6Ns 2019

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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 10th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Cant really blame the french players, they are shit.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby wixfjord » February 10th, 2019, 8:06 pm

Logorrhea wrote:Cant really blame the french players, they are shit.


They're really not though, and that's more the shame.

Guirado, Camara, Picamoles, Dupont, Lopez, Basta, Fickou, Fofana are cracking players who are full of talent.

They've the likes of Bamba, Chat, Lambey, Iturria, Ntamack, Penaud and Marchand who are all under 24 and could be very good too.

It's the lack of a proper coach, structures, a clear game plan and consistent selection that hampers them.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 10th, 2019, 8:30 pm

wixfjord wrote:They're really not though, and that's more the shame.

Guirado, Camara, Picamoles, Dupont, Lopez, Basta, Fickou, Fofana are cracking players who are full of talent.


Sorry I dont agree. There is a lot of hype around them, lots of people telling you they are meant to be great players but when it comes down to it, they tend to be shite. Of course there is the odd moment for the highlights real, but these players have consistently been shite for quite some time now, under every coach they FFR has been able to throw at em.

Guirado is probably the only exception. The rest are differing levels of meh with the odd flashy line break, and I include Dupont who has a cracking break and is speedy as f*ck but his pass is Bergamasco-like on occasion.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby wixfjord » February 10th, 2019, 9:23 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
wixfjord wrote:They're really not though, and that's more the shame.

Guirado, Camara, Picamoles, Dupont, Lopez, Basta, Fickou, Fofana are cracking players who are full of talent.


Sorry I dont agree. There is a lot of hype around them, lots of people telling you they are meant to be great players but when it comes down to it, they tend to be shite. Of course there is the odd moment for the highlights real, but these players have consistently been shite for quite some time now, under every coach they FFR has been able to throw at em.

Guirado is probably the only exception. The rest are differing levels of meh with the odd flashy line break, and I include Dupont who has a cracking break and is speedy as f*ck but his pass is Bergamasco-like on occasion.


They've been consistently poor at international level, because they've been very badly coached.

They're all immensely talented players who would benefit hugely from proper coaching and structure.

When your coaches have been Brunel, a busted flush Noves and Phillipe Saint Andre it's fairly clear they haven't had that.

It's all very easy to say all France players are 'shit'. That's lazy analysis though imo.

Given a year with this lot, Schmidt would have them humming. You can't win in test rugby without a gameplan and some consistency of selection. For every 6 Nations in the last few years, and even within games, France have chopped and changed their side.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby wixfjord » February 10th, 2019, 9:35 pm

Fofana is a good example of the wasted talent.

One of the best players of his generation. Now 31 and between injury and France being abysmal, his career at test level has been wasted.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Peg Leg » February 10th, 2019, 9:55 pm

I dunno, I think I'm with Logo on this. Great players don't get found out and always change their game to continue making the difference. Fofanna was class when he came on the scene, but he topped out and stopped developing his game. He is a very good player, but not someone who can change a game.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby wixfjord » February 10th, 2019, 10:00 pm

Peg Leg wrote:I dunno, I think I'm with Logo on this. Great players don't get found out and always change their game to continue making the difference. Fofanna was class when he came on the scene, but he topped out and stopped developing his game. He is a very good player, but not someone who can change a game.


Nah, never saw him change a game either...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2VUwrBK3F8

I'm not calling any of the above greats of the game. But they're objectively very talented players, many with very French temperaments who haven't had the structure, coaching or consistency to properly get the most out of themselves.

As we Leinster fans should know better than anyone, players need that to really compete at the highest level.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby dropkick » February 10th, 2019, 11:05 pm

It's been a very disappointing tournament so far in my opinion. Only England fans can feel happy. France imploding, Ireland have a hangover from 2018, Italy are as soft as ever, Wales unimpressive and Scotland are error prone.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 10th, 2019, 11:06 pm

wixfjord wrote:many with very French temperaments who haven't had the structure, coaching or consistency to properly get the most out of themselves.

Sure you could say that about me. I mean I could have been a world class left back but for the coaching. I'm not though. I'm shit.

I think you're giving them credit where it hasnt been earned. You call Fofana a wasted talent, I think he just reached his ceiling. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

As for improving under Joe, I'd be shocked if Joe selected many of them. He has shown many times in the past that he doesnt select based on reputation and hype.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 10th, 2019, 11:33 pm

You could write a book on this topic and the players aren't blameless but a lack of talent isn't their problem. Toulon won three European cups in a row, they played an all French final in 2015 against Clermont who also made the final in 2017, and Racing have made two of the last three finals too. I know those teams all had plenty of foreigners but there were enough French players in it to have made for a better national team. This season they have Racing and Toulouse in the CC QFs, so many of those Toulouse players in the squad have beaten the European champions and are topping the league this season. They have ability and they've had plenty of winners in the squad over the last few years. They also lost to Tonga at the 2011 World Cup and actually made the final after sidelining the coach and deciding to run the team themselves, and would have won it too if it wasn't for some appalling refereeing. Different times but my point is that the ability is there and the attitude can be right depending on the environment.

As for Fofana, IIRC they put him on the wing at first (where he actually did pretty well) despite him being so good in the centre for Clermont, and he's been destroyed by injuries for a long time now. When fit and used properly in his prime he was really good for France, it wasn't ability that held him back.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby paddyor » February 11th, 2019, 12:06 am

wixfjord wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:I dunno, I think I'm with Logo on this. Great players don't get found out and always change their game to continue making the difference. Fofanna was class when he came on the scene, but he topped out and stopped developing his game. He is a very good player, but not someone who can change a game.


Nah, never saw him change a game either...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2VUwrBK3F8

I'm not calling any of the above greats of the game. But they're objectively very talented players, many with very French temperaments who haven't had the structure, coaching or consistency to properly get the most out of themselves.

As we Leinster fans should know better than anyone, players need that to really compete at the highest level.

Wow, that was 6 years ago.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby neiliog93 » February 11th, 2019, 4:08 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:You could write a book on this topic and the players aren't blameless but a lack of talent isn't their problem. Toulon won three European cups in a row, they played an all French final in 2015 against Clermont who also made the final in 2017, and Racing have made two of the last three finals too. I know those teams all had plenty of foreigners but there were enough French players in it to have made for a better national team. This season they have Racing and Toulouse in the CC QFs, so many of those Toulouse players in the squad have beaten the European champions and are topping the league this season. They have ability and they've had plenty of winners in the squad over the last few years. They also lost to Tonga at the 2011 World Cup and actually made the final after sidelining the coach and deciding to run the team themselves, and would have won it too if it wasn't for some appalling refereeing. Different times but my point is that the ability is there and the attitude can be right depending on the environment.

As for Fofana, IIRC they put him on the wing at first (where he actually did pretty well) despite him being so good in the centre for Clermont, and he's been destroyed by injuries for a long time now. When fit and used properly in his prime he was really good for France, it wasn't ability that held him back.


Toulon won three in a row largely because of non-French players. Same for Clermont's strength.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby neiliog93 » February 11th, 2019, 4:12 am

Irish people and the Irish media have an incredible habit of overhyping France. They have some good individuals and are under-performing relative to their talent levels, fair enough. They could be coached better.

But examples of players who just aren't as good as people say they are include Poirot, Vahamaahina (duuurrr), Parra, Lopez, FIckou, Ntamack (yet) and others. How many would make an Irish team?...Guirado and Picamoles in the starting team and maybe Dupont and Penaud on the bench. Bastareaud would have a shout if we wanted to play a boshing game in the centres.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby ronk » February 11th, 2019, 4:51 am

neiliog93 wrote:Irish people and the Irish media have an incredible habit of overhyping France. They have some good individuals and are under-performing relative to their talent levels, fair enough. They could be coached better.

But examples of players who just aren't as good as people say they are include Poirot, Vahamaahina (duuurrr), Parra, Lopez, FIckou, Ntamack (yet) and others. How many would make an Irish team?...Guirado and Picamoles in the starting team and maybe Dupont and Penaud on the bench. Bastareaud would have a shout if we wanted to play a boshing game in the centres.


France were our bogey team in the 6N. Both our modern slams happened after we got over France in the 1st game and could have a run at the tournament.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby neiliog93 » February 11th, 2019, 7:07 am

ronk wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:Irish people and the Irish media have an incredible habit of overhyping France. They have some good individuals and are under-performing relative to their talent levels, fair enough. They could be coached better.

But examples of players who just aren't as good as people say they are include Poirot, Vahamaahina (duuurrr), Parra, Lopez, FIckou, Ntamack (yet) and others. How many would make an Irish team?...Guirado and Picamoles in the starting team and maybe Dupont and Penaud on the bench. Bastareaud would have a shout if we wanted to play a boshing game in the centres.


France were our bogey team in the 6N. Both our modern slams happened after we got over France in the 1st game and could have a run at the tournament.


That's true - they've tended to play well against us and on several occasions we've been unusually poor against them (2004, 2006 first half, 2010). They've also been very lucky several times with dodgy refereeing decisions/late tries (2005, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2016).
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby ronk » February 11th, 2019, 7:47 am

We always knew (@so did England) that we could beat them with pure post-colonial hatred.

France were never troubled by that. They believe that they win if they play well.

England went through a rubbish period before Stu rebuilt them. France are the same. They haven't really figured themselves out (yet).
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby neiliog93 » February 11th, 2019, 9:16 am

With the changes France are making around number of foreign players allowed per team in the Top 14, sheer numbers (it's their second sport in a country of nearly 70 million), not to mention the masse importing of freakishly athletic Polynesians and to a lesser extent Afrikaners, they'll probably have a revival in time for the 2023 World Cup on home soil.

On the foreign players qualifying through residency, while Laporte said in 2017 they would cease selecting any more residency-qualified players from that point on, the fact they give Willemse his debut in this year's Six Nations shows that wasn't sincere. They'll also be less affected by the change to a five-year residency rule as their clubs brings in Georgians, South Africans and Pacific Islanders in their teens, and they have 14+ teams all at it.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Peg Leg » February 11th, 2019, 9:20 am

neiliog93 wrote: Bastareaud would have a shout if we wanted to play a boshing game in the centres.


He'd be the first name on the teamsheet based on the evidence in our first two games so.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 11th, 2019, 12:32 pm

neiliog93 wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote: I know those teams all had plenty of foreigners but there were enough French players in it to have made for a better national team.


Toulon won three in a row largely because of non-French players. Same for Clermont's strength.


You must not have read that part.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 11th, 2019, 12:38 pm

neiliog93 wrote:But examples of players who just aren't as good as people say they are include Poirot, Vahamaahina (duuurrr), Parra, Lopez, FIckou, Ntamack (yet) and others.

'
I do agree with that, especially Vahamaahina because of his discipline, but they're still part of the group that's underperforming.

It's not that I think they should be winning Grand Slams every year, but they are far better than the sum of their parts right now and should be competitive in every game. Also think their inconsistency shows that they do have talent. I know the results in NZ were poor but they played some great stuff and were really unlucky with the cards they picked up. They were good for large parts against SA and then the first half against Wales too.
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