Ireland 2020 and beyond

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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 8:12 pm

neiliog93 wrote:As regards the contrast in style between Schmidt's Leinster and Schmidt's Ireland, I remember him saying before that his day-to-day contact with Leinster afforded him the time to relentlessly upskill the basics of passing, offloading and support line-running to players. But with Ireland, he lamented that he didn't have the time to work thoroughly on skills and there was only time to prepare for particular matches ahead. Valid or not, that's what he has said on the matter.

I remember that and the only solution to that problem is for all the provinces to sign up to the same style of playing rugby and for the head coach to be able to direct requirements.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Twist » October 21st, 2019, 8:50 pm

Oldschool wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
OTT wrote:Moving on from the Joe Schmidt era a bit of a ramble, sorry...

If we win a Grandslam or even just a 6 nations or two, win about 75% of our test matches and ultimately fall in the quarter final of rugby world cup 2023 I personally would prefer that then doing what Japan did and play scintillating rugby at the world cup by sacrificing most of their matches over a four year period to get things right and sacrificing their club game eg the Sunwolves being sh!t (losing 14 of 16 games in 2019 super rugby season) and ultimately getting spanked in a RWC Quarter final (sound familiar) so not actually getting further then we did.

Obviously it is a very personal thing to each person but I will take Leinster success and continued Irish success every time rather then an aspirational target of getting to a RWC semi final once every 4 years. The 200 provincial/international matches of rugby I will watch in the meantime for the teams I support are worth more then the sacrifice to win one specific match every 4 years. Apparently we should be aspiring to play like Japan if we went out to the Springboks like they did playing the way they did ie getting hammered while throwing it about we would all be spinning about how we can only beat those teams if we target areas where we have advantages. I certainly don't want to follow a model where we sacrifice everything for one match.

It is absolutely subjective but for me success is winning things or being at the business end of competitions which is what Ireland and Leinster have been doing which is worth more then maybe/maybe not getting to a world cup semifinal, the teams mean to much to me to be willing to sacrifice everything for potentially nothing.


+1 and I don't even really know how you go about focusing entirely on the WC even if we wanted to.

I'd love to know how Japan did it though, this idea of getting their squad into camp and unleashing them for the tournament doesn't really fit with what most people think works and yet they were were so fit and sharp against ourselves and Scotland.

Michael Swift made an interesting point on OTB about how Pat Lam had Connacht practising a new way of playing for 6/7 months but would play matches in a different way until they were ready to rock with their new style.

For all the talk of new players and new styles etc (and I agree with a lot of it) the thing that surprised me most was our inability to do the basics and fix really simple things. I really can't understand how Joe didn't see that that writing was on the wall for certain players or how he couldn't fix things like us taking the ball standing still or not being able to realign quickly in attack. There are pretty simple tactical tweaks like moving the ball in the 22, having a second playmaker, and giving more freedom on the counter attack, but it will all be meaningless if we don't fix those really basic issues. Hopefully Farrell and Catt can freshen things up and get those areas motoring again and then confidence will flow from that and there'll be few handling errors etc.

Strategic thinking is required regarding seeding.
We don't want to end up in the same group as the home nation, France, again.
I would have dropped Sexton from the squad BTW, along with POM, Murray and Best (He was the least of our problems). Said so before the squad was selected too.
That's not an I told you so btw, I think it was obvious we could be facing a problem, I'm just more hard hearted.
We also took too many injured players.
Carberry and Henshaw probably shouldn't have gone with a definite ? over RK.
So effectively we gambled on the "fitness for purpose" of almost a quarter the squad.
That's way too high.
Some of it was bad luck.
Henshaw, Carberry and losing Conan for example.
Joe gambled too much and judging by his post match comments we fielded a team with players who had ?? over them.
The biggest problem with doing that is that the other players in the 23 all know the score.
How that impacts on other players performances I couldn't tell but I'd be pretty sure, not in a good way.
It's likely we wouldn't have beaten any of the other QFlists never mind NZ.
Japan would have been our best bet and funnily enough SA who'll probably get to the final now because Wales look like they're carrying injuries too.


I think we would've beaten France.

I don't say that as a complement to us.


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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby wixfjord » October 21st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Oldschool wrote:
wixfjord wrote:So Cooney at 9 and two guys who 'probably shouldn't have gone' at 10/12?

That's not a gamble but playing Murray, Sexton and Henshaw is?

Well you're right of course.
However then two guys who probably shouldn't have gone are Murray and Sexton, couldn't have put it better myself even though I did try.


Hold on, you just said Henshaw and Carbery 'probably shouldn't have gone' above:

Oldschool wrote:We also took too many injured players.
Carberry and Henshaw probably shouldn't have gone


Then you said you would've started both of them in the QF?

Which is it?!

Your team for beating the ABs would've been
Cooney, Carbery, Henshaw (the latter two you've said shouldn't have gone)

and presumably Marmion and Carty/Byrne on the bench?

That right?

Cos that's what we're left with if we've dropped Sexton and Murray as you advocated for.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 21st, 2019, 11:39 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
wixfjord wrote:So Cooney at 9 and two guys who 'probably shouldn't have gone' at 10/12?

That's not a gamble but playing Murray, Sexton and Henshaw is?

Well you're right of course.
However then two guys who probably shouldn't have gone are Murray and Sexton, couldn't have put it better myself even though I did try.


Hold on, you just said Henshaw and Carbery 'probably shouldn't have gone' above:

Oldschool wrote:We also took too many injured players.
Carberry and Henshaw probably shouldn't have gone


Then you said you would've started both of them in the QF?

Which is it?!

Your team for beating the ABs would've been
Cooney, Carbery, Henshaw (the latter two you've said shouldn't have gone)

and presumably Marmion and Carty/Byrne on the bench?

That right?

Cos that's what we're left with if we've dropped Sexton and Murray as you advocated for.

I'm going to regret replying to this.
You're reading my post as if it's a sworn statement under oath, picking over each syllable.
I said I would drop some players, that is definite and I named them.
The probably was a reference to their fitness and was it worth a gamble to bring them.
With four eliminated that gamble would have been justified.
The gambles were Carberry and Henshaw.
The reason for using the word probably was that it was unclear how bad their injuries were. Joe knew, I didn't, you didn't.
So as I said
9. Cooney (Marmion)
10. Carberry (Carty) The Byrne/Carty bench would have been a tough call because they have very different styles.
12. Henshaw or Farrell depending on who was fitter.

Now you can pick thru that all you like and point out inconsistencies if you want.
However it's not going to change anything. We'll never know what, if any, effect those changes would have had on the result.
I named the four players I would drop, that is very clear, anything else is open ended.
You could ask yourself this, with the benefit of hindsight what changes to the 31 would you have made?
Your own answer might be quite instructive.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby wixfjord » October 22nd, 2019, 9:41 am

Oldschool wrote:
We'll never know what, if any, effect those changes would have had on the result.


Yep I think that's the important part alright.

And I think on paper I'd back a Murray & Sexton combo that has beaten NZ twice to do it instead of a Cooney & Carbery combo that has barely (if ever?) played together.

As an aside, John Cooney is almost like the rugby team's versio of Wes Holohan. He gets better in people's minds when he doesn't play!

In reality, he's a pretty handy 29 year old (one year younger than the past it Conor Murray) who has been around three provinces and never really made the break into test level. I'm not sure why people think he's going to turn into a guy who can come into a World Cup QF at this stage.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Peg Leg » October 22nd, 2019, 9:45 am

wixfjord wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
We'll never know what, if any, effect those changes would have had on the result.


Yep I think that's the important part alright.

And I think on paper I'd back a Murray & Sexton combo that has beaten NZ twice to do it instead of a Cooney & Carbery combo that has barely (if ever?) played together.

As an aside, John Cooney is almost like the rugby team's versio of Wes Holohan. He gets better in people's minds when he doesn't play!

In reality, he's a pretty handy 29 year old (one year younger than the past it Conor Murray) who has been around three provinces and never really made the break into test level. I'm not sure why people think he's going to turn into a guy who can come into a World Cup QF at this stage.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby OTT » October 22nd, 2019, 10:24 am

A question that does not necessitate us talking about ending certain guys Ireland careers, who will be captain?

James Ryan for me, first name on the team sheet, leads by example, will be around for a long time injuries permitted.

Who are the candidates?
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Twist » October 22nd, 2019, 10:56 am

OTT wrote:A question that does not necessitate us talking about ending certain guys Ireland careers, who will be captain?

James Ryan for me, first name on the team sheet, leads by example, will be around for a long time injuries permitted.

Who are the candidates?


I'd have one fear about making Ryan captain. We rarely rotate the captaincy. It's seen as someone being 'stripped' of it (Heaslip, for example). So while I'm
fine with the idea of Ryan making the step up for next season, I don't like the idea that he has to wear it until after the 2027 world cup
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby blaker » October 22nd, 2019, 11:02 am

Something that keeps getting lost in convos re Murray.
- Marmion started v NZ in dublin
- Marmion started v England in Twickenham Grand Slam
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby cormac » October 22nd, 2019, 12:01 pm

blaker wrote:Something that keeps getting lost in convos re Murray.
- Marmion started v NZ in dublin
- Marmion started v England in Twickenham Grand Slam


Marmion didn't start the grand slam game in Twickenham. Murray played all 80 minutes and Marmion came on as a replacement for Keith Earls in the 74th minute.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby sunshiner1 » October 22nd, 2019, 2:26 pm

by cormac

Marmion didn't start the grand slam game in Twickenham. Murray played all 80 minutes and Marmion came on as a replacement for Keith Earls in the 74th minute.


A versatile scrum-half who can play more than one postion :shock: God forbid we bring him to the RWC
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 22nd, 2019, 2:35 pm

Reading the posts about Joe not having enough time with the team and remembering that others have delivered at 9 just makes me think Joe didn't trust the players enough. It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to the result but Murray was seriously off the pace on Saturday yet stayed on until quite near the end, and it's not the first time that's happened. There was this year in Cardiff (and I really can't understand Joe's argument that he was trying to play himself and Johnny into form) and then there was the time he kept him on against Wales when he only had one arm that actually worked.

BOD mentioned recently that he'd love to see a move where we just throw the ball wide to Ringrose on an outside arc and as basic as that sounds I think that kind of thing was really missing from our game.

Hopefully Catt and Farrell can back the players a little bit more and it makes a positive impact.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby flustered » October 22nd, 2019, 3:30 pm

The lack of ball carriers and a second playmaker is what killed us imo, only had Stander to carry in the backrow, Henderson was too static when he does carry, all other teams know that we only play off 10 and then makes it easier to defend against. I for one still dont see Carbery as the long term replacement for Sexton, I still haven't seen the evidence that he can be as good for Ireland as Sexton, I do however think he would be a great option at 15 (Larmour on the wing) and give us that second playmaker option
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby Oldschool » October 22nd, 2019, 3:46 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
We'll never know what, if any, effect those changes would have had on the result.


Yep I think that's the important part alright.

And I think on paper I'd back a Murray & Sexton combo that has beaten NZ twice to do it instead of a Cooney & Carbery combo that has barely (if ever?) played together.

As an aside, John Cooney is almost like the rugby team's versio of Wes Holohan. He gets better in people's minds when he doesn't play!

In reality, he's a pretty handy 29 year old (one year younger than the past it Conor Murray) who has been around three provinces and never really made the break into test level. I'm not sure why people think he's going to turn into a guy who can come into a World Cup QF at this stage.

If I'm interpreting your comments correctly regarding my posts then it looks like you would have stuck with the original selection, even with hindsight.
I wonder how that would have worked out.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby blaker » October 22nd, 2019, 10:26 pm

cormac wrote:
blaker wrote:Something that keeps getting lost in convos re Murray.
- Marmion started v NZ in dublin
- Marmion started v England in Twickenham Grand Slam


Marmion didn't start the grand slam game in Twickenham. Murray played all 80 minutes and Marmion came on as a replacement for Keith Earls in the 74th minute.


Apologies, you are right. He played the full game in the win v England the prior year that stopped their slam. Point stands though
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby cormac » October 22nd, 2019, 11:06 pm

blaker wrote:
Apologies, you are right. He played the full game in the win v England the prior year that stopped their slam. Point stands though


Luke McGrath replaced Marmion after 69 minutes in that match.
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby cormac » October 24th, 2019, 11:17 am

Are Ireland touring anywhere next Summer?
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby OTT » October 24th, 2019, 11:29 am

cormac wrote:Are Ireland touring anywhere next Summer?


From the Irish Times...

June 2020: Summer tour of Australia (two Tests) and Tier 2 (1 Test).
November 2020: Australia, South Africa, Tier 2.
June 2021: Summer tour to Pacific Islands (two Tests).
November 2021: New Zealand, Argentina & Tier 2.
Summer 2022: New Zealand (three Tests).
November 2022: South Africa, Australia & Tier 2.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3696787
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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby cormac » October 24th, 2019, 11:47 am

OTT wrote:
cormac wrote:Are Ireland touring anywhere next Summer?


From the Irish Times...

June 2020: Summer tour of Australia (two Tests) and Tier 2 (1 Test).
November 2020: Australia, South Africa, Tier 2.
June 2021: Summer tour to Pacific Islands (two Tests).
November 2021: New Zealand, Argentina & Tier 2.
Summer 2022: New Zealand (three Tests).
November 2022: South Africa, Australia & Tier 2.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3696787


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Re: Ireland 2020 and beyond

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » October 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm

There's zero chance of this happening but I'd be tempted to leave Furlong, James Ryan, and maybe a couple of others at home next summer. They'll be on a Lions tour the following year and then a three test tour of New Zealand the summer after that so it's a good chance to give them a break IMO. Either that or give them all a break this season until the new year. I really couldn't care less if we see them in blue for a while.

I was thinking that there's two areas that we really need to look at going forward, the centres and the back three. I still think Ringrose's all round game means that he should start but I'm nowhere near as certain about that as I used to be and I think he needs to step up big time in the 6N. None of our centre pairings fill me with confidence though tbh, although maybe that's partly coloured by Henshaw's two rusty performances in Japan. Would it be madness to switch Henshaw and Ringrose? Ringrose's hands are better and you'd still have the option for Robbie to do the donkey work. They could at least switch a lot during games.

Stockdale's defensive issues and the arrival of J-Lo next year mean that I'd pencil Lowe in as our starting winger. I'd like Stockdale to move to fullback and cover the left wing, and Larmour to move to fullback and cover the right wing (as a starter, he can do more off the bench) and Conway can start on the right wing a lot too if he keeps up his current form. As much as I want Joey to play at fullback, he's not going to move there for Munster and we obviously need him at outhalf too so I think (and it's about two years too late for this) that he should be at fullback for the last 20/30 minutes in games where we need a spark. Rob is on 95 caps, can't see him making it to 100 but I'd be surprised if he didn't get a send off in the 6N.
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