Stockdale. I think with those two we would see something different in attack. Give Best a break, I know he's captain but he's getting on.

It's a very Leinster looking team with those edits. Joe would be lynched

I think that’s a fair analysis of the problems- and I also agree with your suggested changes. And of course- you’re right, they’ll never happen.

More generally, it is undeniable that our attack has been more limited and unproductive in the 6 Ns. The AIs were very good this year (and good in previous seasons)- but maybe out nearest and dearest rivals have us- and the refs figured out better.

Whatever- it’s not going to be good enough if we want to win a championship- never mind a Grand Slam. Those trying to deny the obvious and ridicule posters saying where the blame lies, need to back off.


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[Oldschoolsocks]

From where I'm standing, he cherry picked a few opponents (no mention of any of the SH teams). Like most teams, we struggle in wet conditions (10-9 vs France, 13-13 vs Wales, 13-9 vs England, 13-15 vs France). You seeing a pattern there? Even the England away game we lost we left chances on the field (VdF getting held up).

TBH, aside from Wales last year (and they did a good number on the much vaunted English attack in defense the week before) I think our attack is mostly fine. And funny enough I thought it was handling errors that really let us down in that one and people think we need to chuck it about more.

Fair enough Paddy - but imo it’s perfectly valid to look at the sample of France, England and West England as they are the teams that are most familiar with us and who we have had the most competitive tests with in recent years. The question is valid, maybe the answer is that our attack is mostly fine tbh, I think we struggle to open up teams when they are allowed to slow down our ruck ball and mr Owens was inept in reffing that aspect of the game for whatever reason on Saturday.

[RoboProp]

Myriad of factors; conditions and Nigel's laissez-faire policing of the breakdown. It denied us quick ruck ball. If we had that QRB we so love then we'd have been a different team in attack.

[Laighin Break]

No point questioning the players, they were just following instructions. It's the man who set the team up to play that cr@p that should be questioned.


That's a team of in form, confident Irish players but despite having 2/3rds of possession they made 0 linebreaks and never came close to scoring a try. The most negative team in world rugby.

Ah there's nothing like an Irish rugby fan for a bit of kneejerkism.

2018 tries
Vs France 0

2017 tries
Vs France 1. Vs Wales 0. Vs England 1.

2016 tries
Vs Wales 1. Vs France 0. Vs England 1.

2015 tries
Vs France 0. Vs England 1. Vs Wales 1.

2014 tries
Vs Wales 2. Vs England 1. Vs France 3.


That's shocking. In the last 10 matches against the big 3, Ireland have scored 6 tries in total. In the last 4 matches against France just 1 (one!) try.

Keep in mind Schmidt is the attack coach.

Blaming the ref or individual players is missing the point. Irelands attack is shyte. They're coached not to take any chances and it certainly shows in the try scoring record.

Looking at it another way - The last 4 years against the 'Big 3'.
We have scored 4 tries against England, England have scored 4 against us
We have scored 3 tries against Wales, Wales have scored 5 against us
We have scored 6 tries against France in (including 2 in the World Cup). France have scored 5 against us.

So I guess everyone's attack is shyte.

[dropkick]

From where I'm standing, he cherry picked a few opponents (no mention of any of the SH teams). Like most teams, we struggle in wet conditions (10-9 vs France, 13-13 vs Wales, 13-9 vs England, 13-15 vs France). You seeing a pattern there? Even the England away game we lost we left chances on the field (VdF getting held up).

I picked those teams because it highlights a big weakness in Ireland's game. Those teams are our big rivals.


The last time we met a SH team in a competition was Argentina in the world cup. Argentina being the weakest SH team.

[offshorerules]

So I can live with the decision regarding Kearney being taken out off the ball, I can live with the HIA's, and I can live with not policing the rucks. But the decision to penalise Henshaw if the first half for not rolling away 'quickly' enough and then not to penalise about 6 French players for the same offence seems bizarre to me. That said I will still be glad to see Nigel if he is referee for any more of our matches. Think everyone has a bad day every now and then. Speaking of which I think there are a few Irish players that will be keeping their heads down at today's video session. If Heaslip, O'Brien and Ringrose were all fit they would all come straight back in. Also there would be an argument for both wings to be changed. Earls' tackling was pathetic and Stockdale's positioning was poor also. Furlong's importance to the team was clearly demonstrated when Ryan came on also so we need him to keep fit. I thought James Ryan did very well as did Henderson in the row though. Overall I think I would give the team 10 out of 10 for effort and 5 out of 10 for achievement. That being said a win in Paris.....

[neiliog93]

From where I'm standing, he cherry picked a few opponents (no mention of any of the SH teams). Like most teams, we struggle in wet conditions (10-9 vs France, 13-13 vs Wales, 13-9 vs England, 13-15 vs France). You seeing a pattern there? Even the England away game we lost we left chances on the field (VdF getting held up).

I picked those teams because it highlights a big weakness in Ireland's game. Those teams are our big rivals.


The last time we met a SH team in a competition was Argentina in the world cup. Argentina being the weakest SH team.

1.There are no friendlies in rugby.
2.Overall, our attack was poor in 2016-17, definitely. But the Autumn Internationals showed it had evolved a lot. But a big French who are successfully slowing down the ball in awful conditions in Paris with a helpful referee is just not the time for throwing the ball around. I am 100% confident that if we get halfway decent conditions we'll see more attacking verve of the like we showed vs South Africa and Argentina in the Autumn.

[neiliog93]

From where I'm standing, he cherry picked a few opponents (no mention of any of the SH teams). Like most teams, we struggle in wet conditions (10-9 vs France, 13-13 vs Wales, 13-9 vs England, 13-15 vs France). You seeing a pattern there? Even the England away game we lost we left chances on the field (VdF getting held up).

I picked those teams because it highlights a big weakness in Ireland's game. Those teams are our big rivals.


The last time we met a SH team in a competition was Argentina in the world cup. Argentina being the weakest SH team.

1.There are no friendlies in rugby.
2.Overall, our attack was poor in 2016-17, definitely. But the 2017 Autumn Internationals showed it had evolved a lot. However, playing against a big French who are successfully slowing down the ball in awful conditions in Paris (with a helpful referee) is just not the time for throwing the ball around. I am 100% confident that if we get halfway decent conditions we'll see more attacking verve of the like we showed vs South Africa and Argentina in the Autumn.

[dropkick]

2018 tries
Vs France 0

2017 tries
Vs France 1. Vs Wales 0. Vs England 1.

2016 tries
Vs Wales 1. Vs France 0. Vs England 1.

2015 tries
Vs France 0. Vs England 1. Vs Wales 1.

2014 tries
Vs Wales 2. Vs England 1. Vs France 3.


That's shocking. In the last 10 matches against the big 3, Ireland have scored 6 tries in total. In the last 4 matches against France just 1 (one!) try.

Keep in mind Schmidt is the attack coach.

Blaming the ref or individual players is missing the point. Irelands attack is shyte. They're coached not to take any chances and it certainly shows in the try scoring record.

Looking at it another way - The last 4 years against the 'Big 3'.
We have scored 4 tries against England, England have scored 4 against us
We have scored 3 tries against Wales, Wales have scored 5 against us
We have scored 6 tries against France in (including 2 in the World Cup). France have scored 5 against us.

So I guess everyone's attack is shyte.

That win at the weekend was the first win away against any of those 4 teams since 2014. In 2014 we beat France away by 2 points. So 2 wins for a grand total of 4 points.
Not to mention losing to Scotland last year although I'd acknowledge that was a one off.


So basically what's happening is Schmidt picks a team to be ultra defensive. (You can be defensive by just holding onto the ball too and generally taking no risks). The game becomes a tight battle which means the referee becomes the most important man on the pitch. Ireland will get the majority of the decisions when playing at home and the minority of the decisions when playing away. Schmidt's home and away records show this.


Going into the France match we had everyone in the media talking down France and up Ireland. Let's face it, Schmidt owes Sexton for that. There's discussions about HIAs, refs, wet weather now but I'm looking a continued pattern.

[RoboProp]

Schmidt out!