Ireland 2020 and beyond

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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby backrower8 » October 20th, 2019, 6:35 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I can't say I'm too excited about Andy Farrell taking over, his defensive system has been found out this year and we didn't seem to be able to adapt. In general the team looks stale and I think we need big changes, but personally I want to forget about building to the next World Cup to any great extent. I think you can prepare for the long term future in a pretty natural way over the four years and take the opportunity to rotate players or try players in different positions when the opportunity presents itself rather than because you need to stick to a plan for France in 2023 e.g. playing Murray and Sexton for so long in Cardiff in order to get them ready for a World Cup 7 months later didn't need to happen and should never happen again, or if you think Joey can make a difference at fullback then play him there instead of being welded to the idea of him being the backup ten for the World Cup.

I think there's quite a few players who are looking old right now and a lot of them should be in danger for the 6N. Best is obviously gone and we need a new hooker and captain. I'd start Scannell at hooker and have Ryan as the new skipper. I'd like to see someone like Kelleher get the last hooker spot even if he's not playing for Leinster and there's no intention of playing him in the 6N.

Healy isn't going to last forever and Kilcoyne has a real chance of overtaking him soon. I would move Porter back to loosehead during the summer and try and develop him as Healy's long term replacement. He's done really well at tighthead but I think our need is greater there and having himself and Furlong in the same team could be a game changer.

Second row is a big issue, I think we're a year or two away from having depth there.

We need more power and subtlety in the back row. Deegan and Doris are obvious candidates but they're both a fair bit off being top class international players. I think our need is great enough that we slot the likes of them in quite early though, even if it's a bench spot here or there.

There's far more scope to change in the backs. We'll have James Lowe in 12 months time. Larmour was probably good enough in Japan that he could be our fullback, but I like the idea of Stockdale moving there when Lowe arrives.

I think Johnny should bench from now on. Not sure how many seasons he has left but he's just not quick enough or durable enough to be our starting ten IMO. Ten is becoming an issue for me, I don't see anyone being anywhere near as good as Johnny now, but maybe we were too reliant on him anyway? It might be a good thing to use the rest of the side more.


+1 :happy clapper:

I think it may be better to cut Johnny altogether, I can only see him being a disruptive force if still in the squad. I was surprised when he got his 2 year central-contract, now I think that is a problem.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Peg Leg » October 20th, 2019, 9:20 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Watching this morning's game made me think again about the idea of putting so much focus on the World Cup. France have been a mess for the guts of 15 years now, but made a final in 2011 when they pretty much ditched their coach and let the players take over, and they're apparently in complete disarray again but managed to play some amazing rugby today and would have got through if it wasn't for a stupid red card and a couple of awful decisions. On the flip side of that, Wales have been the definition of solid (just in terms of the national side) for years now but on the eve of the tournament they lost their long serving attack coach and ended up in a semi final after those mental decisions from the French.

Basically, sh!t happens and you just have to roll with it. If you get fixated on a perfect preparation and things go belly up then the extra pressure you've put on yourself will become unbearable. You could write a thesis on how we treated Joey over the last couple of years, not just about the reluctance to move him to 15 that I mentioned above, but even moving him to Munster. Things were ticking along nicely for everyone but then he moved south and it didn't really do a whole lot for him because of his injuries and the fact that Munster just weren't as good as Leinster anyway.
Great post Ltear, couldn't agree more. Focus on skills and game intelligence and rotate based on that. No matter the competition focus on your skillset and pick the best players.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Twist » October 21st, 2019, 10:01 am

I went back to look at the equivalent threads from 2015. It's a bit depressing how similar some of the comments are.

This one from Dropkick was written on Oct 19th 2015. You could nearly have written the same thing on Oct 19th 2019, in fact it's probably a better summation of the game against Japan just gone than of the Argentina match he's referring to. And look who gets a mention at the end! The same points came back to haunt us against NZ, which isn't a huge surprise

There needs to be a big change of attitude in Irish rugby. The main problem has been designing our playing style around England and France. In other words bulking up to match them. Size over skill.

Yesterday a smaller Argentina ran rings around the Irish players. Theyve designed their game around the tri nations style, especially NZ which means playing at a high tempo.

The bulked up Irish players were slower in every way. Argentina flooded into areas around the pitch which blew the bigger but less numerous Irish players away. Their ball carriers always had plenty of options, which stretched the Ireland defence to breaking point. Ireland's passive defence made it extra easy.

Interesting to read that not only Graham Henry but super rugby winning coaches like Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph have been brought to Argentina to coach their coaches. Something the IRFU should look into.


Here's another vision of the future from Hugonaut

We could and should be less reliant on getting to ground in contact in order to recycle. Rucking has been good for us, but we're too reliant on it at the moment at the expense of handling in contact. We're always going to be a ruck-first country, because we play a winter season, but we can combine it with better [and more adventurous] handling in contact when we're breaking quickly.

Aside from those two areas, we're in good shape. We've got a strong scrum, a strong lineout, a decent mauling game, a very good rucking game, a very strong contestable kicking game and, with Sexton and Murray in tandem, an extremely good tactical kicking game.


Believe me, I could pick these out all day. But we're still left with the fact that we play a winter game, and "the Six Nations is the engine of Irish rugby " (Simon O'Keeffe, 2015) so I don't see the scope for a coach to make a complete switch to a Japan-style game. Scotland have tried that. We need to go some way down that road though, because our game is simply too attritional.

I think you need to look at Joe's Leinster and Pat Lam's Connacht. Their basic skills were superb. Lam achieved this in part by making players bring balls everywhere with them. It sounds ridiculous but it worked. Joe made Leinster the best passing team in Europe. We need an edict that all our teams will make that their goal. We can't sacrifice success at 6N and HC level just for a four-yearly tournament. But we can improve our handling with a view to not needing 30 phases and 6 broken bones for every try we get. Lets get better at scoring off transition, lets see if we can score from our own half. Lets keep the ball alive and try to reduce our ruck numbers. I think passing the bloody ball is the best way to do that.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Twist » October 21st, 2019, 10:26 am

As to players, I think we need to prioritise getting creative players on the field. We go through our outhalf too much.

To that end, I'd like to see more of Will Addison. He was very unlucky with injury, but if he can get a break from that then I think he's a great option at fullback, with Joey at 10. That gets two viable first receivers on the field and immediately makes us much less predictable. He's defensively solid too. Larmour is in better form than Stockdale, so if that were to continue I'd have him on the wing in his place. Chris Farrell has far better hands than he is given credit for. Hands are exactly the thing that let Robbie down in his two WC appearances, so if we had a game next week I'd be looking to Farrell to replace him. God knows who'll be fit and in form in February, of course. A bit further down the food chain, surely Michael Lowry is worth bringing in to camp? Yes he's small, but so is Cheslin Kolbe and he survives just fine. Even just training against him would help! I'm not writing off anyone here. I'm sure Aki, Henshaw, Stockdale etc are going to win a load more Irish caps and I'm totally fine with that. I'm just saying we need to readdress the balance between footballing skill and power. At half back I expect Craig Casey's development to be accelerated.

Up front, Kilcoyne surely deserves a few starts now. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rhys Marshall in camp and I'm hoping that the Ulster captaincy encourages a bit more consistency from Henderson. In the back row I thought Stander and Conan looked very good playing beside each other. That shouldn't be a surprise, because Stander only moved to 8 when Heaslip got injured. He's a better 6, and Conan is a specialist 8. They can both carry, and Conan is especially good at getting off-loads away. You lost O'Mahony's lineout work if he's not on the field, but his form has been patchy. I think he can do a job as a 7 but doesn't have JVDF pace in defence which is a real asset. It's a difficult balance to get right and I don't have a strong opinion on it except to say that I really hope Dan Leavy comes back as good as ever.

Given that this is a Leinster forum I don't need to extol the virtues of all the promising young Leinster forwards like Kelleher and Baird but I can't see anyone that young getting capped this side of the 2021 AIs. Scott Penney has a huge future but 7s seem to get so many injuries that I'd be very hesitant to expose him to the very highest level while he's still developing. Look how many times JVDF and Leavy have been all f%~ked up. Looking forward to seeing him at HC level though.

I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on Deegan and Doris? I think Doris looks a little light just now.

Edit: I forgot to mention Kenyon Knox. He's another who's very, very young but I think he'll make an appearance for Munster in the HC this season. He could be a phenomenal scrummager in time.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Dave Cahill » October 21st, 2019, 10:51 am

Joe might have made Leinster the best passing team in Europe, but Joe also made Ireland the least passing side in the Six Nations and won two championships doing so!
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby OTT » October 21st, 2019, 11:15 am

Moving on from the Joe Schmidt era a bit of a ramble, sorry...

If we win a Grandslam or even just a 6 nations or two, win about 75% of our test matches and ultimately fall in the quarter final of rugby world cup 2023 I personally would prefer that then doing what Japan did and play scintillating rugby at the world cup by sacrificing most of their matches over a four year period to get things right and sacrificing their club game eg the Sunwolves being sh!t (losing 14 of 16 games in 2019 super rugby season) and ultimately getting spanked in a RWC Quarter final (sound familiar) so not actually getting further then we did.

Obviously it is a very personal thing to each person but I will take Leinster success and continued Irish success every time rather then an aspirational target of getting to a RWC semi final once every 4 years. The 200 provincial/international matches of rugby I will watch in the meantime for the teams I support are worth more then the sacrifice to win one specific match every 4 years. Apparently we should be aspiring to play like Japan if we went out to the Springboks like they did playing the way they did ie getting hammered while throwing it about we would all be spinning about how we can only beat those teams if we target areas where we have advantages. I certainly don't want to follow a model where we sacrifice everything for one match.

It is absolutely subjective but for me success is winning things or being at the business end of competitions which is what Ireland and Leinster have been doing which is worth more then maybe/maybe not getting to a world cup semifinal, the teams mean to much to me to be willing to sacrifice everything for potentially nothing.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 11:21 am

Style, skills and all that aside.
Many players who actually have the required skills were taken to the RWC.
That wasn't the problem, the problem was that quite a number of those players were either not fit enough to play or in decline or both.
It's been an Ireland problem going back to amatuer times.
The off quoted quote "It's harder to be dropped from the Irish team than to get selected" still rings true.
It's surprising that Joe fell into the same trap.
So a very simple and core question.
Why did it happen again.
And to not address Dave Cahill's question.
Why did the same coach move from a Leinster style approach to a kind of halfway house.
The person to answer those questions is Joe, not in public obviously.
That doesn't stop the rest of us speculating.
For example do central contracts tie the coaches hands too much?
Is it true to say that they are also a necessary evil.
Does the CC system need to be reviewed.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 11:31 am

OTT wrote:Moving on from the Joe Schmidt era a bit of a ramble, sorry...

If we win a Grandslam or even just a 6 nations or two, win about 75% of our test matches and ultimately fall in the quarter final of rugby world cup 2023 I personally would prefer that then doing what Japan did and play scintillating rugby at the world cup by sacrificing most of their matches over a four year period to get things right and sacrificing their club game eg the Sunwolves being sh!t (losing 14 of 16 games in 2019 super rugby season) and ultimately getting spanked in a RWC Quarter final (sound familiar) so not actually getting further then we did.

Obviously it is a very personal thing to each person but I will take Leinster success and continued Irish success every time rather then an aspirational target of getting to a RWC semi final once every 4 years. The 200 provincial/international matches of rugby I will watch in the meantime for the teams I support are worth more then the sacrifice to win one specific match every 4 years. Apparently we should be aspiring to play like Japan if we went out to the Springboks like they did playing the way they did ie getting hammered while throwing it about we would all be spinning about how we can only beat those teams if we target areas where we have advantages. I certainly don't want to follow a model where we sacrifice everything for one match.

It is absolutely subjective but for me success is winning things or being at the business end of competitions which is what Ireland and Leinster have been doing which is worth more then maybe/maybe not getting to a world cup semifinal, the teams mean to much to me to be willing to sacrifice everything for potentially nothing.

Personally prefer to be able to enjoy my rugby on a yearly basis and have a downer every four years to be quickly followed by watching successful Leinster rugby (Thanks again Joe btw).
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 21st, 2019, 11:58 am

OTT wrote:Moving on from the Joe Schmidt era a bit of a ramble, sorry...

If we win a Grandslam or even just a 6 nations or two, win about 75% of our test matches and ultimately fall in the quarter final of rugby world cup 2023 I personally would prefer that then doing what Japan did and play scintillating rugby at the world cup by sacrificing most of their matches over a four year period to get things right and sacrificing their club game eg the Sunwolves being sh!t (losing 14 of 16 games in 2019 super rugby season) and ultimately getting spanked in a RWC Quarter final (sound familiar) so not actually getting further then we did.

Obviously it is a very personal thing to each person but I will take Leinster success and continued Irish success every time rather then an aspirational target of getting to a RWC semi final once every 4 years. The 200 provincial/international matches of rugby I will watch in the meantime for the teams I support are worth more then the sacrifice to win one specific match every 4 years. Apparently we should be aspiring to play like Japan if we went out to the Springboks like they did playing the way they did ie getting hammered while throwing it about we would all be spinning about how we can only beat those teams if we target areas where we have advantages. I certainly don't want to follow a model where we sacrifice everything for one match.

It is absolutely subjective but for me success is winning things or being at the business end of competitions which is what Ireland and Leinster have been doing which is worth more then maybe/maybe not getting to a world cup semifinal, the teams mean to much to me to be willing to sacrifice everything for potentially nothing.


+1 and I don't even really know how you go about focusing entirely on the WC even if we wanted to.

I'd love to know how Japan did it though, this idea of getting their squad into camp and unleashing them for the tournament doesn't really fit with what most people think works and yet they were were so fit and sharp against ourselves and Scotland.

Michael Swift made an interesting point on OTB about how Pat Lam had Connacht practising a new way of playing for 6/7 months but would play matches in a different way until they were ready to rock with their new style.

For all the talk of new players and new styles etc (and I agree with a lot of it) the thing that surprised me most was our inability to do the basics and fix really simple things. I really can't understand how Joe didn't see that that writing was on the wall for certain players or how he couldn't fix things like us taking the ball standing still or not being able to realign quickly in attack. There are pretty simple tactical tweaks like moving the ball in the 22, having a second playmaker, and giving more freedom on the counter attack, but it will all be meaningless if we don't fix those really basic issues. Hopefully Farrell and Catt can freshen things up and get those areas motoring again and then confidence will flow from that and there'll be few handling errors etc.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Logorrhea » October 21st, 2019, 1:08 pm

The error count was horrible, the intensity levels were low and the discipline was shite .................. yet it all seems to be Joe's responsibility to resolve it. Sure with hindsight he could have adjusted a few selections but they wouldn't have made much difference.

The much fabled depth we have was whittled away quite quickly with the loss of a few players. For all our talk, our selection wasn't that questionable and most agreed it made sense. The reality is that a lot of our players simply aren't good enough to play a team like the AB's (when they play well). Not much Joe and Farrell can do about the error count on the day. No plan would have worked when the guys cant catch, kick and pass.
The "Core Leadership" group of players were actually just another bunch of players with lots of caps, also struggling for form. They don't and didn't have magic powers of motivation. Some of them were playing quite badly, but there were no real backup options.
Our "World Class Players" are only world class when playing to that standard. Quite a few of them haven't been able to reach those heights for over a year. When do we, and the media, stop calling them world class. We need to stop referencing past Lions tours, Grand Slams and a good performance 12 months ago.

I think a major factor is the fans and media drive to build the squad up to standards they cannot realistically maintain. We need to calm it down. Provincial success against shite premiership teams does not mean we can compete with a New Zealand team playing like that.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 21st, 2019, 1:24 pm

Logorrhea wrote:The error count was horrible, the intensity levels were low and the discipline was shite .................. yet it all seems to be Joe's responsibility to resolve it. Sure with hindsight he could have adjusted a few selections but they wouldn't have made much difference.



Yeah I agree with you, I think he made errors in selection but when you go through it you could argue either way for many of the 15 players that took the field and there are only two changes that I'd definitely have made.

But my criticism of Joe stems from sleepwalking into that flat performance. It's like we pressed pause last November and said "right, we'll try and get those guys through to Japan and then we'll go again". He didn't react to what we saw in the 6N and actually it's not like we beat NZ by 30 points last year. As good as we were we needed to add more to our game and evolve.

Even aside from the style of play, if I was him I'd have been looking at the team 11 months ago and putting a big X beside every player who might decline by now because of their age and decide how to counter it. The two main ones were Best and Sexton, and Best had the added importance of being captain. The more I think of it the more I think that Sexton's lack of pace has big in a big factor in teams being able to swallow us up. I'm sure Joe expected Murray to be at his best once he recovered from injury but that didn't happen and so neither of our halfbacks were any kind of threat and we saw the knock on effect of that further out. We saw both of those issues in the 6N and nothing seemed to be done about it.

Maybe that lack of threat had a mental effect too where we felt we needed to try cheeky crossfield kicks (I know Carty did the one in Japan but the point stands) when we could have gone for the posts, or try to get too much out of kicks to touch and then miss them because we knew we couldn't create anything further out.

So as this thread is about we move forward, I want less reliance on certain players and a willingness to adapt.

Edit: Forgot to say that when I say that we didn't plan for the decline of Sexton, I don't mean that we drop him for Joey, I mean getting another playmaker on the field to play with him.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 3:15 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
OTT wrote:Moving on from the Joe Schmidt era a bit of a ramble, sorry...

If we win a Grandslam or even just a 6 nations or two, win about 75% of our test matches and ultimately fall in the quarter final of rugby world cup 2023 I personally would prefer that then doing what Japan did and play scintillating rugby at the world cup by sacrificing most of their matches over a four year period to get things right and sacrificing their club game eg the Sunwolves being sh!t (losing 14 of 16 games in 2019 super rugby season) and ultimately getting spanked in a RWC Quarter final (sound familiar) so not actually getting further then we did.

Obviously it is a very personal thing to each person but I will take Leinster success and continued Irish success every time rather then an aspirational target of getting to a RWC semi final once every 4 years. The 200 provincial/international matches of rugby I will watch in the meantime for the teams I support are worth more then the sacrifice to win one specific match every 4 years. Apparently we should be aspiring to play like Japan if we went out to the Springboks like they did playing the way they did ie getting hammered while throwing it about we would all be spinning about how we can only beat those teams if we target areas where we have advantages. I certainly don't want to follow a model where we sacrifice everything for one match.

It is absolutely subjective but for me success is winning things or being at the business end of competitions which is what Ireland and Leinster have been doing which is worth more then maybe/maybe not getting to a world cup semifinal, the teams mean to much to me to be willing to sacrifice everything for potentially nothing.


+1 and I don't even really know how you go about focusing entirely on the WC even if we wanted to.

I'd love to know how Japan did it though, this idea of getting their squad into camp and unleashing them for the tournament doesn't really fit with what most people think works and yet they were were so fit and sharp against ourselves and Scotland.

Michael Swift made an interesting point on OTB about how Pat Lam had Connacht practising a new way of playing for 6/7 months but would play matches in a different way until they were ready to rock with their new style.

For all the talk of new players and new styles etc (and I agree with a lot of it) the thing that surprised me most was our inability to do the basics and fix really simple things. I really can't understand how Joe didn't see that that writing was on the wall for certain players or how he couldn't fix things like us taking the ball standing still or not being able to realign quickly in attack. There are pretty simple tactical tweaks like moving the ball in the 22, having a second playmaker, and giving more freedom on the counter attack, but it will all be meaningless if we don't fix those really basic issues. Hopefully Farrell and Catt can freshen things up and get those areas motoring again and then confidence will flow from that and there'll be few handling errors etc.

Strategic thinking is required regarding seeding.
We don't want to end up in the same group as the home nation, France, again.
I would have dropped Sexton from the squad BTW, along with POM, Murray and Best (He was the least of our problems). Said so before the squad was selected too.
That's not an I told you so btw, I think it was obvious we could be facing a problem, I'm just more hard hearted.
We also took too many injured players.
Carberry and Henshaw probably shouldn't have gone with a definite ? over RK.
So effectively we gambled on the "fitness for purpose" of almost a quarter the squad.
That's way too high.
Some of it was bad luck.
Henshaw, Carberry and losing Conan for example.
Joe gambled too much and judging by his post match comments we fielded a team with players who had ?? over them.
The biggest problem with doing that is that the other players in the 23 all know the score.
How that impacts on other players performances I couldn't tell but I'd be pretty sure, not in a good way.
It's likely we wouldn't have beaten any of the other QFlists never mind NZ.
Japan would have been our best bet and funnily enough SA who'll probably get to the final now because Wales look like they're carrying injuries too.
Last edited by Oldschool on October 21st, 2019, 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 21st, 2019, 3:21 pm

Hindsight is not always the perfect focus for future strategy.

I can remember days like last Saturday when my heroes of the moment (insert Celtic, Man U, Dubs, Kilkenny, Chicago Bears, 49ers, Ireland etc) lost in finals or vital games, without firing a shot and thus broke my heart. I accepted full responsibility for placing so much of my confidence in them and not seeing the flaws which were so cruelly exposed by their opponents. Occasionally, I wondered then as I do now, why couldn't the Manager / Coach see or feel it coming?

The experience of the intervening decades has convinced me that a Team can want success, in a particular game or Competition, too much and they put their lives on hold as they await the moment. However, because they have been "on hold" for so long, when the moment comes they've 'forgotten' how to fire the shots.

Saturday was undoubtedly a shock, possibly even an embarrasment, to the vast majority of the Irish Squad. Many of them had acknowledged before RWC 2019 that they had focussed themselves almost totally at this target since the Grand Slam game in Twickenham. Certainly, the games against NZ in November and the Test Series in Oz were marked out, but largely as distance markers along the path to RWC 2019. Not to have made a contest of this Q/F was unthinkable, to have made a litany of errors was unconscionable. Nothing under Joe Schmidt, or any other of their Coaches in this professional era, will have prepared them for analysis and understanding of how that performance occurred.

Not to have fired a shot in the Q/F against NZ might have been acceptable in the past. However, I don't believe that any of this Squad of players will consider it so. Regardless of how well the analysts tell them NZ played, this current Irish Squad, and a wide swathe of their contemporaries playing across all four Provinces, will not accept that an Irish team in 2019, could not do better.

As to the future, because so many players made fundamental playing errors on the day, it's not logical to abandon all who made mistakes from future selection. However, it is important that a detailed analysis is undertaken as to whether the tactical approach which Ireland has developed at present is the most suitable style to win the competitions in which we take part.

It was evident from the game against Japan, tbat our style of play can be countered by detailed analysis and application of specific measures - notably at collisions and other breakdowns. Possibly, England and Wales had reached the same conclusion during the 2019 6 Nations. If so, I for one was too confident in our 2018 form to accept the writing on the wall.

However, having closely watched the manner in which SA absorbed the pace and ferocity of the Japanese tackles and entries into breakdowns in the first half yesterday and then focussed on their own maul and individual bulk to exert huge physical pressure on the Japanese pack during the third quarter of the game, I am now open to the prospect that we will never have players who can overcome the top opponents in a collision-based game plan and thus we must find an alternative.

Is that a cop-out? The NZ team were not much bigger than Ireland. Maybe not, but they won pretty much every collision, with or without the ball for the first 60 minutes of that contest. England have done that to us twice in 2019 and I and others were prepared to rationalise away that fact.

Is it possible to find an alternative playing strategy? Anything is possible, if there is a will to achieve it.

What do we need, beyond the desire? That's where good quality objective analysis is necessary. I anticipate seeing plenty of that in the coming weeks.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby wixfjord » October 21st, 2019, 4:21 pm

Oldschool wrote:
I would have dropped Sexton from the squad BTW, along with POM, Murray and Best (He was the least of our problems). Said so before the squad was selected too.
That's not an I told you so btw, I think it was obvious we could be facing a problem, I'm just more hard hearted.
We also took too many injured players.
Carberry and Henshaw probably shouldn't have gone with a definite ? over RK.
So effectively we gambled on the "fitness for purpose" of almost a quarter the squad.


So with no Murray, Sexton, Carbery or Henshaw in the squad and Aki not available what would your 9/10/12 against NZ have been the Oldschool?

Maybe Marmion/Carty/Farrell? Or maybe Carbery/Byrne/Farrell?
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 5:36 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
I would have dropped Sexton from the squad BTW, along with POM, Murray and Best (He was the least of our problems). Said so before the squad was selected too.
That's not an I told you so btw, I think it was obvious we could be facing a problem, I'm just more hard hearted.
We also took too many injured players.
Carberry and Henshaw probably shouldn't have gone with a definite ? over RK.
So effectively we gambled on the "fitness for purpose" of almost a quarter the squad.


So with no Murray, Sexton, Carbery or Henshaw in the squad and Aki not available what would your 9/10/12 against NZ have been the Oldschool?

Maybe Marmion/Carty/Farrell? Or maybe Carbery/Byrne/Farrell?

Before the squad was selected even I suggested.
Marmion, Cooney, Carty, Byrne and Carberry (my one gamble). Murray had improved and wasn't confident on the SH one.
Marmion and Cooney are the best passers.
Cooney would have been my first choice.
I had zero confidentenc that Sexton was going to be anywhere near fit enough.
So all the guys I've mentioned would have been playing in the warmups instead of been sent home.
RTB mentions hindsight and up to a point I'd be in favour of moving on.
However we can learn from history.
It's started already (the shyte, I mean)
Read Holland's bit on the RTE web site, eulogizing POM .
There's a lot of history behind that one article.
Andy Farrell had better watch out.
A thought.
Joe was disappointed after the QF result obviously but a couple of times I got the strong impression he was relieved it was all over.
Echoes of what was said about the players after 2015.
To take LRIP/RTB maybe Ireland et Al (IRFU, Coaches, Players and Fans) wanted it too much. Fatigueing.
Talking about Joe.
I admire his humanity and his humility.
He's a giant among coaches and he has walked among titans in terms of some of the Irish players he has coached.
It's doubtful there is anyone in Ireland who is not of the same opinion.
We can pick and drop players on a whim, we don't have to look them in eye when we do it.
My comments further up are simply a partial analysis of how we got to where we.
Joe for example was caught between a rock and a hard place, for example, when he selected Best as his captain.
His options weren't great and even if look at the options and exclude the future captain, there is no player jumping out.
He could have picked Jamie but the Munster cabal were against and Joe had to play politics.
Andy Farrell will face the same kind of nonsense.
Maybe Nucifora can run interference.
Andy should remember George Bernard Shaw's very accurate description of the Irish.
"The Irish are a very fair race, they never speak well of each other"
A history lesson.
Henry 111V - Divide and Conquer. In Ireland he was knocking on an open door.
Four proud provinces together NOT.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby wixfjord » October 21st, 2019, 6:22 pm

Right but who would’ve been your 9/10/12 face up to Smith/Moounga/ALB though considering what you said above?
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 6:30 pm

wixfjord wrote:Right but who would’ve been your 9/10/12 face up to Smith/Moounga/ALB though considering what you said above?

Apologies.
12 would have been Farrell or Henshaw and the decision would have been based on which of them was the fitest
9. Cooney my first choice as indicated.
10. I would have gambled, the hint is in my earlier post.
BTW given how well NZ were prepared it's doubtful we would have won the game but that we wouldn't have been hosed as badly.
Hansen had given a hint that his pack were "ready" during the week.
POM wouldn't have been in my 23 either BTW.
Just for completeness, didn't think Sexton should have said anything about the laws being changed because of our game after Chicago, in the Aviva against NZ.
That was pointed in the ref's direction and I can just imagine the reaction in the NZ camp.
Loose talk and all that.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby wixfjord » October 21st, 2019, 6:58 pm

So Cooney at 9 and two guys who 'probably shouldn't have gone' at 10/12?

That's not a gamble but playing Murray, Sexton and Henshaw is?
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 7:49 pm

wixfjord wrote:So Cooney at 9 and two guys who 'probably shouldn't have gone' at 10/12?

That's not a gamble but playing Murray, Sexton and Henshaw is?

Well you're right of course.
However then two guys who probably shouldn't have gone are Murray and Sexton, couldn't have put it better myself even though I did try.
Now I'm not going to keep going around and around on this.
I said what I said before the squad was selected and nothing that has happened since has made me think I was wrong.
As Napoleon might say, maybe I'm just lucky.
But remember this is like fantasy rugby, our opinions or suggestions don't impact on the outcome.
BTW I think I was also of the opinion that Larmour shouldn't have been in the 31 squad either.
You win some and you lose some.
Joe once again showed that he can recognise talent but much more importantly he can coach them up to international level very quickly given enough continuous time.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby neiliog93 » October 21st, 2019, 8:02 pm

As regards the contrast in style between Schmidt's Leinster and Schmidt's Ireland, I remember him saying before that his day-to-day contact with Leinster afforded him the time to relentlessly upskill the basics of passing, offloading and support line-running to players. But with Ireland, he lamented that he didn't have the time to work thoroughly on skills and there was only time to prepare for particular matches ahead. Valid or not, that's what he has said on the matter.
"This is breathless stuff.....it's on again. Contepomi out to Hickie,D'Arcy,Hickie.......................HICKIE FOR THE CORNER! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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