Summer tour to Australia

[Flash Gordon]

We lost a lot of metres and penalties to line-out mauls which are a blight on the game. They are really a form of legalised obstruction. They yield unwarranted metres, penalties (with metres) and tries without any real contest being possible once the initial maul moves off its centre and the obstruction-train gets chuffing.

There should be a 10 metres cap on how far line-out mauls can march upfield, many of them centipede-like, before the ball is used.

Also, it seems easier to enter North Korea legally than to enter a defending lineout maul. The punishment does not fit the crime nor is the reward justified.

There's something intrinsically not in keeping with the spirit of the game when players are in front of the ball blocking access to the player with the ball.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I thought the ref was fine. He might have given the a YC for the 2nd infringement on their line but once we scored the YC clock reset. And yes the Aussies had lots of infringements but unless they're in the 22 they generally don't count towards a YC.

Lots of them were though, especially between about the 50th and 55th minutes. I think there were two offsides and Hooper killed the ball really cynically, all pretty much on their line. I think there may have been more in that period, they're just the ones I remember.

Only just remembered this now but I think Haylett Petty should have been done for injuring Conway too but maybe he got away with it because Conway got up straight away. That kind of thing does happen a lot and rarely gets punished, but it's something World Rugby really needs to look at.

[paddyor]

I thought the ref was fine. He might have given the a YC for the 2nd infringement on their line but once we scored the YC clock reset. And yes the Aussies had lots of infringements but unless they're in the 22 they generally don't count towards a YC.

Lots of them were though, especially between about the 50th and 55th minutes. I think there were two offsides and Hooper killed the ball really cynically, all pretty much on their line. I think there may have been more in that period, they're just the ones I remember.

Only just remembered this now but I think Haylett Petty should have been done for injuring Conway too but maybe he got away with it because Conway got up straight away. That kind of thing does happen a lot and rarely gets punished, but it's something World Rugby really needs to look at.

There were 3 all in the same passage of play. And despite them being cynical penos we still got the ball to the line 3 times. The Hooper one was just before we scored and after that the YC clock resets.

Had we not turned the ball over 4 times(2 lineouts and twice by Pocock - first one was nonsense) in there 22 we'd probably have made them commit more offences.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

So what if we still got the ball to the line? It didn't matter when Healy was carded and they got the PT. Lots of offences in a short space of time near the line should result in a yellow, no doubt about it. The Hooper one was particularly cynical and had far more impact on our play than Jack McGrath's did later on (because Hooper was stopping a try).

Never heard of there being any kind of YC clock, that's nonsense tbh.

[paddyor]

So what if we still got the ball to the line? It didn't matter when Healy was carded and they got the PT. Lots of offences in a short space of time near the line should result in a yellow, no doubt about it. The Hooper one was particularly cynical and had far more impact on our play than Jack McGrath's did later on (because Hooper was stopping a try).

Never heard of there being any kind of YC clock, that's nonsense tbh.

I think it's that "materiality" thing. Was the offence so cynical it stopped a try scoring opportunity. Not really.
What Healy did was dangerous. Seemed harsh when they got the PT too

It's a figure of speech and it's generally how I percieve it to be reffed. Once you score cynical play in the lead up is ignored. There was similar in the Wales game this year IIRC. If Furlong didn't score Hooper would have went to the bin.

EDIT: And I don't think I'm alone in that perception. I've heard several commentators say that such and such escaped a card because of a score. The Aussie commentators even said it. Also Hughes got binned in the England game for an identical offence to McGrath, his was dumber though because it was on the SA 22 and SA were trying to clear their lines.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Totally disagree with that.

If Hooper does something so cynical on the line then it should be a yellow, I don't even care if there were other incidents. You can't let a player do that and again I'd compare what Jack McGrath did. Hooper doing that so close to the line made a huge difference to our chances of scoring a try, Jack's stupidity really didn't because Australia were further out and we'd already repelled them.

The YC clock thing is a very nuanced debate that I don't want to get into, but I will say that Foley should have been carded for his deliberate knock on regardless of whether they had had a previous warning, but the fact that they had had one makes it unbelievable that he wasn't carded and then Jack was despite no warning.

Edit: You say others agree with you but Joe Schmidt seems to agree with me and so do most people on here by the looks of it so that's irrelevant really. I'm not arguing Jack's yellow btw, it was cynical and deserved a yellow, but so did Australia for several offences and yet they got away with them and had two warnings instead.

[paddyor]

Totally disagree with that.

If Hooper does something so cynical on the line then it should be a yellow, I don't even care if there were other incidents. You can't let a player do that and again I'd compare what Jack McGrath did. Hooper doing that so close to the line made a huge difference to our chances of scoring a try, Jack's stupidity really didn't because Australia were further out and we'd already repelled them.

The YC clock thing is a very nuanced debate that I don't want to get into, but I will say that Foley should have been carded for his deliberate knock on regardless of whether they had had a previous warning, but the fact that they had had one makes it unbelievable that he wasn't carded and then Jack was despite no warning.

We scored seconds after Hoopers offence. Literally right after it. There might even be an argument that had he not gone to try and kill the ball he might have stopped Furlong running over the SH.

Actually the initial call was a knock on Oz scrum Ireland. He killed the ball in a way that Hooper didn't. He stopped the game and for a brief moment turned over possession.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'm aware of the knock on, but my point was that a try wasn't on for Australia in the same way that it was for us when Hooper killed it.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I genuinely can't fathom how you'd be okay with Hooper getting away with doing something so cynical and like I said that's just in isolation, when you factor in the other offences it just beggars belief that they didn't get another yellow.

[paddyor]

Totally disagree with that.

If Hooper does something so cynical on the line then it should be a yellow, I don't even care if there were other incidents. You can't let a player do that and again I'd compare what Jack McGrath did. Hooper doing that so close to the line made a huge difference to our chances of scoring a try, Jack's stupidity really didn't because Australia were further out and we'd already repelled them.

The YC clock thing is a very nuanced debate that I don't want to get into, but I will say that Foley should have been carded for his deliberate knock on regardless of whether they had had a previous warning, but the fact that they had had one makes it unbelievable that he wasn't carded and then Jack was despite no warning.

Edit: You say others agree with you but Joe Schmidt seems to agree with me and so do most people on here by the looks of it so that's irrelevant really. I'm not arguing Jack's yellow btw, it was cynical and deserved a yellow, but so did Australia for several offences and yet they got away with them and had two warnings instead.

I didn't say others agree with me. I said I'm not the only one who sees the use of YC that way which you said was nonsense.

I think refs screw up a couple of times a game. All of them. If all you have to complain about is one decision to not give a YC then that's not really a lot. FWIW I thought Pococks first turnover that lead to the scrum was also wrong.

[paddyor]

I'm aware of the knock on, but my point was that a try wasn't on for Australia in the same way that it was for us when Hooper killed it.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I genuinely can't fathom how you'd be okay with Hooper getting away with doing something so cynical and like I said that's just in isolation, when you factor in the other offences it just beggars belief that they didn't get another yellow.

It's not that I'm okay with. I just think that's consistently how it's reffed(or how I see it being reffed). If you score then any offence in the lead up is ignored. That's why I said he might have given them a YC for the 2nd offside.

And yeah it's a fiar point about the foley knock on. Another ref would probably have carded him.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

No it was the idea of there being a "reset" that I thought was nonsense. In other words, I don't think there's a clean slate once a score is given, and that goes for both an offence committed in the lead up to a score, AND subsequent offences after that.

I think you're missing the point about consistency. It's not just about one or two calls (there were actually loads IMO), it's the difference in warnings between the two teams and the fact that Australia had a higher penalty count but fewer cards. They didn't have any cards for their cynical play, and that's just wrong IMO. I think the fact that we won and yet the ref is still criticised so much helps to illustrate how poor he was, it's not like it's sour grapes.

We obviously see it totally differently in every way so no point arguing.

[Oldschool]

Totally disagree with that.

If Hooper does something so cynical on the line then it should be a yellow, I don't even care if there were other incidents. You can't let a player do that and again I'd compare what Jack McGrath did. Hooper doing that so close to the line made a huge difference to our chances of scoring a try, Jack's stupidity really didn't because Australia were further out and we'd already repelled them.

The YC clock thing is a very nuanced debate that I don't want to get into, but I will say that Foley should have been carded for his deliberate knock on regardless of whether they had had a previous warning, but the fact that they had had one makes it unbelievable that he wasn't carded and then Jack was despite no warning.

Edit: You say others agree with you but Joe Schmidt seems to agree with me and so do most people on here by the looks of it so that's irrelevant really. I'm not arguing Jack's yellow btw, it was cynical and deserved a yellow, but so did Australia for several offences and yet they got away with them and had two warnings instead.

I didn't say others agree with me. I said I'm not the only one who sees the use of YC that way which you said was nonsense.

I think refs screw up a couple of times a game. All of them. If all you have to complain about is one decision to not give a YC then that's not really a lot. FWIW I thought Pococks first turnover that lead to the scrum was also wrong.

Another angle.
The TMO was no help to the ref during this game (or last weeks game either) unless it was for an Ireland infringement.
Refs will overrule their TMOs but generally avoid doing so.
On the YCs, risk/reward comes into it.
If a player goes for an intercept with low probably of success but succeeds in holding onto the ball then he's likely to score a try ie high reward.
If on the other hand he does knock the ball on then he's done for a deliberate knock on, ie a low risk peno given away in his own half.
Ergo the risk/reward balance is wrong.

As an aside - Did anyone see a potential tip tackle on an Irish player at the previous breakdown (nearer the far touch line from the camera view) to Jack McGrath's YC - initially I thought that's what the reference to foul play was for, naturally the local TV station didn't show a replay as far as I can remember.

[backrower8]

Bookies have us as 4 point favourites to win on Saturday. Interestingly they have the ABs as 11 point favourites to beat Australia (in Oz) when the rugby championship starts.

Beating Australia for a series victory in Sydney will be the toughest undertaking this playing group has had since the drive for the Paris drop goal. The Australians have played and scrambled like men possessed despite the punishment we handed out last Saturday.

We need to freshen our team up...but how?

Henderson for Ryan....how can he do 3x80S?
Conan for CJ...same reason

I would go Stockdale for Larmour.

As for poor old Murray & Kearney...no option but to play them again surely?

SUBS:
John Ryan maybe for Porter? That sub prop Robertson has taken penalties off Furlong & Porter.
Cooney over Marmion please.
We need to add to Joey's experience bucket and minutes so Ross will have to wait.

[sunshiner1]

It depends on a few things. How bad is Conway's injury? If not so bad I'd have him in again instead of Stockdale. Toner needs to be rested, he cramped up and had to be taken off last game so having the likes of Henderson replacing him is something we should look at. As for the rest...I'll leave it to Joe he hasn't done much wrong so far.

[ronk]

If Toner gets through as much work again I'd be happy.

[Ruckedtobits]

The referee for Saturday is Pascal Gauzere who is very familiar with, and to, the Irish players and coaches. His Asst Refs are Williams and Van der Westhauzen who reffed the previous Tests. His approach to the breakdown will be very different and expect early penalties as he lays down his ground-rules as to how players enter rucks or continue competing for the ball having been tackler or assistant tackler. He is also far more black and white on competition in the air and obstruction of chasers.

These factors will create a very different game on Saturday as he will not referee with any sense of trying to ensure continuity or keeping the game going as many SH refs feel obliged to do.

Gauzere is one of my favourite refs and I just hope that we have Leavy available on Saturday as without him we will not be able to adequate compete with Pocock and Hooper and Australia will have a key advantage.

Having Conway and Earls alongside Kearney will also be critical as both of them time their attack on the high ball very well - whether chasing or receiving. Stockdale tends to get under the ball by arriving too early and thus, despite his height, does not have the momentum to get up in the air.

JS and Cheiks have each had one tactical win and Saturday's contest between two of the four best coaches in the world will be fascinating. Hanson, Gatland, Cheika and Schmidt may have competition from such as Erasmus, but at the moment these four are well ahead of their international opponents and every contest between any two of them is worth watching closely. The juices are running already!

[ronk]

2 players who "happen to be around" link with the squad

https://www.the42.ie/dave-kilcoyne-irel ... 6-Jun2018/

[betty swallocks]

Oh dear God, not Kilcoyne!

[fourthirtythree]

Better Kilcoyne than moving Ryan or Porter across probably (and for me Ryan would be sub tighthead).

[bamboozle]

My issue with the referring last Saturday was quite simple, consistency, YC for Healy (no team warning from ref at that point) but no YC for Hooper prior to Furlong's try (2 team warning from ref at that point). YC to Jack but not YC to Foley for preventing a breakaway with a deliberate knock on. But my biggest issue was the the Oz knock on at 39:57 on the clock, this should have seen us with an attacking scrum inside their 22 just to the left of the posts, how the ref saw fit to blow up for half time is incredible, especially when you consider how efficient Ireland have been at scoring just prior to half time during the 6Ns and the momentum we had at that point. This is something Joe raised after the game.

It was one of the most inconsistent reffing performances I've seen in a long time, thankfully we've a NH ref this weekend.