Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby thecomedian » February 3rd, 2019, 8:46 pm

Oldschool wrote:
thecomedian wrote:Huge overreaction on here.
England were class and played to their potential which is something they haven’t done regularly.
The defended like we normally would, their speed off the line is what caused us problems.
Murray wasn’t great but I was disappointed with Sexton. He wasn’t influencing the game. Bringing on Joey and Cooney earlier wouldn’t have make any difference to the result IMO but it would have being good to see how they cope it that situation.
Henshaw should be 12 and it still seems a very strange decision.

The small glimpse of SOB over the last few weeks reminds me of why he is one of our greatest backrows ever

Your wrong on nearly everything you posted except the comments about Henshaw and SOB
The reaction is the right one.
Yesterday's performance was unacceptable.
Pounds Shillings and Pence Ireland is no longer legal or acceptable currency.
To say that Murray and Sexton weren't great and that Joey and Cooney wouldn't have made any difference is poppy c~*k They're both damn good players a lot better than anything either Sexton or Murray produced
yesterday. Cooney demonstrated that in the few minutes he was on, upped the tempo immediately and the team responded.
There was/is something not right with both of them.


So you disagree with me that England were class.
That their line speed caused us problems and they defended like we normally would.

You think we would have won if Joey and Cooney came on earlier???

I still think theirs a big over reaction.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby hugonaut » February 3rd, 2019, 8:52 pm

suisse wrote:I was seated on half way West Stand right up at the back. After the terrible start, we settled and for around 20 mins, were in complete control. Sexton kicks tp the corner at 3-7 and we make it count. At that moment, I thought we would win this game by 7-10 points.

A few mins later, my dad and I noticed that even though England had the ball, they offered absolutely no width. Ireland's defensive line was spread out and we didn't commit anyone to the breakdown. The English fans in front of us were bemoaning the complete lack of options available to Ben Youngs. We seemed to completely have their number and then suddenly a speculative grubber brings on an unforced error and England score 7 points. I know people keep saying we were only 4 down with 15 mins to go, but I felt that try changed the game completely and we never looked like being able to wrestle back the initiative. Ireland were sluggish, made errors and were out fought.


Didn't see that kick as speculative at all, beyond the idea that all attacking kicks are speculative to a degree. It was exceptionally well judged from a guy [Elliott Daly] who has a really good kicking game - he's a phenomenal striker of the ball, both out of hand and off the tee.

There's no positive outcome for Ireland from that kick. Stockdale had to gather it before he went over the line, or Nowell could have picked his pocket for the score. If he hadn't lost control when Nowell smashed him, it would still have been a 5m attacking scrum to England with 10mins before halftime. Now, it turned out that it was the worst possible outcome, but it's the very definition of a forced error. Stockdale got absolutely smashed from behind and dropped a ball he had barely gathered.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby hugonaut » February 3rd, 2019, 9:06 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here is how poor our passing was, left to right, right to left, forwards and backs - it was very bad - too high, too low, behind the passee, the whole gamut of passing error was on display. And by passing I also mean the decision on when to pass and if a pass should be made in the first place. Now a huge amount of credit for that has to go to the immense pressure England were putting us under - not only physically, but mentally also, but the players have to take responsibility too for being so poor at such a basic aspect of the game.


Most of our worst passing came from our halfbacks, in my opinion. If Luke McGrath or Kieran Marmion had played as badly as Conor Murray did, he'd be absolutely hauled over the coals. His name would be mud.

Murray has been a sensational player for us and has earned his Mulligan, but that was a particularly poor performance, never mind in comparison to his previous high standards. Sexton obviously had a couple of horrors, albeit one of his bouncers should have been run on to by Sean Cronin. But the intercept pass [Slade's second try] was a dreadful option.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Zyvis » February 3rd, 2019, 9:43 pm

This was several factors and was far too complex to be singling out any names.
We start the 6N badly every time = issue
We were playing our number eight for an hour with a badly broken face = massive issue
We were playing guys with very little gametime = issue
England outsmarted, outplayed and out-cheated us = issue
We had zero answer to a simple power gameplan = issue (plus even schoolkids know that you hit big jumped up powerful players hard and low and chop them down)
We were too caught up trying to play like us and choke tackle, and they were just laughing at us. Players were not subbed early enough.
I am going to single out a name, but not a player. Joe messed this one up and I'm sure being the guy he is he wouldn't mind people saying that.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Oldschool » February 3rd, 2019, 10:16 pm

thecomedian wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
thecomedian wrote:Huge overreaction on here.
England were class and played to their potential which is something they haven’t done regularly.
The defended like we normally would, their speed off the line is what caused us problems.
Murray wasn’t great but I was disappointed with Sexton. He wasn’t influencing the game. Bringing on Joey and Cooney earlier wouldn’t have make any difference to the result IMO but it would have being good to see how they cope it that situation.
Henshaw should be 12 and it still seems a very strange decision.

The small glimpse of SOB over the last few weeks reminds me of why he is one of our greatest backrows ever

Your wrong on nearly everything you posted except the comments about Henshaw and SOB
The reaction is the right one.
Yesterday's performance was unacceptable.
Pounds Shillings and Pence Ireland is no longer legal or acceptable currency.
To say that Murray and Sexton weren't great and that Joey and Cooney wouldn't have made any difference is poppy c~*k They're both damn good players a lot better than anything either Sexton or Murray produced
yesterday. Cooney demonstrated that in the few minutes he was on, upped the tempo immediately and the team responded.
There was/is something not right with both of them.


So you disagree with me that England were class.
That their line speed caused us problems and they defended like we normally would.

You think we would have won if Joey and Cooney came on earlier???

I still think theirs a big over reaction.

Read my post again, I see no reason to add or subtract anything.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Jonny tight lips » February 3rd, 2019, 11:12 pm

Look no further for the reason we lost the game, the shelbyvillieans have figured it out. Surprisingly enough it’s Rob Kearneys fault .... bit of a head scratcher since he wasn’t playing but there ya go.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby thecomedian » February 3rd, 2019, 11:19 pm

Oldschool wrote:
thecomedian wrote:
Oldschool wrote:[quote="thecomedian"]Huge overreaction on here.
England were class and played to their potential which is something they haven’t done regularly.
The defended like we normally would, their speed off the line is what caused us problems.
Murray wasn’t great but I was disappointed with Sexton. He wasn’t influencing the game. Bringing on Joey and Cooney earlier wouldn’t have make any difference to the result IMO but it would have being good to see how they cope it that situation.
Henshaw should be 12 and it still seems a very strange decision.

The small glimpse of SOB over the last few weeks reminds me of why he is one of our greatest backrows ever

Your wrong on nearly everything you posted except the comments about Henshaw and SOB
The reaction is the right one.
Yesterday's performance was unacceptable.
Pounds Shillings and Pence Ireland is no longer legal or acceptable currency.
To say that Murray and Sexton weren't great and that Joey and Cooney wouldn't have made any difference is poppy c~*k They're both damn good players a lot better than anything either Sexton or Murray produced
yesterday. Cooney demonstrated that in the few minutes he was on, upped the tempo immediately and the team responded.
There was/is something not right with both of them.


So you disagree with me that England were class.
That their line speed caused us problems and they defended like we normally would.

You think we would have won if Joey and Cooney came on earlier???

I still think theirs a big over reaction.

Read my post again, I see no reason to add or subtract anything.[/quote]

Well if you’re going to tell someone that they are WRONG on almost everything they posted, you could at least answer my reply.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 4th, 2019, 12:54 am

hugonaut wrote:
Most of our worst passing came from our halfbacks, in my opinion. If Luke McGrath or Kieran Marmion had played as badly as Conor Murray did, he'd be absolutely hauled over the coals. His name would be mud.

Murray has been a sensational player for us and has earned his Mulligan, but that was a particularly poor performance, never mind in comparison to his previous high standards. Sexton obviously had a couple of horrors, albeit one of his bouncers should have been run on to by Sean Cronin. But the intercept pass [Slade's second try] was a dreadful option.


Can't remember what it was but something made me think that Sexton may have thought we had advantage before that intercept.

We looked fairly clueless when we won the ball back scrappily at times. We threw some stupid passes that were straight out of the French playbook from Friday and I was baffled by what we tried to do when Johnny kicked ahead and we won the ball back near their 22 (bit sketchy on the details, haven't watched it back). It's like we thought we had advantage and stopped playing when a try was there for the taking, think we did get a penalty in the end but that came after we had switched off.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Fan with smartphone » February 4th, 2019, 4:57 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
suisse wrote:The full back experiment backfired spectacularly. Too many people all week saying put your best players on the park but that's not how it works. You put the best players in each position on the park. I don't understand why Joey Carbery was 'moved' to Munster if we're not gonna use when the starting 10 is having a nightmare. Reputations shouldn't count. Either Sexton should have gone or Carbery should have come on at 15 much earlier. To have a very talented and in form play maker sitting on the bench for 70 mins of a game we had very little attacking momentum is terrible management.


For me the mistake wasn't trying to see what Robbie looked like at fullback, it was doing it against England when he hasn't played there in ages and has barely played in the last couple of months anyway. It'll be interesting to see if we try it again next week, wouldn't be surprised either way but Earls' injury complicates things a little bit. It may work in the future or it may not, but he shouldn't have been thrown in cold against England to find out.

A lot of things would have to happen but I wonder if there's any chance of Adam Byrne being in the mix this week? If Rob isn't fancied for whatever reason (suspect he will be) and if we wanted to double down on Larmour as being the backup 15, then that would leave a spot on the wing and Addison would be great bench cover. Highly unlikely but you never know.


I’d agree on Henshaw. Joe has a lot of faith in him putting him into this particular game. It didn’t work out at all on Saturday, was a bit of a ‘mare, but it’s hugely valuable time for him all the same. Like the Australian first test last year we were experimenting a bit and I personally think that’s entirely sensible. A feature of Joe’s teams in Leinster were slow starts to the season and he was also prone to “engineering slumps” I think I’ve seen it described as. Last year the French game was stuttery like that too, but things picked up over the course of the tournament. I’ve never been as indifferent myself towards a game against England. That’s not to give the performance a bye ball but lets be honest, this 6 nations is all about the World Cup for us. We are coming off huge highs last year 6nations, European cup and November. England are in a different position in trying to generate momentum.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Flash Gordon » February 4th, 2019, 11:05 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
hugonaut wrote:
Most of our worst passing came from our halfbacks, in my opinion. If Luke McGrath or Kieran Marmion had played as badly as Conor Murray did, he'd be absolutely hauled over the coals. His name would be mud.

Murray has been a sensational player for us and has earned his Mulligan, but that was a particularly poor performance, never mind in comparison to his previous high standards. Sexton obviously had a couple of horrors, albeit one of his bouncers should have been run on to by Sean Cronin. But the intercept pass [Slade's second try] was a dreadful option.


Can't remember what it was but something made me think that Sexton may have thought we had advantage before that intercept.

We looked fairly clueless when we won the ball back scrappily at times. We threw some stupid passes that were straight out of the French playbook from Friday and I was baffled by what we tried to do when Johnny kicked ahead and we won the ball back near their 22 (bit sketchy on the details, haven't watched it back). It's like we thought we had advantage and stopped playing when a try was there for the taking, think we did get a penalty in the end but that came after we had switched off.


The intercept pass for the last England try was crazy. We'd lost the game so from a championship perspective bonus points matter, we were -1 on that play.

Our backrow was completely dicked, Porter and Cronin made more gains in their cameos than our entire starting backrow did - we didn't win one turnover. Aki created nothing although the service he was getting from our below par half backs didn't help. Stockdale had an absolute mare and Earls was very poor. Our kick and chase game was awful, I know England were crowding the catch zone but the kicks were too deep and nobody seemed to chase with any level of conviction.

Our skipper didn't seem up for it, his stats are appalling, thought he should have got the shepherd's hook around 50 minutes to give Cronin a chance to impact.

England were very very good, they gave us no space or time, were fit and perfectly timed. Coaching wise, Jones had the measure of us and I was disappointed Joe didn't react to what was in front of him. We didn't seem to have a plan B at all.

Good lesson but a bad day!
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby backrower8 » February 4th, 2019, 11:32 am

I was staggered to see Mako & Jamie George being substituted on 76 minutes, these were supposed to be the flogged English compared to our rested, tapered equivalents. They have an extra day's rest before France but still.

Curry, at just 20, was very impressive.

This was so bad, so off, so lacking in a discernible game plan relative to what we have seen before that it leaves me wondering if Joe has really prepared as he usually does for the tournament and if it really was 'just' a matter of being mentally undercooked versus a side that was primed. I hope it was the latter but feel that it was more than a blip. That was such a hammering that it will have wreaked psychological havoc on the squad that will be hard to dispel in Murrayfield.

Owen Farrell's leadership was excellent and really evident. Even before England's kick-off to start the match, we were lined out in position and the english team were in a huddle, in their own mental zone, before unleashing a blitzkrieg start. He also called them in for a huddle after the final whistle. Bye, bye Dylan.

The Aviva crowd was back to it's pampered worst. Pampered poodles waiting to be entertained. Such a fall off from the All Blacks game (understandable to a degree) which in itself was a throw back to the Lansdowne Road era when raw atmospheres built from the terraces and a crowd really hungry for rugby entertainment (as opposed to a day out) made it awkward for opposing teams and officials alike. When Garces gave the first Slade try and with it a 9 (potentially 11) point lead despite a 3m forward pass (velocity me arse) and Slade being a metre ahead (proven by the application of a straight line on Virgin's coverage) the crowd hardly bleeted. We weren't the better side but we had a puncher's chance until that happened.

Vering well off course now, but the anaemic crowd is symptomatic of how the sport is being hollowed out. A lack of real fans (yes real fans) in attendance, instead it is firstly a money making exercise (booze, food and merchandise) and secondly a social occasion. Thirdly it is about 'entertainment', which is fine but in itself but the rules of rugby union are being eroded and we are ending up with league: crooked feeds at first phase, hindmost-foot-me-arse despite 4 officials, going off feet, sealing-off, in from the side, forward passes legitimised by the laws of physics, obstruction both on the kick-chase and in having two or three lines of attackers.

The only bit they haven't hollowed out is the scrum. It is a sacred cow that eats between 1 and 2 minutes of a match every time one is called. Each one is an 8th wonder of time-wasting . As soon as te whistle is blown for a scrum we have a conference between any player(s) who want to approach the referee about anything whatsoever that is going on in the game, only then do the forwards assemble very slowly, at which point the referee attempts to hold a master class in scrummaging and clarification of issues with the front rows, only then do they begin to bind and set their stance slowly and meticulously, the second rows then follow slowly behind the front row, etc, etc before the ball is fed crookedly and the scrum has a 50-50 chance of needing to be reset.

I have got to the stage after over 40 years of fanatical following of the game that it find it hard to watch matches that Leinster or Ireland aren't involved in because it is largely turgid and brutally dangerous all built winning through obstruction and bending/breaking the laws.

Finally, did anyone else think that there were more visits to the pitch by water carriers (3 on each side each time) than you are likely to see over 90 minutes of soccer in the Qatar World Cup? More time wasting, chats with the referee and time wasting!!
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby wixfjord » February 4th, 2019, 12:06 pm

backrower8 wrote:
The Aviva crowd was back to it's pampered worst. Pampered poodles waiting to be entertained. Such a fall off from the All Blacks game (understandable to a degree) which in itself was a throw back to the Lansdowne Road era when raw atmospheres built from the terraces and a crowd really hungry for rugby entertainment (as opposed to a day out) made it awkward for opposing teams and officials alike. When Garces gave the first Slade try and with it a 9 (potentially 11) point lead despite a 3m forward pass (velocity me arse) and Slade being a metre ahead (proven by the application of a straight line on Virgin's coverage) the crowd hardly bleeted. We weren't the better side but we had a puncher's chance until that happened.




Maybe the crowd was full of 'real fans' who were aware that under the laws of the game the pass was not forward?

In your 40 years of true rugger fandom did you not learn that bit?!
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Dave Cahill » February 4th, 2019, 12:24 pm

backrower8 wrote:proven by the application of a straight line on Virgin's coverage


Sorry but this really gets on my tits.

That proves nothing. There is nothing in the laws that says the ball can not go forward from a pass. In fact, most passes go forward, and the faster the passing player is moving forward in relation to the speed of the ball leaving his hands, the more forward the pass will go. If you run foward quickly and lob the ball back over your head the ball will always go forward. The law is against the ball being thrown forward.

Now, I haven't watched the game again, but saying that a line drawn on the pitch proves the pass was forward is simply wrong. All it proves is that the ball went forward - and that isn't against the laws

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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 4th, 2019, 12:51 pm

I thought it was clearly forward, his right arm doesn't whip it back at all.

People can argue that but regardless of what people think it should have been checked. That TJ is brutal and when I saw he'd said it was fine that basically confirmed to me that it wasn't :lol:

Don't care about it going against us though, we were well beaten.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby LeinsterLeader » February 4th, 2019, 12:57 pm

backrower8 wrote:I was staggered to see Mako & Jamie George being substituted on 76 minutes, these were supposed to be the flogged English compared to our rested, tapered equivalents. They have an extra day's rest before France but still.

Curry, at just 20, was very impressive.

This was so bad, so off, so lacking in a discernible game plan relative to what we have seen before that it leaves me wondering if Joe has really prepared as he usually does for the tournament and if it really was 'just' a matter of being mentally undercooked versus a side that was primed. I hope it was the latter but feel that it was more than a blip. That was such a hammering that it will have wreaked psychological havoc on the squad that will be hard to dispel in Murrayfield.

Owen Farrell's leadership was excellent and really evident. Even before England's kick-off to start the match, we were lined out in position and the english team were in a huddle, in their own mental zone, before unleashing a blitzkrieg start. He also called them in for a huddle after the final whistle. Bye, bye Dylan.

The Aviva crowd was back to it's pampered worst. Pampered poodles waiting to be entertained. Such a fall off from the All Blacks game (understandable to a degree) which in itself was a throw back to the Lansdowne Road era when raw atmospheres built from the terraces and a crowd really hungry for rugby entertainment (as opposed to a day out) made it awkward for opposing teams and officials alike. When Garces gave the first Slade try and with it a 9 (potentially 11) point lead despite a 3m forward pass (velocity me arse) and Slade being a metre ahead (proven by the application of a straight line on Virgin's coverage) the crowd hardly bleeted. We weren't the better side but we had a puncher's chance until that happened.

Vering well off course now, but the anaemic crowd is symptomatic of how the sport is being hollowed out. A lack of real fans (yes real fans) in attendance, instead it is firstly a money making exercise (booze, food and merchandise) and secondly a social occasion. Thirdly it is about 'entertainment', which is fine but in itself but the rules of rugby union are being eroded and we are ending up with league: crooked feeds at first phase, hindmost-foot-me-arse despite 4 officials, going off feet, sealing-off, in from the side, forward passes legitimised by the laws of physics, obstruction both on the kick-chase and in having two or three lines of attackers.

The only bit they haven't hollowed out is the scrum. It is a sacred cow that eats between 1 and 2 minutes of a match every time one is called. Each one is an 8th wonder of time-wasting . As soon as te whistle is blown for a scrum we have a conference between any player(s) who want to approach the referee about anything whatsoever that is going on in the game, only then do the forwards assemble very slowly, at which point the referee attempts to hold a master class in scrummaging and clarification of issues with the front rows, only then do they begin to bind and set their stance slowly and meticulously, the second rows then follow slowly behind the front row, etc, etc before the ball is fed crookedly and the scrum has a 50-50 chance of needing to be reset.

I have got to the stage after over 40 years of fanatical following of the game that it find it hard to watch matches that Leinster or Ireland aren't involved in because it is largely turgid and brutally dangerous all built winning through obstruction and bending/breaking the laws.

Finally, did anyone else think that there were more visits to the pitch by water carriers (3 on each side each time) than you are likely to see over 90 minutes of soccer in the Qatar World Cup? More time wasting, chats with the referee and time wasting!!


I got my ticket off a guy on Landsdowne Rd (that's where I get most my tickets to be honest. Don't have any contacts with the IRFU) so didn't know where I was sitting. Ended up sitting with a load of Munster supporters. They weren't very complimentary about the Leinster players but they were good and raucous so the atmosphere for me was pretty good (as good as could be expected under the circumstances). Where were you sitting BR8?
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby fourthirtythree » February 4th, 2019, 12:58 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I thought it was clearly forward, his right arm doesn't whip it back at all.

People can argue that but regardless of what people think it should have been checked. That TJ is brutal and when I saw he'd said it was fine that basically confirmed to me that it wasn't :lol:

Don't care about it going against us though, we were well beaten.


The TMO sounded quite surprised that Garces didn't want to check it! IIRC he said "are you sure you don't want to check the pass". I didn't see the replay of it, it looked dodgy at the time but I simply can't be trusted. I kind of ignored it though as the telly were waffling on about how it was caught in front of the line it was passed from which means nothing more than the passer was travelling when it was released...
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 4th, 2019, 1:22 pm

He did and I thought there was an easy work around there, the TMO should have just started the replay from when the pass was made.

Best's captaincy left a lot to be desired on Saturday too. I wasn't there so don't know if he asked Garces about it straight away or if it was only at the end of the process when it was too late, but given that Joe was giving out about England being off their feet and blocking our chasers he should really have been more vocal throughout the whole game. He was brushed away at one point but Garces is usually up for a chat and easy to deal with so don't know why he was so quiet.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Peg Leg » February 4th, 2019, 1:35 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I thought it was clearly forward, his right arm doesn't whip it back at all.

People can argue that but regardless of what people think it should have been checked. That TJ is brutal and when I saw he'd said it was fine that basically confirmed to me that it wasn't :lol:

Don't care about it going against us though, we were well beaten.
He didn't say it was fine, Garces told him specifically not to review that. Also, whatever about the pass, Healy did not ground for his try, that was the bigger mistake imo.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 4th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Peg Leg wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I thought it was clearly forward, his right arm doesn't whip it back at all.

People can argue that but regardless of what people think it should have been checked. That TJ is brutal and when I saw he'd said it was fine that basically confirmed to me that it wasn't :lol:

Don't care about it going against us though, we were well beaten.
He didn't say it was fine, Garces told him specifically not to review that. Also, whatever about the pass, Healy did not ground for his try, that was the bigger mistake imo.


I said the TJ, not the TMO.
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Re: Ireland v England. Saturday, February 2nd.

Postby Peg Leg » February 4th, 2019, 2:16 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I thought it was clearly forward, his right arm doesn't whip it back at all.

People can argue that but regardless of what people think it should have been checked. That TJ is brutal and when I saw he'd said it was fine that basically confirmed to me that it wasn't :lol:

Don't care about it going against us though, we were well beaten.
He didn't say it was fine, Garces told him specifically not to review that. Also, whatever about the pass, Healy did not ground for his try, that was the bigger mistake imo.


I said the TJ, not the TMO.
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