Summer tour to Australia

[Flash Gordon]

Best has resigned until the end of the 2019 World Cup , it is also suggested the Henderson is signed up to 2020

Jesus, I read that Best has resigned and panicked!!! Hendo's deal is huge for Ireland and Ulster, goes through to 2021.

[Ruckedtobits]

The great thing is that we've rotated pretty well so far, it's not like we've flogged an experienced first 15 to make sure we won the Slam. I suppose you could contrast how good we look compared to how lethargic England look to see how well we're set right now.

I'm usually in favour of giving someone an extended break or ensuring they only play a limited amount of time in circumstances like this but if you take someone like Furlong for example, I'd say that Joe would have no intention of him playing the majority of the 240 minutes, and that he'd back Porter to play a lot anyway and not just play him because we need to develop depth, and bar halfback that situation is repeated throughout the squad.

Last November I said that Larmour and Ross Byrne were the only guys likely to break into the squad from nowhere before the World Cup. Even with the intense competition ahead of him I'd add Deegan to that list now. The odds are against him but I think he's developing rapidly and in terms of out and out number 8s he's the third best in the country IMO and will start a lot of games for Leinster with Jordi leaving and Conan likely to be unavailable a fair bit.

As much as the focus is said to be on the next game, and a series win in Australia is something that we should be targeting, obviously there's going to be some World Cup prep looming in the background. To that end, I'd say the areas we need to work on are hooker, second row, make up of the back row in the squad, back up halfbacks getting games, depth in the back three, guys moving positions instead of being specialists in one, and the captaincy.

Hooker - Best had an excellent tournament but I think he's slowing down. His workrate was outstanding and his ability to beat the Welsh and Scots to the breakdown or clear them out if they did get there first was incredible, but he's 35 and his carries and turnovers have gone down. We're very lucky with our depth here and there's a decent number of caps between them so it's not an area that worries me, but I would like to see Scannell start a good few games between now and the end of the year. Cronin will be 33 by the time the World Cup starts and I'd been worried that he'd turn into half the player he is when his pace goes, but actually his work in the tight has been more impressive than anything else lately so I don't particularly have that concern anymore.

Second row - we don't have great depth right now, but if Beirne hits the ground running and Dillane regains his best form then we'd be in really good shape. If Beirne goes to Australia and plays well then that's pretty much "problem" solved.

Back row - impossible to predict injuries or form at this stage but do we take 5 or 6 to the World Cup? Can Leavy and VDF play together? Who's the best bench option? Can Beirne cover 8 at international level? Endless questions here.

Halfbacks - Marmion and Luke just need game time. Joey does too, but is he also an option at 15? Third choice ten needs to be involved too. I'd go for Ross Byrne myself but whoever it is needs to play.

Back three - Earls looks like being out for a while so we'll get to see someone else on the wing. We don't have great depth here though. There's plenty of talent but not many experienced guys who've been tested time and time again. I struggle to see Ferg keeping up his good form over the next 18 months but Conway could become quite important. With Earls injured I don't know who rotates in for Stockdale, don't really like Larmour or Conway on the left wing. That injury will mean that we should figure a lot of that out though.

Versatility - you really need that in a World Cup. Larmour not being pigeon-holed as a winger or fullback and coming on at centre bodes really for what I think we'll need next year. Joey covering fullback, Stockdale moving to fullback or centre, Henshaw to fullback, and Ringrose covering the wing would be the types of things I'd like to see too. I'm not talking about mass experimentation for the next year and a half, but just the odd 20-30 minutes here or there when the opportunity presents itself. When you think back to the last World Cup and how much we struggled without Payne at 13, it's great to think that we can have Henshaw and Ringrose flicking between 12 and 13 without any issues. That's great, we just need a bit more of it.

Captaincy - despite what I said above, I don't think we need to phase Best out or anything, but we could do with having another captain lined up. I know others have taken it when Best has gone off early but I'd like to see another option developed in case he's unavailable. POM and Sexton to share it when he's not on the pitch are probably the obvious suggestions.

Excellent post.

One of the factors which is very difficult to replicate is the cumulative impact of being in Camp with high standards blowing through the corridors. The guys outside this environment can never make up for not being there, until the next time. Between now and departure for Australia, Joe may get an opportunity to re-gather the enlarged Squad for an overnight two-day in Carton. But that is all. It is then expected that his team will hit the ground running 5 or 6 days after landing in Brisbane. Not easy and a completely different set of challenges.

[Dave Cahill]

Interesting piece in the Times today from EOS on this


Alex Ferguson had just returned from breakfast. His mobile was ringing, his PA was desperately trying to grab his attention, but he didn’t break stride when he walked across the bright, tiled floors of Manchester United’s training ground to say hello. “Had that drop from [David] Humphreys gone a few inches the other side, you could easily have been semi-finalists,” he said.

This was 2004, a few months after our narrow loss to Australia at the World Cup. Through a mutual contact, I had been granted a pass to spend a day at Carrington. Hoping to get a few minutes with Sir Alex, I instead spent eight hours in his company, the coaching equivalent of a physics student receiving a tutorial from Albert Einstein.

“The reason we’re consistently successful,” he said, “is because we are able to get most of our best players on the pitch for the key matches in our season. It’s really that simple. Years ago, Bobby Charlton brought me to Real Madrid to study their academy and see their set-up. The first thing that struck us was the quality of their medical programme. Everything was geared towards minimising injury and maximising recovery. The best money we spent was on improving our resources in this area.”

The thing that impressed me most about Ferguson that day wasn’t his knowledge — even though that was extraordinary — nor even his energy, even though he defied the stereotypes about men slowing down when they enter their seventh decade, it was his desire to help out a stranger. He had seen our World Cup games — hence his reference to Humphreys’ near miss — and was fascinated by rugby’s attempts to modernise.

We needed to. Two years before I had embarked on my first tour to New Zealand, albeit without eight key players, six of whom had to withdraw with soft-tissue injuries, victims to fatigue more than anything else.

The World Cup opened our eyes even wider to the necessity of change. Australia and France had overpowered us. Physically we just weren’t big enough. “We need a better plan,” Liam Hennessy, the IRFU’s head of strength and conditioning at the time, said to me.

We started putting one together. First we wanted to restrict the number of games that Irish players played to a maximum of 25 per season. Secondly we insisted that they get four weeks’ holiday at the end of each year and thirdly that they had to undergo an eight-week pre-season. Naturally the provinces weren’t going to be thrilled because they would lose their best players for chunks of the season.

But the IRFU bought into it, especially Eddie Wigglesworth, who was director of rugby. To their credit the IRFU’s committee also listened to our arguments and agreed to invest time and money. Instantly our injury profile improved dramatically. Proudly, 15 years on, it has been rewarding to watch Donncha O’Callaghan and Peter Stringer still running on the treadmill, years after most people thought they would retire. Paul O’Connell and Gordon D’Arcy kept going until 2015, Brian O’Driscoll until one year earlier.

In short, the system worked and everyone else in Europe was envious.

“I want to pick your brains,” Rob Andrew said to me at the rugby writers’ dinner in London. Tea was being served and Andrew, recently appointed RFU director of elite rugby, was looking for an edge. “How can we get your system to work here in England?”

A little over a decade on, it’s a question they are still trying to answer, to the extent that Eddie Jones is considering resting his Lions contingent for this summer’s tour to South Africa. Ireland don’t need to adopt a similar policy, though. With our players contracted centrally, Joe Schmidt knows that this summer’s tour party, between their holiday and pre-season, will not play again for three months after the tour ends.

He also knows that when the 2019 World Cup kicks off, the player-management system will limit Ireland’s injury list. Being a contact sport, no system is foolproof — Seán O’Brien, Rhys Ruddock and Jared Payne all missed this year’s Six Nations. But even so, everything is geared towards Ireland being in the best possible shape when they head to Japan in 18 months.

That’s from a physical perspective. Emotionally Schmidt will have work to do, trying to keep a lid on the hype that has already started to build. I know all about the problems this can cause for World Cups, with the nightmare experience of 2007 still fresh in my memory. However, lessons from that tournament have been learnt. In our preparations the players spent too much time in the gym and insufficient time getting match-ready. Without doubt we should have played more warm-up games. Those mistakes will never be repeated.

Even so, Schmidt still has a dilemma. Does he decide, like Clive Woodward did in 2003, to tackle one huge milestone after another? Or does he sacrifice results by testing out new guys in four key positions — hooker, out half, scrum half and full back? There’s logic in both policies.

Winning a Test series in Australia would probably require the Sexton-Murray combination to be at the fore in all three Tests rather than the relatively untested Joey Carbery-Kieran Marmion alternative. Plus Rory Best’s leadership may be understated but it should not be underrated. He is vital to Ireland’s cause. If Rob Kearney were to get injured, Jordan Larmour needs to have more game time. Without these three, a 12-game winning streak can suddenly end and a chance to bridge a 39-year gap back to the last time Ireland beat Australia on tour could disappear.

Looking at it a different way, England’s 2003 World Cup winners have said that their success stemmed from the confidence and momentum they built throughout the year. They won the grand slam in March and again on their tour to New Zealand and Australia that summer, when even a temporary reduction to 13 players couldn’t deny them a 15-13 win over the All Blacks.

It’s incalculable how much confidence this Ireland team could build from winning all three Tests in Australia and then following that up with wins over Italy and Argentina, their potential opponents in November. That would lead into the All Blacks match on November 17, potentially game No 18 on a winning run, which would equal the recognised world record.

That’s a prize that cannot be ignored. The bigger prize, of course, is the World Cup and if they’re going to do well in that tournament then road-testing Carbery, Marmion, Larmour and Seán Cronin is a necessity. Schmidt won’t want to wait until a World Cup quarter-final to do so. He knows what happened the previous time he was forced to do that.

[neiliog93]

I might rest Stander, who's had a particularly high workload. But from a point of view of ensuring that the Aussies bring their best players when they tour the North, we can't really justify not bringing our captain, or resting Sexton or Murray. Perhaps Schmidt could bring a slightly larger squad than usual, and play 80-90% of his strongest team in the first two tests, but with 1-3 rotational changes. Then in the third test play a slightly more experimental team (but still with no less than 50-60% of the frontliners).

[simonokeeffe]

It's about time the 61 cap 31 year old Sean Cronin got roadtested alright

The Ferguson bit is really interesting. Rest is Eddie getting splinters in his ar$e/repeating a question as usual

[Dave Cahill]

In fairness Simon, if Eddie said water was wet you'd use it to dry your clothes

I watched Against the Head last night before recording Blues Talk and I kept calling Joe Schmidt - Eddie, and Eddie Jones - O'Sullivan during the recording, so maybe he has some dark satanic mojo going on.

[simonokeeffe]

In fairness Simon, if Eddie said water was wet you'd use it to dry your clothes

I watched Against the Head last night before recording Blues Talk and I kept calling Joe Schmidt - Eddie, and Eddie Jones - O'Sullivan during the recording, so maybe he has some dark satanic mojo going on.

You are not wrong, I have little time for your false prophet

At worst you're still doing a better punditry job this week than Guscott

[Dave Cahill]

In fairness Simon, if Eddie said water was wet you'd use it to dry your clothes

I watched Against the Head last night before recording Blues Talk and I kept calling Joe Schmidt - Eddie, and Eddie Jones - O'Sullivan during the recording, so maybe he has some dark satanic mojo going on.

You are not wrong, I have little time for your false prophet

At worst you're still doing a better punditry job this week than Guscott

Not a very high bar it must be said!

[Peg Leg]

In fairness Simon, if Eddie said water was wet you'd use it to dry your clothes

I watched Against the Head last night before recording Blues Talk and I kept calling Joe Schmidt - Eddie, and Eddie Jones - O'Sullivan during the recording, so maybe he has some dark satanic mojo going on.

About that....

[Lar]

The great thing is that we've rotated pretty well so far, it's not like we've flogged an experienced first 15 to make sure we won the Slam. I suppose you could contrast how good we look compared to how lethargic England look to see how well we're set right now.

I'm usually in favour of giving someone an extended break or ensuring they only play a limited amount of time in circumstances like this but if you take someone like Furlong for example, I'd say that Joe would have no intention of him playing the majority of the 240 minutes, and that he'd back Porter to play a lot anyway and not just play him because we need to develop depth, and bar halfback that situation is repeated throughout the squad.

Last November I said that Larmour and Ross Byrne were the only guys likely to break into the squad from nowhere before the World Cup. Even with the intense competition ahead of him I'd add Deegan to that list now. The odds are against him but I think he's developing rapidly and in terms of out and out number 8s he's the third best in the country IMO and will start a lot of games for Leinster with Jordi leaving and Conan likely to be unavailable a fair bit.

As much as the focus is said to be on the next game, and a series win in Australia is something that we should be targeting, obviously there's going to be some World Cup prep looming in the background. To that end, I'd say the areas we need to work on are hooker, second row, make up of the back row in the squad, back up halfbacks getting games, depth in the back three, guys moving positions instead of being specialists in one, and the captaincy.

Hooker - Best had an excellent tournament but I think he's slowing down. His workrate was outstanding and his ability to beat the Welsh and Scots to the breakdown or clear them out if they did get there first was incredible, but he's 35 and his carries and turnovers have gone down. We're very lucky with our depth here and there's a decent number of caps between them so it's not an area that worries me, but I would like to see Scannell start a good few games between now and the end of the year. Cronin will be 33 by the time the World Cup starts and I'd been worried that he'd turn into half the player he is when his pace goes, but actually his work in the tight has been more impressive than anything else lately so I don't particularly have that concern anymore.

Second row - we don't have great depth right now, but if Beirne hits the ground running and Dillane regains his best form then we'd be in really good shape. If Beirne goes to Australia and plays well then that's pretty much "problem" solved.

Back row - impossible to predict injuries or form at this stage but do we take 5 or 6 to the World Cup? Can Leavy and VDF play together? Who's the best bench option? Can Beirne cover 8 at international level? Endless questions here.

Halfbacks - Marmion and Luke just need game time. Joey does too, but is he also an option at 15? Third choice ten needs to be involved too. I'd go for Ross Byrne myself but whoever it is needs to play.

Back three - Earls looks like being out for a while so we'll get to see someone else on the wing. We don't have great depth here though. There's plenty of talent but not many experienced guys who've been tested time and time again. I struggle to see Ferg keeping up his good form over the next 18 months but Conway could become quite important. With Earls injured I don't know who rotates in for Stockdale, don't really like Larmour or Conway on the left wing. That injury will mean that we should figure a lot of that out though.
Versatility - you really need that in a World Cup. Larmour not being pigeon-holed as a winger or fullback and coming on at centre bodes really for what I think we'll need next year. Joey covering fullback, Stockdale moving to fullback or centre, Henshaw to fullback, and Ringrose covering the wing would be the types of things I'd like to see too. I'm not talking about mass experimentation for the next year and a half, but just the odd 20-30 minutes here or there when the opportunity presents itself. When you think back to the last World Cup and how much we struggled without Payne at 13, it's great to think that we can have Henshaw and Ringrose flicking between 12 and 13 without any issues. That's great, we just need a bit more of it.

Captaincy - despite what I said above, I don't think we need to phase Best out or anything, but we could do with having another captain lined up. I know others have taken it when Best has gone off early but I'd like to see another option developed in case he's unavailable. POM and Sexton to share it when he's not on the pitch are probably the obvious suggestions.

Good post LRIP but you gloss over the props a bit in my view. For as long as Healy/McGrath and Furlong/Porter stay fit we are well covered for Japan but take any one or more of them out of the equation with injury (or possibly even loss of form???) then we need others to gain experience particularly at tight head. The front row is the one position where your subs are virtually guaranteed some game time. I think Kilcoyne can do a job at LH but I am less convinced by Ryan and Archer at TH, and wonder if Marty Moore might be a better option to look at bringing to Aus? I fully accept hasn't justified it on form but I am guessing he should get a lot more game time for Ulster next season than he has for Wasps in the last couple.

[hugonaut]

The great thing is that we've rotated pretty well so far, it's not like we've flogged an experienced first 15 to make sure we won the Slam. I suppose you could contrast how good we look compared to how lethargic England look to see how well we're set right now.

I'm usually in favour of giving someone an extended break or ensuring they only play a limited amount of time in circumstances like this but if you take someone like Furlong for example, I'd say that Joe would have no intention of him playing the majority of the 240 minutes, and that he'd back Porter to play a lot anyway and not just play him because we need to develop depth, and bar halfback that situation is repeated throughout the squad.

Last November I said that Larmour and Ross Byrne were the only guys likely to break into the squad from nowhere before the World Cup. Even with the intense competition ahead of him I'd add Deegan to that list now. The odds are against him but I think he's developing rapidly and in terms of out and out number 8s he's the third best in the country IMO and will start a lot of games for Leinster with Jordi leaving and Conan likely to be unavailable a fair bit.

As much as the focus is said to be on the next game, and a series win in Australia is something that we should be targeting, obviously there's going to be some World Cup prep looming in the background. To that end, I'd say the areas we need to work on are hooker, second row, make up of the back row in the squad, back up halfbacks getting games, depth in the back three, guys moving positions instead of being specialists in one, and the captaincy.

Hooker - Best had an excellent tournament but I think he's slowing down. His workrate was outstanding and his ability to beat the Welsh and Scots to the breakdown or clear them out if they did get there first was incredible, but he's 35 and his carries and turnovers have gone down. We're very lucky with our depth here and there's a decent number of caps between them so it's not an area that worries me, but I would like to see Scannell start a good few games between now and the end of the year. Cronin will be 33 by the time the World Cup starts and I'd been worried that he'd turn into half the player he is when his pace goes, but actually his work in the tight has been more impressive than anything else lately so I don't particularly have that concern anymore.

Second row - we don't have great depth right now, but if Beirne hits the ground running and Dillane regains his best form then we'd be in really good shape. If Beirne goes to Australia and plays well then that's pretty much "problem" solved.

Back row - impossible to predict injuries or form at this stage but do we take 5 or 6 to the World Cup? Can Leavy and VDF play together? Who's the best bench option? Can Beirne cover 8 at international level? Endless questions here.

Halfbacks - Marmion and Luke just need game time. Joey does too, but is he also an option at 15? Third choice ten needs to be involved too. I'd go for Ross Byrne myself but whoever it is needs to play.

Back three - Earls looks like being out for a while so we'll get to see someone else on the wing. We don't have great depth here though. There's plenty of talent but not many experienced guys who've been tested time and time again. I struggle to see Ferg keeping up his good form over the next 18 months but Conway could become quite important. With Earls injured I don't know who rotates in for Stockdale, don't really like Larmour or Conway on the left wing. That injury will mean that we should figure a lot of that out though.
Versatility - you really need that in a World Cup. Larmour not being pigeon-holed as a winger or fullback and coming on at centre bodes really for what I think we'll need next year. Joey covering fullback, Stockdale moving to fullback or centre, Henshaw to fullback, and Ringrose covering the wing would be the types of things I'd like to see too. I'm not talking about mass experimentation for the next year and a half, but just the odd 20-30 minutes here or there when the opportunity presents itself. When you think back to the last World Cup and how much we struggled without Payne at 13, it's great to think that we can have Henshaw and Ringrose flicking between 12 and 13 without any issues. That's great, we just need a bit more of it.

Captaincy - despite what I said above, I don't think we need to phase Best out or anything, but we could do with having another captain lined up. I know others have taken it when Best has gone off early but I'd like to see another option developed in case he's unavailable. POM and Sexton to share it when he's not on the pitch are probably the obvious suggestions.

Good post LRIP but you gloss over the props a bit in my view. For as long as Healy/McGrath and Furlong/Porter stay fit we are well covered for Japan but take any one or more of them out of the equation with injury (or possibly even loss of form???) then we need others to gain experience particularly at tight head. The front row is the one position where your subs are virtually guaranteed some game time. I think Kilcoyne can do a job at LH but I am less convinced by Ryan and Archer at TH, and wonder if Marty Moore might be a better option to look at bringing to Aus? I fully accept hasn't justified it on form but I am guessing he should get a lot more game time for Ulster next season than he has for Wasps in the last couple.

I don't think Marty has done anything this season to earn his way in to an Irish squad. He's only had five starts for Wasps, which is a particularly low given that they've played 23 games [17 in the league and 6 in the cup]. Finlay Bealham should be pushing for a spot: Joe had him on the pitch against the All Blacks twice in November 2016, and I don't think he let us down in either game. He's played a good bit of rugby for Connacht this season – and has started more games for his province than John Ryan has for Munster - so I think he should be in the mix for third choice TH.

[Lar]

Fair point - I did say MM had done nothing to justify going - I have not seen a lot of Connacht this season but had the impression for some reason that Bealham had not progressed or even regressed. Not sure why.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think Bealham was carrying an injury in the second half of last season and had to keep playing because they were short of numbers. Expected him to be better this season but not sure why he hasn't been. Maybe he's just been affected by the general malaise and will be better next season. I'm not sure I've ever been more pleasantly surprised by someone in green, he really was excellent in 2016.

[simonokeeffe]

assuming we take 5 props to Japan, first 4 are obvious and set in stone, who is front runner to be 5th?

I would say John Ryan as he and Porter have much more (recent) experience on the other side than McGrath, even if Bealham can cover both

[Peg Leg]

assuming we take 5 props to Japan, first 4 are obvious and set in stone, who is front runner to be 5th?

I would say John Ryan as he and Porter have experience on the other side but none of our looseheads do

Arise sir Bent

[Ruckedtobits]

assuming we take 5 props to Japan, first 4 are obvious and set in stone, who is front runner to be 5th?

I would say John Ryan as he and Porter have experience on the other side but none of our looseheads do

Arise sir Bent

I'm with that man.

[simonokeeffe]

assuming we take 5 props to Japan, first 4 are obvious and set in stone, who is front runner to be 5th?

I would say John Ryan as he and Porter have experience on the other side but none of our looseheads do

Arise sir Bent

I'm with that man.

I'm not

A former poster on here made an interesting suggestion/request on Twitter, Carberry & Murray and Sexton & Marmion to start a game together (each combo)

[Oldschool]

Fair point - I did say MM had done nothing to justify going - I have not seen a lot of Connacht this season but had the impression for some reason that Bealham had not progressed or even regressed. Not sure why.

The main case for bringing both Moore and Beirne, as potential match day 23ers is to get them up to speed asap with the RWC only 18 months away.
The quicker players buy in and adapt buy in to JS's system the better.
The other side of that coin is JS's desire to 'reward' the other squad members for their efforts to date.

[dropkick]

I can't see Moore making the squad. He has to prove himself again next season in Ulster.
Beirne is being talked about as a second row but theres also the possibility that he could be used as a 6 and rotate with POM.


I've changed my mind about the tour. I think they should bring a strong squad and target the win. Continue the winning run and a win would also build the players' confidence and belief even more.

[blockhead]

I can't see Moore making the squad. He has to prove himself again next season in Ulster.
Beirne is being talked about as a second row but theres also the possibility that he could be used as a 6 and rotate with POM.


I've changed my mind about the tour. I think they should bring a strong squad and target the win. Continue the winning run and a win would also build the players' confidence and belief even more.

Well Farrell was brought straight up to Carton House when he returned from France. Joe is rewarding returnee's just as much as he is punishing deserters. Or in Zebo's case, desserter.