England v 6 Nations Champions 2018 Twickenham March 17

[Twist]

I really think we have not seen the best of Ireland this six nations. The scary thing for England is, there is still a big game in this Ireland team. You'd have to say that the English looked shot at the end of that France game. They are a great side, but I think to beat a full strength Ireland even at home might be beyond them in this situation, if they can do it, they deserve to be back in second in the world. There is a real feeling for me that this is quite similar to Wales going to Paris on the last day for their last grand slam, it was just daunting cause the Welsh just seemed so strong and had already won in Dublin. I'm finding it very hard to see anything but an Irish victory, I'm trying to think of any player from England who would get into the Irish team at the moment and honestly I cant think of any I'd choose. Not trying to be arrogant, just realistic...

I'm sure we'd at least find a space for Farrell

[Ruckedtobits]

Winning a Grand Slam in Twickenham is not impossible, but it's a very big challenge. In the 72 Seasons since France rejoined the Five Nations competition in 1946, there have only been four occasions on which such a prize could have been claimed.

Firstly the logistical difficulty. England has played it's last game of the Season in Twickenham just less than 50% of those 72 years. Of the 28 Grand Slams accomplished since 1946, England has won seven of those. For the record, France has won Le Grand Chelem on nine occasions since their first in 1968. Wales has won eight. Scotland and Ireland have two each. Italy has won neither Grand Slam or Championship since their entry in 2000. None of the Welsh, Irish or Scottish victories were obtained in Twickenham i.e. the last leg of the Slam was not against England in London. Ireland in fact has never had the opportunity of winning the Slam in Twickenham, but each of the others had their chances during the early 1990's.

Firstly in 1991, France played England in a 'winner take all' game. But, despite France scoring two tries, England, through the boot of Rob Andrew, won a thriller by 21-19. Three years later, it was the chance for Wales, already Champions, to have a go, but again the English repelled the invaders with a 15-8 win. A year later, the Scots arrived for another 'winner take all' game on 18th March. Once again, Andrew's boot was the difference and his seven penalties and a drop goal saw the Red Rose win 24-12 to take the Grand Slam.

But it is possible to win a Grand Slam in Twickenham. On 21st March 1981, a French team containing some of their most famous players achieved the unthinkable beating the 'Les Ros Bouef' by 12-16 with two tries from Lacans and Pardo. Some of the names on that French team live on and give proof to the assertion that Grand Slam winners have a special place in the rugby memory. Amongst them were Jacques Fouroux (Coach), Berbizier, Bertranne, Blanco, Cordorniou, Dintrans, Imbernon, Joinel, Laporte, Papaemborde and the captain Jean Pierre Rives. Certainly some of the most famous names in French rugby, almost 40 years later.

So Ireland face a huge challenge, but rarely has any Irish team looked better equipped to take on such a challenge.

Note: 1981 was France's first chance to do the impossible and they succeeded!

[Fan with smartphone]

Winning a Grand Slam in Twickenham is not impossible, but it's a very big challenge. In the 72 Seasons since France rejoined the Five Nations competition in 1946, there have only been four occasions on which such a prize could have been claimed.

Firstly the logistical difficulty. England has played it's last game of the Season in Twickenham just less than 50% of those 72 years. Of the 28 Grand Slams accomplished since 1946, England has won seven of those. For the record, France has won Le Grand Chelem on nine occasions since their first in 1968. Wales has won eight. Scotland and Ireland have two each. Italy has won neither Grand Slam or Championship since their entry in 2000. None of the Welsh, Irish or Scottish victories were obtained in Twickenham i.e. the last leg of the Slam was not against England in London. Ireland in fact has never had the opportunity of winning the Slam in Twickenham, but each of the others had their chances during the early 1990's.

Firstly in 1991, France played England in a 'winner take all' game. But, despite France scoring two tries, England, through the boot of Rob Andrew, won a thriller by 21-19. Three years later, it was the chance for Wales, already Champions, to have a go, but again the English repelled the invaders with a 15-8 win. A year later, the Scots arrived for another 'winner take all' game on 18th March. Once again, Andrew's boot was the difference and his seven penalties and a drop goal saw the Red Rose win 24-12 to take the Grand Slam.

But it is possible to win a Grand Slam in Twickenham. On 21st March 1981, a French team containing some of their most famous players achieved the unthinkable beating the 'Les Ros Bouef' by 12-16 with two tries from Lacans and Pardo. Some of the names on that French team live on and give proof to the assertion that Grand Slam winners have a special place in the rugby memory. Amongst them were Jacques Fouroux (Coach), Berbizier, Bertranne, Blanco, Cordorniou, Dintrans, Imbernon, Joinel, Laporte, Papaemborde and the captain Jean Pierre Rives. Certainly some of the most famous names in French rugby, almost 40 years later.

So Ireland face a huge challenge, but rarely has any Irish team looked better equipped to take on such a challenge.

Note: 1981 was France's first chance to do the impossible and they succeeded!

Really great work rtb. So to win our 3rd grand slam in history, we have to do something that has only done once before in history. What an opportunity!

[hugonaut]

Winning a Grand Slam in Twickenham is not impossible, but it's a very big challenge. In the 72 Seasons since France rejoined the Five Nations competition in 1946, there have only been four occasions on which such a prize could have been claimed.

Firstly the logistical difficulty. England has played it's last game of the Season in Twickenham just less than 50% of those 72 years. Of the 28 Grand Slams accomplished since 1946, England has won seven of those. For the record, France has won Le Grand Chelem on nine occasions since their first in 1968. Wales has won eight. Scotland and Ireland have two each. Italy has won neither Grand Slam or Championship since their entry in 2000. None of the Welsh, Irish or Scottish victories were obtained in Twickenham i.e. the last leg of the Slam was not against England in London. Ireland in fact has never had the opportunity of winning the Slam in Twickenham, but each of the others had their chances during the early 1990's.

Firstly in 1991, France played England in a 'winner take all' game. But, despite France scoring two tries, England, through the boot of Rob Andrew, won a thriller by 21-19. Three years later, it was the chance for Wales, already Champions, to have a go, but again the English repelled the invaders with a 15-8 win. A year later, the Scots arrived for another 'winner take all' game on 18th March. Once again, Andrew's boot was the difference and his seven penalties and a drop goal saw the Red Rose win 24-12 to take the Grand Slam.

But it is possible to win a Grand Slam in Twickenham. On 21st March 1981, a French team containing some of their most famous players achieved the unthinkable beating the 'Les Ros Bouef' by 12-16 with two tries from Lacans and Pardo. Some of the names on that French team live on and give proof to the assertion that Grand Slam winners have a special place in the rugby memory. Amongst them were Jacques Fouroux (Coach), Berbizier, Bertranne, Blanco, Cordorniou, Dintrans, Imbernon, Joinel, Laporte, Papaemborde and the captain Jean Pierre Rives. Certainly some of the most famous names in French rugby, almost 40 years later.

So Ireland face a huge challenge, but rarely has any Irish team looked better equipped to take on such a challenge.

Note: 1981 was France's first chance to do the impossible and they succeeded!

Great post - you're absolutely right, a lot of those players became legendary. I only saw two of them play [Berbizier and Blanco] but know a lot of the names.

[Fireworks]

To butcher an old cliche. On paper this is going to be very tough but thankfully rugby is played on grass.

The only thing holding me back from wishing away the days and hours to kick off is the amount of work I need to do before then. Work and life in general really gets in the way of my rugby.

[Oldschool]

Winning a Grand Slam in Twickenham is not impossible, but it's a very big challenge. In the 72 Seasons since France rejoined the Five Nations competition in 1946, there have only been four occasions on which such a prize could have been claimed.

Firstly the logistical difficulty. England has played it's last game of the Season in Twickenham just less than 50% of those 72 years. Of the 28 Grand Slams accomplished since 1946, England has won seven of those. For the record, France has won Le Grand Chelem on nine occasions since their first in 1968. Wales has won eight. Scotland and Ireland have two each. Italy has won neither Grand Slam or Championship since their entry in 2000. None of the Welsh, Irish or Scottish victories were obtained in Twickenham i.e. the last leg of the Slam was not against England in London. Ireland in fact has never had the opportunity of winning the Slam in Twickenham, but each of the others had their chances during the early 1990's.

Firstly in 1991, France played England in a 'winner take all' game. But, despite France scoring two tries, England, through the boot of Rob Andrew, won a thriller by 21-19. Three years later, it was the chance for Wales, already Champions, to have a go, but again the English repelled the invaders with a 15-8 win. A year later, the Scots arrived for another 'winner take all' game on 18th March. Once again, Andrew's boot was the difference and his seven penalties and a drop goal saw the Red Rose win 24-12 to take the Grand Slam.

But it is possible to win a Grand Slam in Twickenham. On 21st March 1981, a French team containing some of their most famous players achieved the unthinkable beating the 'Les Ros Bouef' by 12-16 with two tries from Lacans and Pardo. Some of the names on that French team live on and give proof to the assertion that Grand Slam winners have a special place in the rugby memory. Amongst them were Jacques Fouroux (Coach), Berbizier, Bertranne, Blanco, Cordorniou, Dintrans, Imbernon, Joinel, Laporte, Papaemborde and the captain Jean Pierre Rives. Certainly some of the most famous names in French rugby, almost 40 years later.

So Ireland face a huge challenge, but rarely has any Irish team looked better equipped to take on such a challenge.

Note: 1981 was France's first chance to do the impossible and they succeeded!

In 1972 we beat France and England away but owing to the Wales and Scotland refused (IRA activity I think, Dublin bombs maybe).
So RWC23 is not the first time the Welsh and Scots have welched on us.
Later in the season England played us in Landsdowne, not something they get much credit for btw.
Would the Twickenham game have been our last game if the schedule had been followed?

I also have a vague recollection that Gattie had the two away wins in the bag when the home games against Scots and Welsh were postponed due to foot and mouth disease, we lost to the scots cos Gattie refused to switch Shaggy to wing (the Scots were skinning him) with a London Irish player who's name escapes but he won a lot of caps (both on wing and at12) and was very solid in defence. Edited Kevin Maggs
Once again we had lost the momentum.
Getting back to the point, had the schedule been adhered to, would the England game have been the last game?

Great post BTW.

[Oldschool]

To butcher an old cliche. On paper this is going to be very tough but thankfully rugby is played on grass.

The only thing holding me back from wishing away the days and hours to kick off is the amount of work I need to do before then. Work and life in general really gets in the way of my rugby.

Yep life goes on.
And btw did you ever notice that time slows in anticipation of a major and future occasion.

[FLIP]

Really don't get all the optimisim going into this. Yes we're doing well, but this will not be easy at all. This will be the hardest match.

Fully prepared to eat my hat mind, but I have a bad feeling about this.

[Oldschool]

Really don't get all the optimisim going into this. Yes we're doing well, but this will not be easy at all. This will be the hardest match.

Fully prepared to eat my hat mind, but I have a bad feeling about this.

A lot of optimism purely because we've got to this point but I'm not sure that there is a matching amount of confidence.

[Twist]

Winning a Grand Slam in Twickenham is not impossible, but it's a very big challenge. In the 72 Seasons since France rejoined the Five Nations competition in 1946, there have only been four occasions on which such a prize could have been claimed.

Firstly the logistical difficulty. England has played it's last game of the Season in Twickenham just less than 50% of those 72 years. Of the 28 Grand Slams accomplished since 1946, England has won seven of those. For the record, France has won Le Grand Chelem on nine occasions since their first in 1968. Wales has won eight. Scotland and Ireland have two each. Italy has won neither Grand Slam or Championship since their entry in 2000. None of the Welsh, Irish or Scottish victories were obtained in Twickenham i.e. the last leg of the Slam was not against England in London. Ireland in fact has never had the opportunity of winning the Slam in Twickenham, but each of the others had their chances during the early 1990's.

Firstly in 1991, France played England in a 'winner take all' game. But, despite France scoring two tries, England, through the boot of Rob Andrew, won a thriller by 21-19. Three years later, it was the chance for Wales, already Champions, to have a go, but again the English repelled the invaders with a 15-8 win. A year later, the Scots arrived for another 'winner take all' game on 18th March. Once again, Andrew's boot was the difference and his seven penalties and a drop goal saw the Red Rose win 24-12 to take the Grand Slam.

But it is possible to win a Grand Slam in Twickenham. On 21st March 1981, a French team containing some of their most famous players achieved the unthinkable beating the 'Les Ros Bouef' by 12-16 with two tries from Lacans and Pardo. Some of the names on that French team live on and give proof to the assertion that Grand Slam winners have a special place in the rugby memory. Amongst them were Jacques Fouroux (Coach), Berbizier, Bertranne, Blanco, Cordorniou, Dintrans, Imbernon, Joinel, Laporte, Papaemborde and the captain Jean Pierre Rives. Certainly some of the most famous names in French rugby, almost 40 years later.

So Ireland face a huge challenge, but rarely has any Irish team looked better equipped to take on such a challenge.

Note: 1981 was France's first chance to do the impossible and they succeeded!

In 1972 we beat France and England away but owing to the Wales and Scotland refused (IRA activity I think, Dublin bombs maybe).
So RWC23 is not the first time the Welsh and Scots have welched on us.
Later in the season England played us in Landsdowne, not something they get much credit for btw.
Would the Twickenham game have been our last game if the schedule had been followed?

I also have a vague recollection that Gattie had the two away wins in the bag when the home games against Scots and Welsh were postponed due to foot and mouth disease, we lost to the scots cos Gattie refused to switch Shaggy to wing (the Scots were skinning him) with a London Irish player who's name escapes but he won a lot of caps (both on wing and at12) and was very solid in defence. Edited Kevin Maggs
Once again we had lost the momentum.
Getting back to the point, had the schedule been adhered to, would the England game have been the last game?

Great post BTW.

Yeah that was the interrupted 2001 series. We foolishly lost in Scotland and then, quite sensibly, beat England at home

On the 1972 series, I remember reading about the post-match speech of the England captain. "We may not be great, but at least we turn up!"




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[simonokeeffe]

England are bending over backwards to claim underdog status. Again I don think that suits them and theres a slight chance it effects their fragile psyche

Jones is also taking about bringing in an attack coach

[desperado]

Wonder at what point in the lead up he'll start talking about Jonny and how his parents should be concerned.

[Grumpy Old Man]

In 1972 we beat France and England away but owing to the Wales and Scotland refused (IRA activity I think, Dublin bombs maybe).
So RWC23 is not the first time the Welsh and Scots have welched on us.
Later in the season England played us in Landsdowne, not something they get much credit for btw.
Would the Twickenham game have been our last game if the schedule had been followed?

Just to clarify, in 1972 France came over and played an extra game against us. The IRFU would have been in severe financial difficulty otherwise.
England fulfilled their fixture in 1973, when they got a five minute standing ovation when they came on the field.

I was lucky enough to be at both games and I think that the England reception in 1973 remains my favourite rugby moment.

[The Doc]

What Jones is talking about when he talks about one man rucks is that it should only take one player to clear out a ruck, not necessarily only putting one player into a ruck. What is happening then is that only one person is attempting the clear out initially and if the opposition are flooding the ruck then that player is outnumbered and the other English players are too late to have any effect. Even with a ref like Wayne Barnes who allows teams more time than most to compete for the ball England were too slow to get the multiple players France were putting on the ball cleared. France were also being constructively obstructive at the breakdown, their players almost universally rolled away directly into the path of an oncoming English player who was attempting to get to the ruck.

I realise that - my point is that they hold players back in the line with only one going in immediately. But when Scotland and France attacked the ruck, it took too long for the support to get there. Now if they change the plan and have a second / third closer to the ruck, it means they have to adjust their attacking line. That's my point - changing tactics at the ruck isn't a standalone thing... it causes a rethink of the broader attacking shape.

But also - England were also going into contact as single players - they were sometimes going in as individuals. Not sure if that was tactics or just fatigue

[Ruckedtobits]

In 1972 we beat France and England away but owing to the Wales and Scotland refused (IRA activity I think, Dublin bombs maybe).
So RWC23 is not the first time the Welsh and Scots have welched on us.
Later in the season England played us in Landsdowne, not something they get much credit for btw.
Would the Twickenham game have been our last game if the schedule had been followed?

I also have a vague recollection that Gattie had the two away wins in the bag when the home games against Scots and Welsh were postponed due to foot and mouth disease, we lost to the scots cos Gattie refused to switch Shaggy to wing (the Scots were skinning him) with a London Irish player who's name escapes but he won a lot of caps (both on wing and at12) and was very solid in defence. Edited Kevin Maggs
Once again we had lost the momentum.
Getting back to the point, had the schedule been adhered to, would the England game have been the last game?

Great post BTW.[/quote]

The 1972 story is summed up by the anecdote supposedly supplied in 1973 by England Captain John Pullen speaking at the post-match dinner the following year, when he was reported as starting his speech with the remark "Well we may not be very good, but at least we turned up".

The English played us on the 12th of February 1972 in Twickenham and were beaten in a cracking game by 12-16, Kevin Flynn and Tom Grace scored our tries. Scotland and Wales refused to travel to Dublin to play us. We had beaten France in Paris in the first game by 9-14 (Ray McGloughlin scored his only try for Ireland). France returned to Dublin to play us on the 29th April as a gesture of solidarity and we beat them by 24-14.

The short answer is we wouldn't have played a Grand Slam game in Twickers in 1972. It would have been in Dublin against Wales -containing 13 Lions from the successful 1971 Lions Tour to NZ. I have never forgiven the Welsh for bottling that fixture!

[Hippo]

I was lucky enough to be at both games and I think that the England reception in 1973 remains my favourite rugby moment.

I was there too and it was indeed a wonderful moment, unforgettable.

[maps]

Seems likely that the only change we’ll see is Nordi Murphy in for Stander, who is unlucky but clearly limited.
Happy enough with that.

[simonokeeffe]

Seems likely that the only change we’ll see is Nordi Murphy in for Stander, who is unlucky but clearly limited.
Happy enough with that.

Is Stander injured? Surely Conan would come in then as specialist 8?

[RAILWAY1]

Barring injuries I would see Joe Schmidt going with the same squad again.

[paddyor]

Some interesting stuff here from the1014. This is the type of stuff I was talking about re their clearouts