France v Ireland 4.45pm Sat 3rd February 2018

[FLIP]

I'd like to drop POM but he's vital for the lineouts

Based on what evidence?

[Leinster Lout]

I'd like to drop POM but he's vital for the lineouts

Based on what evidence?

Based on my perception that he is our best lineout jumper in the backrow - I understand he took 3 on Saturday.

[BlueBlue]

We won, we'll grow into the competition. We won.

[Peg Leg]

The single most annoying and baffling attacking play on saturday was the scrum on their 22 in front of the posts. I was expecting to see clockwork, or magic in a haze of decoy runners and france deconstructed as ireland moved the ball with pace and purpose. What I actually saw was Conor Murray take the ball from the back of the scrum and go himself meaning Conor Murray (the heart beat of the team) was at the bottom if the ruck for the next phase and we were back to wet boshball.

[Oldschool]

The single most annoying and baffling attacking play on saturday was the scrum on their 22 in front of the posts. I was expecting to see clockwork, or magic in a haze of decoy runners and france deconstructed as ireland moved the ball with pace and purpose. What I actually saw was Conor Murray take the ball from the back of the scrum and go himself meaning Conor Murray (the heart beat of the team) was at the bottom if the ruck for the next phase and we were back to wet boshball.

Every so often Murray goes back to his bad old days of taking forever to move the ball.
This was one such day.
Hopefully that's it for this 6Ns.
All we have left to worry about now is Rory having his annual off day at the line out.

[wixfjord]

What I'm doing is pointing out a trend. Has Ireland improved in recent years? Other teams have and I was hoping for some signs at the weekend but despite all the excuses it was the same Ireland as usual.


People talk about the November results. To answer that I say look at Wales' and Scotland's results in November. They were so different that people were seriously talking up Scotland as 6 nations contenders.


I also don't buy the talk that you can't play more attacking rugby at international level. NZ, Australia prove otherwise especially compared to the Boks. England are doing it now too and have been successful. If you have the ball then you should be looking to hurt the opposition, not keep the scoreline down. The Ireland players are capable of more if they're allowed.

When you limit your examples to only the examples that support your point, then that's not a very robust argument in my opinion.

There's a mid point between us being 'the most negative team in the world' and being the Harlem Globetrotters. It doesn't have to be either or.

Our attack improved a lot in the Autumn against SA and Arg.
We tend to score less in the 6N due to a variety of factors, including weather and the more attritional game.
Likewise, we put together some nice set piece moves in the first half that resulted in breaks.
But also our attack needs to improve further and was a bit toothless in the second half. Whether that was down to us, France, Owens, the weather or a combination of all four is hard to pinpoint.

But I'd hold the absolutism until at least the end of the tournament please.

[FLIP]

I'd like to drop POM but he's vital for the lineouts

Based on what evidence?

Based on my perception that he is our best lineout jumper in the backrow - I understand he took 3 on Saturday.

And dropped one. 75% success rate for the media proclaimed god of lineouts is poor.

[fourthirtythree]

We got done in the lineouts on Saturday. And the maul. And our scrum wasn't great in setting a good attacking platform.

[dropkick]

What I'm doing is pointing out a trend. Has Ireland improved in recent years? Other teams have and I was hoping for some signs at the weekend but despite all the excuses it was the same Ireland as usual.


People talk about the November results. To answer that I say look at Wales' and Scotland's results in November. They were so different that people were seriously talking up Scotland as 6 nations contenders.


I also don't buy the talk that you can't play more attacking rugby at international level. NZ, Australia prove otherwise especially compared to the Boks. England are doing it now too and have been successful. If you have the ball then you should be looking to hurt the opposition, not keep the scoreline down. The Ireland players are capable of more if they're allowed.

When you limit your examples to only the examples that support your point, then that's not a very robust argument in my opinion.

There's a mid point between us being 'the most negative team in the world' and being the Harlem Globetrotters. It doesn't have to be either or.

Our attack improved a lot in the Autumn against SA and Arg.
We tend to score less in the 6N due to a variety of factors, including weather and the more attritional game.
Likewise, we put together some nice set piece moves in the first half that resulted in breaks.
But also our attack needs to improve further and was a bit toothless in the second half. Whether that was down to us, France, Owens, the weather or a combination of all four is hard to pinpoint.

But I'd hold the absolutism until at least the end of the tournament please.

There's no absolutism from me. All I've done is highlighted a worrying trend. Would my examples be more accurate if I included matches against Italy and Scotland? I'm sure in that scenario the average number of tries would go from 0.6 to 2 or more but that would paper over the problem I'm talking about ie Ireland need to physically bully teams to score.


EOS was on the radio tonight and said they need to develop their attacking game. He said something like: instead of trying to kick the door down all the time, they need to be able to unlock it too. And I agree. Everyone talks about more ball carriers but when the play is so narrow the defence will also be narrow so there's very little room for the ball carriers. I thought Ireland butchered some chances by trucking it up instead of spreading it wide when there was an opportunity. Stander guilty on a few occasions.


EOS also made a good point in that most of Ireland's 3 pointers came from French stupidity. They were not a result of pressure.


And on a separate note. That last scrum when France won a penalty against John Ryan should have been a penalty to Ireland. They clearly took a few steps to the left and their hooker ended up under Ryan. Before that the Irish scrum should have gotten a few penalties but Nigel reset it.

[paddyor]

What I'm doing is pointing out a trend. Has Ireland improved in recent years? Other teams have and I was hoping for some signs at the weekend but despite all the excuses it was the same Ireland as usual.


People talk about the November results. To answer that I say look at Wales' and Scotland's results in November. They were so different that people were seriously talking up Scotland as 6 nations contenders.


I also don't buy the talk that you can't play more attacking rugby at international level. NZ, Australia prove otherwise especially compared to the Boks. England are doing it now too and have been successful. If you have the ball then you should be looking to hurt the opposition, not keep the scoreline down. The Ireland players are capable of more if they're allowed.

You're wrong though.
Wales scored no tries vs France, Wales Scored 1 try vs England, England got 2(1 off a jammy kick at the death), Frnace scored no tries against Ireland and England Scored no tries against Ireland. I'm just pointing out that selectively choosing stats is a loadofmebo**ox.

Yes, look at Scotland and Wales. Wales tried and failed to open teams up in the AIs. Scotland succeeded and hammered Australia. Wales hammered Scotland, should have nilled them. Scotland beat 19 defenders, 10 clean breaks.......got hammered. Really should have been nilled. I'm angry about that. They deserved to be nilled, raging they scored tbh. Wales will get loads of credit for chucking it about, but mostly they fed off the carcass off a dead Scotland.

I think you underestimate the extent to which the game plan is driven by the players on the pitch. I thought we were fairly game for the first 20 minutes right up until Ryan botched an "offload" to Murray and we ended up on our own 5m line. Thats more than coaching. I reckon that front row and most of the backrow are of a mind that they can win a game without the backs(or Forwards) chucking it about and 9 and 10 are happy to let them at it. France posed zero threat to us with ball in hand. Most of their points came from our mistakes.

[paddyor]

We got done in the lineouts on Saturday. And the maul. And our scrum wasn't great in setting a good attacking platform.

We got done in the lineout and maul against England last year too in all but the score board (7-3 - yes I know where it matters). If you go back and watch, they set up to stop the maul without contesting. They turned us over 3 times on the ground and killed the ball twice from attacking lineouts. The only one they didn't stop was the one we scored IIRC. When you include metres off penos they made far more off the maul but....they'd no territory.

I'm a little worried that our maul is easily defended once you set yourself without contesting. And then when we chuck it off the top it's easy to get in at the receiver(Murray). Difficult conditions but I think we need to vary it a bit more. Like move the point of the maul etc. I'm not sure the answer is Dev. 3 weeks to change it before Wales.

[paddyor]

There's no absolutism from me. All I've done is highlighted a worrying trend. Would my examples be more accurate if I included matches against Italy and Scotland? I'm sure in that scenario the average number of tries would go from 0.6 to 2 or more but that would paper over the problem I'm talking about ie Ireland need to physically bully teams to score.


EOS was on the radio tonight and said they need to develop their attacking game. He said something like: instead of trying to kick the door down all the time, they need to be able to unlock it too. And I agree. Everyone talks about more ball carriers but when the play is so narrow the defence will also be narrow so there's very little room for the ball carriers. I thought Ireland butchered some chances by trucking it up instead of spreading it wide when there was an opportunity. Stander guilty on a few occasions.


EOS also made a good point in that most of Ireland's 3 pointers came from French stupidity. They were not a result of pressure.


And on a separate note. That last scrum when France won a penalty against John Ryan should have been a penalty to Ireland. They clearly took a few steps to the left and their hooker ended up under Ryan. Before that the Irish scrum should have gotten a few penalties but Nigel reset it.

Jones is full of shit in front of a camera man. He'll say anything. It means nothing.

[paddyor]

FWIW, I thought if Ireland were in front going into the final 5 mins, Ryan was a cert for MOTM. Biggest carrier on 60 odd mins, lead the tackle count in the pack (none missed), got the scrum going...some 6n debut. Really impressed with him, he belongs.

[Laighin Break]

I reckon France will do a lot better in this tournament than people originally expected. Maybe then people will accept that it was a good win.

[hugonaut]

I reckon France will do a lot better in this tournament than people originally expected. Maybe then people will accept that it was a good win.

I was quite impressed with them, very impressed when taking into account that their coach had only taken over about a month ago and that their organisation is plagued with problems.

That was one of the fittest French teams I have ever seen, and they played with ferocious spirit and endeavour. The most tackles in the history of the Six Nations and a 94% tackle success rate? If you don't respect that, you're a chump.

If they maintain that level of commitment and that defense remains a foundation, they're going to be extremely tough to beat. They will have to learn how to domore in attack, but they're shorn of some really good attacking players at the moment [notably Fofana and Lopez], and the lack of cohesion in midfield is telling.

[blockhead]

Most tackles by an individual player in Six Nations history
Guilhem Guirado (FRA) v IRE 2018.(31)
Luke Charteris (WAL) v IRE 2015.(31)
Serge Betsen (FRA) v WAL 2002.(27)
Jonny Gray (SCO) v IRE 2017. (27)
Maxime Mbanda (ITA) v WAL 2017. (26)

Most tackles by a team in Six Nations history
FRANCE v Ireland (2018). 253
WALES v Ireland (2015). 250
ITALY v Ireland (2014). 245
SCOTLAND v Ireland (2017). 242
IRELAND v France (2017). 229

[olaf the fat]

I reckon France will do a lot better in this tournament than people originally expected. Maybe then people will accept that it was a good win.

I was quite impressed with them, very impressed when taking into account that their coach had only taken over about a month ago and that their organisation is plagued with problems.

That was one of the fittest French teams I have ever seen, and they played with ferocious spirit and endeavour. The most tackles in the history of the Six Nations and a 94% tackle success rate? If you don't respect that, you're a chump.

If they maintain that level of commitment and that defense remains a foundation, they're going to be extremely tough to beat. They will have to learn how to domore in attack, but they're shorn of some really good attacking players at the moment [notably Fofana and Lopez], and the lack of cohesion in midfield is telling.

They wont have their key guy for all the games though. He really gets them slowing down opposition ball and keeps their line speed right on the edge, manages the discipline and makes sure they don't ship any yellow cards. They wont be the same without Owens.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I reckon France will do a lot better in this tournament than people originally expected. Maybe then people will accept that it was a good win.

I was quite impressed with them, very impressed when taking into account that their coach had only taken over about a month ago and that their organisation is plagued with problems.

That was one of the fittest French teams I have ever seen, and they played with ferocious spirit and endeavour. The most tackles in the history of the Six Nations and a 94% tackle success rate? If you don't respect that, you're a chump.

If they maintain that level of commitment and that defense remains a foundation, they're going to be extremely tough to beat. They will have to learn how to domore in attack, but they're shorn of some really good attacking players at the moment [notably Fofana and Lopez], and the lack of cohesion in midfield is telling.

Saw somewhere that their defence coach was the only coach left over from last year, you'd wonder how he suddenly got things right at the weekend. As much as they were helped by Owens, I agree about their workrate and physicality being really impressive, and sure if you can play the ref that well then good luck to you.

[wixfjord]

There's no absolutism from me.

Eh...

the most negative team in the world

[dropkick]

There's no absolutism from me.

Eh...

the most negative team in the world

You got me!