RWC 2019

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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Twist » September 30th, 2019, 10:18 am

Another rake of poor decisions in Wales v. Aus. Refereeing is in danger of deciding this competition
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Logorrhea » September 30th, 2019, 10:47 am

Thought Poite manage the TMO interventions quite well. It looked to me as if he didn't agree but had to so gave the lightest sanction for nothing offenses.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Twist » September 30th, 2019, 11:12 am

Yeah, I was more thinking of the non-policing of the offside line though. He missed some very clear ones at crucial times. The Davies try is the obvious one but by no means the most blatant. Also (Jerry Seinfeld voice) what the deal with crooked lineout throws?
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby cormac » September 30th, 2019, 11:14 am

Twist wrote:Yeah, I was more thinking of the non-policing of the offside line though. He missed some very clear ones at crucial times. The Davies try is the obvious one but by no means the most blatant. Also (Jerry Seinfeld voice) what the deal with crooked lineout throws?


Was hard to see on the replays but fairly certain Gareth Davies was onside for his intercept try.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » September 30th, 2019, 5:06 pm

Twist wrote:Yeah, I was more thinking of the non-policing of the offside line though. He missed some very clear ones at crucial times. The Davies try is the obvious one but by no means the most blatant. Also (Jerry Seinfeld voice) what the deal with crooked lineout throws?


For years ( in fact since I retired as a Ref) I've told Irish Refs & World Rugby that the only position from which to judge offside is high in the Stand - usually at Commentator level.

World Rugby, then the International Rugby Board - gave me the courtesy of a reply in 2007 and said they could not consider such a Law change or Referee position because it was stated policy that all changes in Rugby Law had to be capable of being applied for all games, regardless of the level of game.

In NFL the longest running professional field sport, the owners and players accepted the positioning of an Umpire in the Stand (the Eye in the Sky) at the end of the Season in which the first 'all-games TV Contracts', shared between the three Networks, were agreed in September 1970. In a 1990 review of NFL umpiring, it was determined that the Eye in the Sky got more decisions right than any of the other on-field Umpires.

From a practical perspective, trying to police offside from the touchline position is very difficult for the following reasons:

1. The breakdown/ ruck / maul which establishes the offside line may be 50 /60 mtrs away with players off their feet or on the ground or retiring to their own side, between the Assistant Referee and the point, the hindmost foot, where the offside line is being determined (and this moves as players change position);

2. The majority of pitches in the NH are not flat but slightly concave for drainage purposes, making it difficult to actually see the feet of the players on the far side of the pitch or the far side of a breakdown;

3. When the play is on the side of the pitch near the Assistant Referee, the line of sight can be obscured by a player crossing through his line of sight and the closer the player is, the greater the disruption;

4. Offside is not the only offence for which the Assistant Referees are responsible, in fact Foul Play and the height of the tackle and illegal hand / forearm hand-offs take precedence.

All of these factors make policing offside all but impossible for an AR on the Touchline. Combine these facts with the reality that on average referees are not as tall as most forwards, at every level of the adult game, and it may be understood that this role is very difficult.

If fans want change and reasonable eradication of offside, the greatest deterrent to open rugby, raise your voices for the appointment of an "Eye in the Sky" at least for all televised games - because in such games it can be proven after the event how often the Officials are missing this infringement
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » September 30th, 2019, 5:26 pm

Said this before but it's nonsense not to let the TMO intervene with offsides. At the very least they should be able to communicate with a ref during the game or at half time that a team is often offside in midfield or whatever the specifics are so that they can keep an eye on it. The idea that law changes have to apply at all levels goes out the window with the TMO anyway given that they're only in the pro game.

The ref in the Ulster match on Friday was brutal and I noticed that he had a habit of looking away from the ruck to try and watch the offside line. So he'd look at a ruck, then look away, and as he did so there'd be a hand in the ruck or a dirty clearout or whatever but he'd miss it. As the game went on one of the TJs got more and more vocal because the ref kept missing things. I'm on board with that 100% but I wonder if there's been a directive for TJs not to get involved as much because I noticed, particularly at the World Cup, that TJs are often mute for most of the game apart from when there's a decision around a try being scored or not.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » September 30th, 2019, 5:54 pm

cormac wrote:
Twist wrote:Yeah, I was more thinking of the non-policing of the offside line though. He missed some very clear ones at crucial times. The Davies try is the obvious one but by no means the most blatant. Also (Jerry Seinfeld voice) what the deal with crooked lineout throws?


Was hard to see on the replays but fairly certain Gareth Davies was onside for his intercept try.


tend to agree. last video clip in this https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/491788
scrum half took a few steps and davies looks onside to me. as the article points out...it was a known weakness with the SH and davies almost pulled it off earlier in the game.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby backrower8 » September 30th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Not exclusive to RWC, but I think that World Rugby have a target range as regards the acceptable number of penalties in matches in order for it to well received by a TV audience. It is the only way I can explain how, despite a team of 4 (referee, 2 TMOs and TVMO) they can miss so many infringements and completely ignore others:

- crooked feed (scrum or line-out)
- last foot at ruck or maul
- sealing off
- diving off feet
- no pushing before ball is put into scrum
- behind the kicker
- in from the side
- holding on after the tackle (the tackled player is given every latitude in this regard)

Also, if playing the ball when on the ground is an offence, why is it now ok to play a pass from the ground? Previously you could do so if you passed immediately after you hit the deck, now you can pick your moment...whenever that happens. Has the rule changed?
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 2nd, 2019, 9:29 am

Another SH ref in USA v Fr and yet another atrocious performance. Two clear warning against the French on their try line but no YC and no penalty try. The first warning was for a succession of collapsed Mauls while the second was for persistent infringement of offside line within 5 mtrs from the line.

By the letter of the law, both should habeen tries to the USA and one Yellow Card.

The score is 12-6 to France so these are critical conditions just at the end of the first half.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 2nd, 2019, 10:52 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:Another SH ref in USA v Fr and yet another atrocious performance. Two clear warning against the French on their try line but no YC and no penalty try. The first warning was for a succession of collapsed Mauls while the second was for persistent infringement of offside line within 5 mtrs from the line.

By the letter of the law, both should habeen tries to the USA and one Yellow Card.

The score is 12-6 to France so these are critical conditions just at the end of the first half.


I wasn't watching but saw a lot of chat about O'Keefe on twitter. He's awful, the other day he was the TJ in the Argentina game and missed a blatant forward pass that he was right in line with and even had the 5m line (and the lineout) as a guide but gave a thumbs up to the ref and it wasn't even checked.

He's very easily influenced by the players as well, and I can't remember what the offence was but I remember the Irish players had to remind him of a law change at a game in the Aviva a year or two ago after he'd whistled for the wrong thing.

I honestly think that the the choice of ref is as important to our QF chances as the fitness of Johnny etc
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby jimbobjoe » October 2nd, 2019, 11:47 am

To think I used to dread seeing Wayne Barnes' name as ref for an Ireland game and now he's my preferred option. Shame he's retiring from international duty soon.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Dexter » October 2nd, 2019, 12:20 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:To think I used to dread seeing Wayne Barnes' name as ref for an Ireland game and now he's my preferred option. Shame he's retiring from international duty soon.

+1
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 3rd, 2019, 5:56 am

jimbobjoe wrote:To think I used to dread seeing Wayne Barnes' name as ref for an Ireland game and now he's my preferred option. Shame he's retiring from international duty soon.


If he and Owens (rumoured) departing in the same season, the NH will be totally dominated by French refs. Probably 4 of top 6 at the moment and could be all of top 5 in a year. The next Englishman, Luke Pease, is reasonably but you wouldn't want him in the RWC q/f as he favors 'the big boys'

Somebody should convince Barnes to stay on - he'll be a long time retired.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 3rd, 2019, 7:28 am

Paul Williams (NZ) is giving a very credible refereeing performance in Georgia v Fiji this morning. In heavy rain, the Georgian forwards and their defence have been above expectations in first half and he has refereed the game based on what's happened.

Credit where credit is due.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby neill_m » October 3rd, 2019, 9:27 am

Fiji got a 45-10 BP win over Georgia to basically qualify for 2023 barring any crazy results. The Uruguay defeat killed any chances of making the QF. They may be a dangerous opponent for the Welsh who need a max 7 points to top their pool.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 4th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Whoever faces S Africa in a Quarter Final will have to face a pack with enormous size and power, a No 10 with a sharp attacking mind and skills to match and the best attacking winger in the world. Apart from that they're ordinary.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby neill_m » October 4th, 2019, 1:02 pm

The red card in the South Africa Italy game was worse than the O'Driscoll incident in the 2005 Lions Tour. The whistle had gone. Should have been a double red.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby flustered » October 4th, 2019, 1:12 pm

Kolbe is unreal! Cut supply off to him and you take away their creativity, I dont think much of Le Roux at FB anymore! Pollard and Kolbe are key for them

Would love Kolbe at Leinster
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby FLIP » October 4th, 2019, 1:45 pm

neill_m wrote:The red card in the South Africa Italy game was worse than the O'Driscoll incident in the 2005 Lions Tour. The whistle had gone. Should have been a double red.


Awful bad. Although I think 17 was the culpable party and should have been the one sent off.
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Re: RWC 2019

Postby Oldschool » October 4th, 2019, 4:45 pm

On the face of it the SA v ITA result looks alarming.
However the truth is that COS set a result like this up by selecting the team that he did.
Parisse is well passed it now, COS should never have called him back out of retirement.
He is an extremely skilful player, however he has two major flaws.
1. The team was Parissecentric because he's basically not a team player.
2. Far more damaging is/was his lack of discipline.
He was always a penalty machine.
He wouldn't have got anywhere near a JS squad.
Bottom line I'd still prefer to get a QF against SA
I'd still fancy our chances against NZ if we can get our act together.
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