Ireland 2018/2019

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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Xanthippe » December 12th, 2018, 8:31 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:Just re-viewing the Ireland v USA game and was struck by how many of the Irish Squad were born overseas. I count the following:

16. Herring: - S.Africa
3. Bealham: - Australia
19. Roux: - S. Africa
7. Murphy: - Spain
10. Carbery: - N. Z.
15. Addison: - Wales
23. Arnold: - England

That's probably the greatest number I've ever noticed.


You forgot Luke McGrath
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Peg Leg » December 12th, 2018, 10:10 pm

Xanthippe wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Just re-viewing the Ireland v USA game and was struck by how many of the Irish Squad were born overseas. I count the following:

16. Herring: - S.Africa
3. Bealham: - Australia
19. Roux: - S. Africa
7. Murphy: - Spain
10. Carbery: - N. Z.
15. Addison: - Wales
23. Arnold: - England

That's probably the greatest number I've ever noticed.


You forgot Luke McGrath
And Josh VDF, one of Chester Philips and project: rebirth greatest successes.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby IanD » December 12th, 2018, 11:23 pm

Peg Leg wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Just re-viewing the Ireland v USA game and was struck by how many of the Irish Squad were born overseas. I count the following:

16. Herring: - S.Africa
3. Bealham: - Australia
19. Roux: - S. Africa
7. Murphy: - Spain
10. Carbery: - N. Z.
15. Addison: - Wales
23. Arnold: - England

That's probably the greatest number I've ever noticed.


You forgot Luke McGrath
And Josh VDF, one of Chester Philips and project: rebirth greatest successes.


To the best of my knowledge Josh was born in Ireland.

His family moved to Wicklow in the 80s.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 13th, 2018, 1:03 am

Certainly I should have included Luke but Josh is Wicklow born. Eight out of 23 is a high proportion but indicative of our diaspora more than World Rugby's regulations as only Quinn Roux falls within that dispensation.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Xanthippe » December 13th, 2018, 6:25 am

Xanthippe wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Just re-viewing the Ireland v USA game and was struck by how many of the Irish Squad were born overseas. I count the following:

16. Herring: - S.Africa
3. Bealham: - Australia
19. Roux: - S. Africa
7. Murphy: - Spain
10. Carbery: - N. Z.
15. Addison: - Wales
23. Arnold: - England

That's probably the greatest number I've ever noticed.


You forgot Luke McGrath


So I checked the team sheets and since Joe took over this was the third time we've used 8 players who were born overseas. The other games were Fiji in November 2017 and (surprisingly) New Zealand in Chicago in November 2016!!

We also used
7 players 7 times
6 players 7 times
5 players 15 times

The least we've used in the 62 games under Joe is two (6 times)
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 13th, 2018, 7:18 am

xanthippe wrote

You forgot Luke McGrath

So I checked the team sheets and since Joe took over this was the third time we've used 8 players who were born overseas. The other games were Fiji in November 2017 and (surprisingly) New Zealand in Chicago in November 2016!

We also used
7 Players 7 times
6 Players 7 times
5 Playees 15 times

The least we've used in the 62 games under Joe is two (6 times)!



Fascinating. Great research and surprised I didn't notice the contingent in the 2016 game v N.Z. They must all have the appropriate passports and visas.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby fourthirtythree » December 13th, 2018, 9:11 am

I guess you wouldn't have been counting Heaslip or Nordi in your head which would make it not stand out. And Joey as his parents came back to Ireland.
EDIT and Dillane was born overseas too before his mother came back to Ireland.

So the squad members that were naturalised or grandparented in are Stander and Payne in the starters and Bealham and Marmion off the bench.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby jimbobjoe » December 13th, 2018, 10:33 am

Careful folks, Augustin Pichot might see this!!
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby heno » December 13th, 2018, 3:32 pm

If you are born at sea, it doesn't mean you are a mermaid. Surely where people are born is irrelevant. As is skin colour, accent, possession of red hair and freckles, love of tayto, getting all the jokes in fr Ted, etc
What is relevant is whether someone has come through the Irish system or not. If we field a team with all domestically produced players, that shows the system is working. If we have to bring in players with some or all of their development done elsewhere, that shows a weakness in the system.

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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 13th, 2018, 11:04 pm

heno wrote:If you are born at sea, it doesn't mean you are a mermaid. Surely where people are born is irrelevant. As is skin colour, accent, possession of red hair and freckles, love of tayto, getting all the jokes in fr Ted, etc
What is relevant is whether someone has come through the Irish system or not. If we field a team with all domestically produced players, that shows the system is working. If we have to bring in players with some or all of their development done elsewhere, that shows a weakness in the system

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True, if we have to bring them in. But if they are merely some of the returning diaspora, they are a very welcome addition, which does not reflect in any way on the system.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby TerenureJim » December 14th, 2018, 9:30 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:
heno wrote:If you are born at sea, it doesn't mean you are a mermaid. Surely where people are born is irrelevant. As is skin colour, accent, possession of red hair and freckles, love of tayto, getting all the jokes in fr Ted, etc
What is relevant is whether someone has come through the Irish system or not. If we field a team with all domestically produced players, that shows the system is working. If we have to bring in players with some or all of their development done elsewhere, that shows a weakness in the system

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True, if we have to bring them in. But if they are merely some of the returning diaspora, they are a very welcome addition, which does not reflect in any way on the system.


And if they move here buy into the system, culture, become part of the community, raise kids, learn the language, take citizenship, give something back to the game, put themselves on the line at club, provincial or national level and none of the foregoing is mutually exclusive.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby heno » December 14th, 2018, 3:58 pm

I'm not saying we shouldn't bring people in if the rules allow and we want or need them.
In general I'm saying I would prefer that we move away from vague terms like "non Irish" or "foreign" "being bad for the game" and move towards more precise definitions like what I tried to do above.
Specifically in this thread I'm saying I don't care where people are born I just want to know if they came through the system or not.

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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby johng » December 14th, 2018, 4:32 pm

I don't care where they are born, where they grew up, where they learned Rugby, whether they have an Irish granny, what colour their eyes, shoes or skin is.

All I want to know is. Do they qualify to play for Ireland? Are they happy to play and be committed players? Are their teammates happy with them.

That's it. Not a fan of categorizing players based on any form of eugenics. Or trying to distinguish who is "more Irish" than whoever else. Because it's all bollix. And subjective bollix at that
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Peg Leg » December 14th, 2018, 4:42 pm

johng wrote:I don't care where they are born, where they grew up, where they learned Rugby, whether they have an Irish granny, what colour their eyes, shoes or skin is.

All I want to know is. Do they qualify to play for Ireland? Are they happy to play and be committed players? Are their teammates happy with them.

That's it. Not a fan of categorizing players based on any form of eugenics. Or trying to distinguish who is "more Irish" than whoever else. Because it's all bollix. And subjective bollix at that
You're not alone, but plenty of others unfortunately take issue with our adherence to the rules. Rugby's phrenologist in chief Franno likes to stoke the flames of this one more than most.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby sunshiner1 » January 2nd, 2019, 3:36 am

Stuck this in the Connacht tread but it's pertinent enough here. Ultan Dillane is in talks with Racing in France. I know he's not in the squad at the moment but he's rated highly and would easily be a squad player going forward with injuires/retirements to other players.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby ronk » January 2nd, 2019, 5:20 am

Talks are just talks sometimes. He’s not even 1st choice for Connacht and the depth chart is getting deeper faster than it shallows.

There are no aging locks who won’t make it much past the RWC. Beirne and Ryan are big additions.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby sunshiner1 » January 2nd, 2019, 6:33 am

by ronk

There are no aging locks who won’t make it much past the RWC.


I'd think Toner will be let out to pasture at least internationally after the RWC. Admittedly Kleyn is coming on line and will be available but your always one or two injuries off weakening the squad i.e Henderson being injured right now.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 2nd, 2019, 9:39 am

sunshiner1 wrote:
by ronk

There are no aging locks who won’t make it much past the RWC.


I'd think Toner will be let out to pasture at least internationally after the RWC. Admittedly Kleyn is coming on line and will be available but your always one or two injuries off weakening the squad i.e Henderson being injured right now.


Form and injury will be the only determinants of Dev's international career. On both scores he has thrived since he hit 30 and there is plenty of precedent for long-lasting second-rows. When someone comes along who can do what Dev does and is as big, or bigger, and quicker, Dev's time will be up. Judged on who's visible at present, Thornbury will be ready in two Seasons.
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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Oldschool » January 2nd, 2019, 11:31 am

sunshiner1 wrote:
by ronk

There are no aging locks who won’t make it much past the RWC.


I'd think Toner will be let out to pasture at least internationally after the RWC. Admittedly Kleyn is coming on line and will be available but your always one or two injuries off weakening the squad i.e Henderson being injured right now.

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Re: Ireland 2018/2019

Postby Oldschool » January 2nd, 2019, 11:35 am

johng wrote:I don't care where they are born, where they grew up, where they learned Rugby, whether they have an Irish granny, what colour their eyes, shoes or skin is.

All I want to know is. Do they qualify to play for Ireland? Are they happy to play and be committed players? Are their teammates happy with them.

That's it. Not a fan of categorizing players based on any form of eugenics. Or trying to distinguish who is "more Irish" than whoever else. Because it's all bollix. And subjective bollix at that

So you love all things Munster rugby then?
Yeah sure! :wink:
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