RWC 2019

Forum for the discussion of all International Rugby

Moderator: moderators

Re: RWC 2019

Postby Dave Cahill » October 10th, 2019, 8:39 am

I think everyone is forgetting the real victim here, the thing that will be most affected by these cancellations. World Rugby's Bank Account.

Sure the competition has been devalued and undermined by this shambles, but thats only the sporting side of things, the integrity of competition. Scotland may go out of this world cup on the couch, Italy have gone out of the World Cup on the couch, but that doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that in cancelling England - France (and potentially Japan - Scotland) World Rugby will lose out on a massive revenue generating opportunity. A huge television audience that would be very attractive to advertisers and sponsors. They won't get to hoover up all that cash now.

Pray for Brett, poor Brett. Left without his twitter account, slowly rocking himself in an ever-cooling bath with only bonkers Augustin Pichot for company.
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 22346
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: RWC 2019

Postby nc6000 » October 10th, 2019, 9:11 am

Dave Cahill wrote:Pray for Brett, poor Brett. Left without his twitter account, slowly rocking himself in an ever-cooling bath with only bonkers Augustin Pichot for company.


That must be where they are because there wasn't any sign of them or Beaumont when the bad news was being delivered :

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/video/507864
User avatar
nc6000
Mullet
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: June 25th, 2007, 8:17 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby Dave Cahill » October 10th, 2019, 9:20 am

nc6000 wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Pray for Brett, poor Brett. Left without his twitter account, slowly rocking himself in an ever-cooling bath with only bonkers Augustin Pichot for company.


That must be where they are because there wasn't any sign of them or Beaumont when the bad news was being delivered :

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/video/507864
Gosper, who you couldn't keep off Twitter with a cattle prod and a baseball bat deleted his account after the first weekend and Pichot, who is an unstoppable rentaquote in the normal run of things has restricted himself to bibbling about the Pumas
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 22346
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: RWC 2019

Postby The Doc » October 10th, 2019, 9:25 am

Could people stop with the "just change venue" rubbish. It takes days just to move the kit for a team... that's before adding the complication of trying to do that when the general country is making preparations.

Changing to a venue down the road might be doable (but useless). But switching to another part of the country is not likely to happen
I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role.
I've got nothing against your right leg.
The trouble is ... neither have you
The Doc
Mullet
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: August 11th, 2006, 2:59 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 10th, 2019, 11:09 am

Can anyone explain to me why the rule about not changing the day exists? I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that. I can't say I ever thought about it but I'd have assumed that there was a rule saying that a game could be played within 24 hours or something like that.

Having the rule so black and white leaves games open to being called off for loads of reasons, not just weather.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 12992
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby OTT » October 10th, 2019, 11:15 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that.


Leinster played a game on a different day years ago when we had Newcastle and Toulouse in our group, Ulster have changed venue (and i think day) and most recently Saracens and Clermont played on a Monday night I think.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English
OTT
Mullet
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 5:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 10th, 2019, 11:19 am

See that seems strange to me that the Champions Cup would allow that but that the World Cup wouldn't have the same rules, I'd have thought that there'd be a fairly standard set of rules for all major competitions, not necessarily because they should be, but mainly because when you're coming up with the rules for a competition I'd have thought that you looked at what already existed and just copied it. And that if someone did notice a flaw and changed the rules accordingly then everyone else would do so as well.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 12992
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby cormac » October 10th, 2019, 11:22 am

OTT wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that.


Leinster played a game on a different day years ago when we had Newcastle and Toulouse in our group, Ulster have changed venue (and i think day) and most recently Saracens and Clermont played on a Monday night I think.


Yeah, that Newcastle game was postponed twice and ended up being played on a Tuesday night in Leeds. We won but got hammered five days later in Toulouse with Drico at fly-half.

That same season was also meant to start with the away game in Toulouse but they switched around the home and away games when the Toulouse home ground was badly damaged by a nearby explosion. Meant we started the group with three home games.
Look out Itchy, he's Irish
User avatar
cormac
Shane Jennings
 
Posts: 5696
Joined: May 24th, 2006, 2:05 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby cormac » October 10th, 2019, 11:25 am

I think there have also been games in either the Heineken or Challenge Cup that have been cancelled and never replayed. The away team have been awarded the match points on these occasions as the home team were supposed to have a playable pitch.
Look out Itchy, he's Irish
User avatar
cormac
Shane Jennings
 
Posts: 5696
Joined: May 24th, 2006, 2:05 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby The Doc » October 10th, 2019, 11:30 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can anyone explain to me why the rule about not changing the day exists? I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that. I can't say I ever thought about it but I'd have assumed that there was a rule saying that a game could be played within 24 hours or something like that.

Having the rule so black and white leaves games open to being called off for loads of reasons, not just weather.


Difference I imagine is the tight turnaround times in a World Cup - especially where different teams have different turnaround times. In the Champions Cup, all games are played weekend to weekend. In the pool stages, you could have a team with 7 days to their next game who would be fine with a 24 hour delay but the other team might have a 4 day turnaround.
I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role.
I've got nothing against your right leg.
The trouble is ... neither have you
The Doc
Mullet
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: August 11th, 2006, 2:59 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 10th, 2019, 11:57 am

The Doc wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can anyone explain to me why the rule about not changing the day exists? I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that. I can't say I ever thought about it but I'd have assumed that there was a rule saying that a game could be played within 24 hours or something like that.

Having the rule so black and white leaves games open to being called off for loads of reasons, not just weather.


Difference I imagine is the tight turnaround times in a World Cup - especially where different teams have different turnaround times. In the Champions Cup, all games are played weekend to weekend. In the pool stages, you could have a team with 7 days to their next game who would be fine with a 24 hour delay but the other team might have a 4 day turnaround.


Yeah I considered that but still don't see why the rule doesn't leave any wiggle room. It's not like an extra 24 hour window would mean that a game would have to be played regardless of the conditions, it could still be called off if that was in the best interests of the teams/competitions.

The rule about the stadium roof being closed sounded stupid to me as well. For me it would have made sense to leave it open unless the weather necessitated it to be shut.

Sounds to me like WR have got fixated on being fair but common sense has gone out the window. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't take the weather seriously of course, but can't understand why they couldn't wait until closer to kick off and then see what the weather was actually like.

This time last week we were facing into weather warnings here and nothing happened (in Dublin at least). Just for argument's sake say the Ospreys match had been called off because of a credible weather threat, I would have said that that was fair enough but to then not be able to play the next day despite having to time to plan for it and be able to judge the weather better would have been stupid IMO.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 12992
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 10th, 2019, 11:58 am

cormac wrote:I think there have also been games in either the Heineken or Challenge Cup that have been cancelled and never replayed. The away team have been awarded the match points on these occasions as the home team were supposed to have a playable pitch.


There was also that time where Bourgoin didn't turn up and Leinster played anyway.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 12992
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: RWC 2019

Postby Dave Cahill » October 10th, 2019, 11:59 am

The Doc wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can anyone explain to me why the rule about not changing the day exists? I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that. I can't say I ever thought about it but I'd have assumed that there was a rule saying that a game could be played within 24 hours or something like that.

Having the rule so black and white leaves games open to being called off for loads of reasons, not just weather.


Difference I imagine is the tight turnaround times in a World Cup - especially where different teams have different turnaround times. In the Champions Cup, all games are played weekend to weekend. In the pool stages, you could have a team with 7 days to their next game who would be fine with a 24 hour delay but the other team might have a 4 day turnaround.



Japan was awarded the world cup in 2009. The host cities and stadiums were announced in 2015. Japan has the most sophisticated transport system in the world. It has the most advanced tectonic and meteorological modelling systems in the world. There should have been a plan. Moving the games and changing the dates would not be an organisational issue.

As regards the turnaround from a pool game to a quarter-final. I would suggest that you will not find a single person anywhere in world rugby from the most fair-weather supporter to the longest serving national union president who would prefer to see their team go home after the pool stages over playing a World Cup quarter-final match with the tightest turnaround imaginable. Not one, no where, not in this sport, not in any sport, not on this planet.
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 22346
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: RWC 2019

Postby kermischocolate » October 10th, 2019, 1:12 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can anyone explain to me why the rule about not changing the day exists? I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that. I can't say I ever thought about it but I'd have assumed that there was a rule saying that a game could be played within 24 hours or something like that.

Having the rule so black and white leaves games open to being called off for loads of reasons, not just weather.


Tournament rules allow a 48hr window for knock out games, none for group games.

There's technically scope to change the venue for this weekends games (I'd imagine the logistics involved would prohibit it) but not change the date of the games.

It's an utter shambles.
User avatar
kermischocolate
Mullet
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 2:56 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: RWC 2019

Postby thepunter » October 10th, 2019, 1:48 pm

If you think this is bad (England and New Zealand and the hosts having a few miles shaved off their marathons, and everyone else having to run the full 26.2 miles), wait until England get Garces for their quarter against Australia.

Then all doubt will be removed, and the blind shall finally see :D .
thepunter
Bookworm
 
Posts: 237
Joined: April 19th, 2012, 1:07 am

Re: RWC 2019

Postby The Doc » October 10th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
The Doc wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Can anyone explain to me why the rule about not changing the day exists? I have a feeling that Pro14 and Champions Cup games have been played a day later than planned but maybe I've invented that. I can't say I ever thought about it but I'd have assumed that there was a rule saying that a game could be played within 24 hours or something like that.

Having the rule so black and white leaves games open to being called off for loads of reasons, not just weather.


Difference I imagine is the tight turnaround times in a World Cup - especially where different teams have different turnaround times. In the Champions Cup, all games are played weekend to weekend. In the pool stages, you could have a team with 7 days to their next game who would be fine with a 24 hour delay but the other team might have a 4 day turnaround.



Japan was awarded the world cup in 2009. The host cities and stadiums were announced in 2015. Japan has the most sophisticated transport system in the world. It has the most advanced tectonic and meteorological modelling systems in the world. There should have been a plan. Moving the games and changing the dates would not be an organisational issue.

As regards the turnaround from a pool game to a quarter-final. I would suggest that you will not find a single person anywhere in world rugby from the most fair-weather supporter to the longest serving national union president who would prefer to see their team go home after the pool stages over playing a World Cup quarter-final match with the tightest turnaround imaginable. Not one, no where, not in this sport, not in any sport, not on this planet.


Dave - I disagree on a lot of what you say. But let's start with where we agree. This is not good for the tournament and they probably should have had more detailed plans they have.

Sophisticated travel and weather prediction isn't much use 2-3 days before an event. Moving venues (other than fairly close moves) are not 24 / 48 hour efforts. Look at what England are doing just to move a couple of hundred miles to another hotel to get out of the way - a string of articulated lorries for the equipment alone. That's before the broader team - and then add in thousands of people who are needed for game day - either transported or activated in the new stadium. And pacific typhons are a lot less predictable (despite the sophistication) than Atlantic hurricanes - so only a few days notice to move (up to a day ago it wasn't predicted to hit Tokyo - and even now the models have it all over the place - there is no high probability impact point). The sophisticated transport system is being shut down.

I agree that in this case, Scotland would agree to a game with a tight turnaround before a QF. But the rules aren't written for Scotland. They are written to avoid a team in the middle of the group being forced to fulfil a game with 2 or 3 day turnaround before a big game. So they were written to avoid delays to groups games but allow them for the knockouts. You can argue the rules should have been written more flexibly but they weren't. And they were transparent and everyone signed up and nobody objected. In fact... let me quote Gregor Townsend from a few days ago (when the "sophisticated Japanese weather prediction system" was saying something different) - "The rules are the rules. The Ireland game cannot be postponed. It has to be played that day. If it cannot be played that day then it's two points for each team". So Scotland like everyone else knew the rules and signed up to them....

.... even if we both agree the rules could be written better.

Once Japan was selected as a venue, there was a risk of disruption. Not unlike picking Doha for major events, this has involved a gamble. I understand why they took the gamble - but everyone voted on it and I don't think it was really a close vote (correct me if I'm wrong). If they took any other action other than follow the published rules, they will leave themselves open to legal action. I don't think there is a lot they can do
I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role.
I've got nothing against your right leg.
The trouble is ... neither have you
The Doc
Mullet
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: August 11th, 2006, 2:59 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: RWC 2019

Postby FLIP » October 10th, 2019, 2:27 pm

The masses of equipment are not required for the playing of the game, merely the preparation and training before hand.

God forbid how do Leinster handle going down in the coach to Munster, or your local side driving to a game just in their cars.
Anyone But New Zealand
FLIP
Mullet
 
Posts: 1858
Joined: May 22nd, 2009, 1:00 am

Re: RWC 2019

Postby thepunter » October 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm

The Doc wrote:
Dave - I disagree on a lot of what you say. But let's start with where we agree. This is not good for the tournament and they probably should have had more detailed plans they have.

Sophisticated travel and weather prediction isn't much use 2-3 days before an event. Moving venues (other than fairly close moves) are not 24 / 48 hour efforts. Look at what England are doing just to move a couple of hundred miles to another hotel to get out of the way - a string of articulated lorries for the equipment alone. That's before the broader team - and then add in thousands of people who are needed for game day - either transported or activated in the new stadium. And pacific typhons are a lot less predictable (despite the sophistication) than Atlantic hurricanes - so only a few days notice to move (up to a day ago it wasn't predicted to hit Tokyo - and even now the models have it all over the place - there is no high probability impact point). The sophisticated transport system is being shut down.

I agree that in this case, Scotland would agree to a game with a tight turnaround before a QF. But the rules aren't written for Scotland. They are written to avoid a team in the middle of the group being forced to fulfil a game with 2 or 3 day turnaround before a big game. So they were written to avoid delays to groups games but allow them for the knockouts. You can argue the rules should have been written more flexibly but they weren't. And they were transparent and everyone signed up and nobody objected. In fact... let me quote Gregor Townsend from a few days ago (when the "sophisticated Japanese weather prediction system" was saying something different) - "The rules are the rules. The Ireland game cannot be postponed. It has to be played that day. If it cannot be played that day then it's two points for each team". So Scotland like everyone else knew the rules and signed up to them....

.... even if we both agree the rules could be written better.

Once Japan was selected as a venue, there was a risk of disruption. Not unlike picking Doha for major events, this has involved a gamble. I understand why they took the gamble - but everyone voted on it and I don't think it was really a close vote (correct me if I'm wrong). If they took any other action other than follow the published rules, they will leave themselves open to legal action. I don't think there is a lot they can do


Doc, I respectfully disagree with you there. This game does not require thousands of people to be put on. None of them do.

Let's assume for a moment that you're right though.

They knew about this storm on Sunday/Monday and the potential impacts. They had ample to time to line up an alternate - "flash message to all teams, due to impending storms, games may be moved to ensure they are played - please be ready for further updates."

Then organise venues, confirm them today or tomorrow when storm is confirmed, give as many people as much notice as possible to attend, refund those who don't make it.

What would this achieve? Save them money, and keep the integrity of the sport. People who spent a fortune and got loans out to go support their country (if they aint rich). They've burned ALOT of people here for the future.

This is an apalling vista, from every angle. And if NZ or England needed bps to get through, alternate arrangements would have been made you can be sure.

Lastly, I take you back to Oita being mooted as the venue alternate change, then retracted due to 'logistical reasons'. Oita is as far away as it gets from Fukuoka, the other end of Japan. It was a fait accompli to be able to cite logistical reasons, kite flying when they knew the storm would bring it down. It was a stroke.

I think you're being far too generous doc making excuses for them.

Finally someone is calling it as it is https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... hurts.html
thepunter
Bookworm
 
Posts: 237
Joined: April 19th, 2012, 1:07 am

Re: RWC 2019

Postby Dave Cahill » October 10th, 2019, 3:09 pm

The Doc wrote:Dave - I disagree on a lot of what you say. But let's start with where we agree. This is not good for the tournament and they probably should have had more detailed plans they have.

Sophisticated travel and weather prediction isn't much use 2-3 days before an event. Moving venues (other than fairly close moves) are not 24 / 48 hour efforts. Look at what England are doing just to move a couple of hundred miles to another hotel to get out of the way - a string of articulated lorries for the equipment alone. That's before the broader team - and then add in thousands of people who are needed for game day - either transported or activated in the new stadium. And pacific typhons are a lot less predictable (despite the sophistication) than Atlantic hurricanes - so only a few days notice to move (up to a day ago it wasn't predicted to hit Tokyo - and even now the models have it all over the place - there is no high probability impact point). The sophisticated transport system is being shut down.

I agree that in this case, Scotland would agree to a game with a tight turnaround before a QF. But the rules aren't written for Scotland. They are written to avoid a team in the middle of the group being forced to fulfil a game with 2 or 3 day turnaround before a big game. So they were written to avoid delays to groups games but allow them for the knockouts. You can argue the rules should have been written more flexibly but they weren't. And they were transparent and everyone signed up and nobody objected. In fact... let me quote Gregor Townsend from a few days ago (when the "sophisticated Japanese weather prediction system" was saying something different) - "The rules are the rules. The Ireland game cannot be postponed. It has to be played that day. If it cannot be played that day then it's two points for each team". So Scotland like everyone else knew the rules and signed up to them....

.... even if we both agree the rules could be written better.

Once Japan was selected as a venue, there was a risk of disruption. Not unlike picking Doha for major events, this has involved a gamble. I understand why they took the gamble - but everyone voted on it and I don't think it was really a close vote (correct me if I'm wrong). If they took any other action other than follow the published rules, they will leave themselves open to legal action. I don't think there is a lot they can do


I think we're actually broadly agreeing with each other

The stuff in the trucks though, thats not really what we're talking about. Thats stuff for a two month stay, not one game. For one game they could probably manage without a completely outfitted kitchen and dining area, a fully serviced mobile suite of offices, a video production unit or an entire gym for example! What we're talking about is proactive contingencies for one game (or round of games across the tournament) for a tournament in a country that has extreme weather if they have extreme weather. Its not a wild thing to hope to be in place after having a whole decade to plan for the thing.

I'm not saying that we should change things now, as you point out everyone signed up to the participation agreement and knew where they stood from the get-go. I'm saying that we should never have been in this position in the first place. That a tournament in a country with as developed a transport system as Japan's combined with Japan's experience with its own weather this time of year along with their virtual invention of Just In Time systems across a range of industries and practices should have meant that moving a fixture (or fixtures) should the hardly-unlikely happen should have been built into the tournament rules.

The vote was 16-0 on a joint decision to award the 2015 RWC to England and the 2019 RWC to Japan.
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 22346
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: RWC 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 10th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Yeah I cant get on board with the issue around logistics with team equipment etc, not being funny but what equipment will Edinburgh be bringing with them for tomorrow's game? I'm not saying there aren't issues with moving the game, but with so much notice they should have been able to overcome them.

I'm curious about the process of signing up for the tournament and if there were opportunities to discuss the rules. Heads should roll over this anyway, it's a shambles.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 12992
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

PreviousNext

Return to International Rugby

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests