Summer tour to Australia

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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Oldschool » June 25th, 2018, 1:40 pm

StrangeButBlue wrote:He was complaining about how long we were taking regrouping before a scrum saying we were wasting time chatting away while someone was down injured, and then he said "fiddly di, fiddly di, potato", This appeared to be what he believed the Irish were saying to each other.

Fiddly Di is a phrase used by Scarlet O'Hara in Gone With The Wind (one of my favourite films btw) who with a name like O'Hara was obviously Irish so maybe Kearns (who's as squint eyed a commentator as your worst Welsh commentator - two digs for the price of one) was simply saying that he knows the Irish like their spuds.
Who knows, who cares?
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Oldschool » June 25th, 2018, 1:47 pm

The big differences between the two teams were.
1. The skill of the Irish forwards - all the Oz commentators kept making this point.
2. The skill of the Australian backs - all the NH commentators kept making this point.
The problem for Ireland is that teams will try to neuter,/match our advantage and by the same token we
have to improve our back's skill level.
These last three Tests may well have been (hopefully) a timely eye opener for our players.
IE we're made it to base camp but the main climb is still to come.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Oldschool » June 25th, 2018, 2:28 pm

[quote="Ruckedtobits"]The result in Australia has had a curious impact on some Irish rugby fans. A sense of anticlimax has descended on rugby supporters that this Season can give no more.
ETC.
You've touch a real nerve with this post especially the first paragraph.
There is a sense of it all being somehow a dream and therefore lacking in substance.
There is a sense that the team is underachieving in some way.
There is a sense of unfulfillment.
Why?
Are we picking this up from the players.
One small example, the reaction from the players, after winning on Saturday was relatively subdued, maybe the players are finding it hard to believe what is happening.
Maybe that drop goal against France was the pinnacle, the moment when the players (and fans) knew it was going to be their season and from then on it was just about waiting for it to happen.
Even the series win was not unexpected.
Also are we still waiting for and expecting Ireland to cut open, fillet a top team and really make a statement about just how good we think we are.
Leinster have done it this season, more than once - we won't be satisfied until Ireland does it.
Ireland have come close a few times but haven't actually kicked on.
South Africa was the closest but even then we new SA weren't performing.
Is the team missing some final ingredient that even JS hasn't identified or can't provide (yet)?

Something is missing and we sense it but we don't know what it is.
We have to hope Joe knows and can figure out how to solve the riddle.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby backrower8 » June 25th, 2018, 4:48 pm

Oldschool wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:The result in Australia has had a curious impact on some Irish rugby fans. A sense of anticlimax has descended on rugby supporters that this Season can give no more.
ETC.
You've touch a real nerve with this post especially the first paragraph.
There is a sense of it all being somehow a dream and therefore lacking in substance.
There is a sense that the team is underachieving in some way.
There is a sense of unfulfillment.
Why?
Are we picking this up from the players.
One small example, the reaction from the players, after winning on Saturday was relatively subdued, maybe the players are finding it hard to believe what is happening.
Maybe that drop goal against France was the pinnacle, the moment when the players (and fans) knew it was going to be their season and from then on it was just about waiting for it to happen.
Even the series win was not unexpected.
Also are we still waiting for and expecting Ireland to cut open, fillet a top team and really make a statement about just how good we think we are.
Leinster have done it this season, more than once - we won't be satisfied until Ireland does it.
Ireland have come close a few times but haven't actually kicked on.
South Africa was the closest but even then we new SA weren't performing.
Is the team missing some final ingredient that even JS hasn't identified or can't provide (yet)?

Something is missing and we sense it but we don't know what it is.
We have to hope Joe knows and can figure out how to solve the riddle.


We are missing three things:

- offloading forwards that can create half-breaks, holes and kinks in opposition defences. Henderson & Ryan give us that in 2R, but the combination of POM & CJ is a bottle-neck on our playing style. For all their heroics (they have also played plenty of average games) they are dot distributors and their feet are all about direct contact. We can afford to have one of them in the BR, not both. CJ at 6 for me, even then I am not wowed by his carry count. He is passed to on memory now but we would getmore if we were passing more often to forwards that will both break the gainline AND offload.

- more creativity and creative licence for our backline. We need Ringrose playing all the time and we need a creative 15 - Larmour. He is a short as Halfpenny, so what.

- new riding instructions from Joe that in effect gives approval to the first two points of offloading forwards and creative backs. The attritional style we are currently wedded to will see us run out of gas and players come the QF in RWC.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby BlueBlue » June 25th, 2018, 5:05 pm

Colonel Kilgore - some day this war is going to end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLqp-KKuo4

Like Colonel Kilgore, I feel my purpose is no more. The season that just gave and gave has come to an end. I never wanted this season to end. I no longer have purpose. :cry:
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby paddyor » June 25th, 2018, 6:57 pm

backrower8 wrote:We are missing three things:

- offloading forwards that can create half-breaks, holes and kinks in opposition defences. Henderson & Ryan give us that in 2R, but the combination of POM & CJ is a bottle-neck on our playing style. For all their heroics (they have also played plenty of average games) they are dot distributors and their feet are all about direct contact. We can afford to have one of them in the BR, not both. CJ at 6 for me, even then I am not wowed by his carry count. He is passed to on memory now but we would getmore if we were passing more often to forwards that will both break the gainline AND offload.

- more creativity and creative licence for our backline. We need Ringrose playing all the time and we need a creative 15 - Larmour. He is a short as Halfpenny, so what.

- new riding instructions from Joe that in effect gives approval to the first two points of offloading forwards and creative backs. The attritional style we are currently wedded to will see us run out of gas and players come the QF in RWC.

I don't think a high tempo offloading game would suit our pack at all. It's really hard to do, probably as hard/draining as the current gameplan on the players. I think the narrow attack is part of game management for 1-9. If we weren't making line breaks I think we'd have to look at it but we are so....

I heard Andy Dunne saying we don't seem to do that much with the ball in the oppo 22 and that we don't seem to do much with the possession. We had 3 periods of sustained possesion in their 22 in the 2nd and 3rd test
In the 2nd test we
We scored a try
Scrum peno
And had 5 mins where:
-They conceded 3 penos
-We got the ball to the line 3 times
-Screwed up a scrum

In the 3rd test
We got the peno off the base of the post(should have been YC)
We got a try

Other than that we coughed up possession after 2-4 phases thru knockons, lost lineouts, Pocock and Murray kicking it away. I wouldn't be all that surprised if the Wallabies spent as much time in our 22 over both tests. We also had to manage 2 YC periods in the 2 tests which probably accounts for a lot of psossesion in both tests.

Then there's all the times we did try stuff only for the attack to break down because of knock ons, dumb penos(POM after the cross kick to Earls 3rd test - it was revenge for Toner mins before), kicking it away, they knocked it down 3 times. Off the top of my head in the first test Stockdale got the ball at least twice and turned it over(kick, offload) and Aki filled his pants and got turned over.

All in favour of a passing fullback, but whoever plays there's first port of call will be secure possession and territory. I think it could well be Henshaw getting a run there in the AIs which would make him a good bench option.

The sequence of games for the RWC is perfect. Scotland, Japan(6 days later), Russia (5 days later) and Probably Samoa 9 days later. It's perfect. We should have plenty of gas for the QFs onwards.

What I'd like to see is
A settled centre partnership -we've used 5 different combos in 8 games. Mixing and matching depending on the opposition/tactics can work but won't aid a more fluid attack. Get Stockdale to work on his fielding, distinct lack of GAA skills there!

Fix the scrum - it was a defensive liabaility and coughed up points and territory, whether we play SA or NZ it won't be good enough on current form.

Fix the lineout - we lost 4 on our own throw over the series(2nd and 3rd tests). We didn't trouble their ball at all when they brought in a lineout forward in Tui(granted POM went off). Our maul defense is variable. Needs work.

Ref craft - When you say "I know you hate me" to a ref, it's time to take stock. How is everyone else so much better at it than us? Was it Dave Cahill who said Schmidt doesn't scrutinize the ref? He needs to start.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 26th, 2018, 8:32 am

Anybody who asserts that Joe Schmidt doesn't scruitinise Refs is talking total rubbish. He knows them better than Rolland and he's their boss.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Dave Cahill » June 26th, 2018, 9:09 am

paddyor wrote:Was it Dave Cahill who said Schmidt doesn't scrutinize the ref? He needs to start.


I certainly didn't say that, or if I did I was having a breakdown! Schmidt scrutinises absolutely everything that might have anything to do with a match - I'd say he could even tell you who makes the paint the use to mark the lines!
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Laighin Break » June 26th, 2018, 9:21 am

backrower8 wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:The result in Australia has had a curious impact on some Irish rugby fans. A sense of anticlimax has descended on rugby supporters that this Season can give no more.
ETC.
You've touch a real nerve with this post especially the first paragraph.
There is a sense of it all being somehow a dream and therefore lacking in substance.
There is a sense that the team is underachieving in some way.
There is a sense of unfulfillment.
Why?
Are we picking this up from the players.
One small example, the reaction from the players, after winning on Saturday was relatively subdued, maybe the players are finding it hard to believe what is happening.
Maybe that drop goal against France was the pinnacle, the moment when the players (and fans) knew it was going to be their season and from then on it was just about waiting for it to happen.
Even the series win was not unexpected.
Also are we still waiting for and expecting Ireland to cut open, fillet a top team and really make a statement about just how good we think we are.
Leinster have done it this season, more than once - we won't be satisfied until Ireland does it.
Ireland have come close a few times but haven't actually kicked on.
South Africa was the closest but even then we new SA weren't performing.
Is the team missing some final ingredient that even JS hasn't identified or can't provide (yet)?

Something is missing and we sense it but we don't know what it is.
We have to hope Joe knows and can figure out how to solve the riddle.


We are missing three things:

- [u]offloading forwards [/u]that can create half-breaks, holes and kinks in opposition defences. Henderson & Ryan give us that in 2R, but the combination of POM & CJ is a bottle-neck on our playing style. For all their heroics (they have also played plenty of average games) they are dot distributors and their feet are all about direct contact. We can afford to have one of them in the BR, not both. CJ at 6 for me, even then I am not wowed by his carry count. He is passed to on memory now but we would getmore if we were passing more often to forwards that will both break the gainline AND offload.

- more creativity and creative licence for our backline. We need Ringrose playing all the time and we need a creative 15 - Larmour. He is a short as Halfpenny, so what.

- new riding instructions from Joe that in effect gives approval to the first two points of offloading forwards and creative backs. The attritional style we are currently wedded to will see us run out of gas and players come the QF in RWC.


I don't see it happen but, based on the last two seasons, Beirne could be exactly the 6 we want.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby backrower8 » June 26th, 2018, 9:28 am

Great posts. Lots to digest paddyor & Laighin Break
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby paddyor » June 26th, 2018, 10:26 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
paddyor wrote:Was it Dave Cahill who said Schmidt doesn't scrutinize the ref? He needs to start.


I certainly didn't say that, or if I did I was having a breakdown! Schmidt scrutinises absolutely everything that might have anything to do with a match - I'd say he could even tell you who makes the paint the use to mark the lines!

He's just cr@p at it then. Or the players aren't paying attention.

Might have been that he doesn't do the ref meeting before the game.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Oldschool » June 26th, 2018, 10:34 am

Our scrum struggled a bit.
Does Joe need to find a replacement for Greg Feek now that he's only available on a part time basis.
Could be the difference between winning and losing a tight game.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 26th, 2018, 11:16 am

Oldschool wrote:Our scrum struggled a bit.
Does Joe need to find a replacement for Greg Feek now that he's only available on a part time basis.
Could be the difference between winning and losing a tight game.


The scrum came under pressure but hardly 'struggled'. It's one of the reasons I suggested that we have to await the Aus v NZ games before we can really objectively assess our series win in Oz. At this point my hunch is that the Aussie scrum may just be very good and in particular their sub-LH, Robinson, may be a real find. Destructive LHPs are rare beast and now Aus and France look like they've each found one.

As for changing Feek, absolutely no way! He's done a great job and continues to do so. Look at John Ryan's progress on Tour. BTW, how did Archer ever get ahead of him in Munster last season. They're not in the same league.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby fourthirtythree » June 26th, 2018, 11:37 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:. Look at John Ryan's progress on Tour. BTW, how did Archer ever get ahead of him in Munster last season. They're not in the same league.


You're right, they just aren't. I know that Ryan's game time is managed due to illness. I was wondering was there perhaps some interference by the Irish management in his game time this year? Is he one of those players that Ireland don't really mind if they play for their club (like say Sexton last year) in order to keep them for Ireland?
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Oldschool » June 26th, 2018, 1:29 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Our scrum struggled a bit.
Does Joe need to find a replacement for Greg Feek now that he's only available on a part time basis.
Could be the difference between winning and losing a tight game.


The scrum came under pressure but hardly 'struggled'. It's one of the reasons I suggested that we have to await the Aus v NZ games before we can really objectively assess our series win in Oz. At this point my hunch is that the Aussie scrum may just be very good and in particular their sub-LH, Robinson, may be a real find. Destructive LHPs are rare beast and now Aus and France look like they've each found one.

As for changing Feek, absolutely no way! He's done a great job and continues to do so. Look at John Ryan's progress on Tour. BTW, how did Archer ever get ahead of him in Munster last season. They're not in the same league.

My own preference would be to stay with Feek but that depends on how available he is.
On a separate note the Oz no. 18 should have been penalised and then YCed for the first scrum against Healy in the third test.
He broke his bind, moved his hand to Healy's armpit, then swung/dropped Healy' shoulder to drop the scrum.
The scrum totally destabilised and he then drive right thru Healy and somebody could have been hurt.
Based on the Lions and Irish scrum, Ireland has one of the best scrums in the business.
The Oz scrum will mangle NZ if they are allowed away with their illegal scrummaging.
It being NZ they probably won't be allowed.
The only rider I'd add to the above is that I'm not a FR expert.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » June 26th, 2018, 2:21 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:. Look at John Ryan's progress on Tour. BTW, how did Archer ever get ahead of him in Munster last season. They're not in the same league.


You're right, they just aren't. I know that Ryan's game time is managed due to illness. I was wondering was there perhaps some interference by the Irish management in his game time this year? Is he one of those players that Ireland don't really mind if they play for their club (like say Sexton last year) in order to keep them for Ireland?


Open to correction on this but I thought the issue was that the illness made his weight fluctuate but now that they know what it is he doesn't have any issues with that so should be fine. I'm a big fan of Ryan but do think his form wasn't as good as last season (although I don't think he was poor) and Archer played well.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby ronk » June 26th, 2018, 10:54 pm

If John Ryan was being held back from Munster to be available for Ireland, he'd have been used more in the 6N/AIs.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 27th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Now that the euphoria surrounding our Series win has somewhat abated, one specific incident from the 3rd Test requires clarification.

At 32.51, time elapsed, in the first-half, Conor Murray picks up the ball under the Australian posts, after three Irish surges for the line have been repelled. the previous attempt to touchdown being by CJ Stander, who was held up by Sekope Kepu, the Australian tight-head prop, who ends up sitting alongside, but just inside, the (attacking) left upright in the field of play.

As the ball emerges from that attempted surge, Australian secondrow, Adam Coleman (No 5), is crouched just to the the left of the post, with his feet behind the try-line, but in a sprinter-start position with his body-weight supported by his hands, which are clearly on the ground in the field of play.

Both Coleman and Kepu are in off-side positions. In fact Kepu, not being on his feet, can take no further part (legally) in the game, unless he either gets back on his feet or retires behind the try-line. Both of these players are in off-side positions clearly covered by the Laws of the game.

The immediate next action is best shown by a slow-motion clip shown from the camera behind the Irish team, taken from ground level and possibly from the half-way line, but withh an excellent angle on the left edge of the left upright. It is the second clip shown by the Director to the TMO on live coverage of the game.

In this clip Murray takes the ball from outside his right foot as it emerges from the ruck after the Stander drive. With the ball in both hands, Murray dives at the base padding of the left upright with the ball touching the ground. There are now three consective frames where it is absolutely clear that the only obtacles preventing Conor Murray touching ball, ground and upright-padding simultaneously, are: a)Sekope Kepu's right arm and b) Adam Coleman's left, and then right, hand and arms.

Murray did not touch the Padding with the ball and Ireland were awarded a penalty, after referee Gauzere conferred with the TMO.

However, this must be a penalty try under the Laws of the Game. The Irish player was clearly deprived of a probable score only by the actions of two players in off-side positions. There was no more obvious penalty try incident shown clearly throughout this Series than this incident.

Is there any Referee, or experienced TMO, who can clarify the interpretation of this event, or explain why no penalty try was awarded, nor no major fuss made about it afterwards?
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby Lar » June 27th, 2018, 7:30 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:Now that the euphoria surrounding our Series win has somewhat abated, one specific incident from the 3rd Test requires clarification.

At 32.51, time elapsed, in the first-half, Conor Murray picks up the ball under the Australian posts, after three Irish surges for the line have been repelled. the previous attempt to touchdown being by CJ Stander, who was held up by Sekope Kepu, the Australian tight-head prop, who ends up sitting alongside, but just inside, the (attacking) left upright in the field of play.

As the ball emerges from that attempted surge, Australian secondrow, Adam Coleman (No 5), is crouched just to the the left of the post, with his feet behind the try-line, but in a sprinter-start position with his body-weight supported by his hands, which are clearly on the ground in the field of play.

Both Coleman and Kepu are in off-side positions. In fact Kepu, not being on his feet, can take no further part (legally) in the game, unless he either gets back on his feet or retires behind the try-line. Both of these players are in off-side positions clearly covered by the Laws of the game.

The immediate next action is best shown by a slow-motion clip shown from the camera behind the Irish team, taken from ground level and possibly from the half-way line, but withh an excellent angle on the left edge of the left upright. It is the second clip shown by the Director to the TMO on live coverage of the game.

In this clip Murray takes the ball from outside his right foot as it emerges from the ruck after the Stander drive. With the ball in both hands, Murray dives at the base padding of the left upright with the ball touching the ground. There are now three consective frames where it is absolutely clear that the only obtacles preventing Conor Murray touching ball, ground and upright-padding simultaneously, are: a)Sekope Kepu's right arm and b) Adam Coleman's left, and then right, hand and arms.

Murray did not touch the Padding with the ball and Ireland were awarded a penalty, after referee Gauzere conferred with the TMO.

However, this must be a penalty try under the Laws of the Game. The Irish player was clearly deprived of a probable score only by the actions of two players in off-side positions. There was no more obvious penalty try incident shown clearly throughout this Series than this incident.

Is there any Referee, or experienced TMO, who can clarify the interpretation of this event, or explain why no penalty try was awarded, nor no major fuss made about it afterwards?


Completely agree with your analysis RTB. I doubt there is a more definitive version of what constitutes a penalty try than that incident. Sexton appeared to try to say something to the ref and I presumed it was to ask this very point. Hard to know from the audio I could hear but it was almost Sexton's first act as captain (apart from being called together with Pocock when Folau was binned), and despite his reputation I wondered whether he just kept a lid on things. He consulted with Murray and took the three points.

I can only presume why no major fuss was made was to do with the fact that Ireland won anyway.

But the number of Aussie transgressions in defence of their line in Tests 2 and 3 were ridiculous and yet not one player was carded. Despite our having won the series this still irks me as the Aussies are quick enough to give out about what they perceive to be poor decisions.
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Re: Summer tour to Australia

Postby hugonaut » June 27th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Lar wrote:But the number of Aussie transgressions in defence of their line in Tests 2 and 3 were ridiculous and yet not one player was carded. Despite our having won the series this still irks me as the Aussies are quick enough to give out about what they perceive to be poor decisions.


They have been massive sore losers. I'd seen it before with regards to England and New Zealand, but I thought it was due to the tetchy relationships between the countries.
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