O'Sullivan Loses The Plot

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Dave Cahill
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Post by Dave Cahill »

CM wrote:
I would have thought that the obvious weaknesses would have caused at least a couple of changes. The completely unbalanced back-row is a serious cause for concern and was at least partially responsible for the concession of a try last saturday. The inability of the scrum half to break, thus putting further pressure on the outhalf is another serious issue that nothing has been done about for the last two years. And finally the total absense of anything even vaguely resembling his club form from the full back begs the question, if we put up with his weaknesses in defense to benefit from his attacking nous, and then hes not attacking, is he not just a poor international full back?
Dave, my point is why are you still in shock from this team announcement? He was never going to change it. He's clearly been training for the French match and even played the game as if we were playing against the French (e.g. we didn't really need the elaborate clearing of our lines against Italy but we will against France) and I imagine that just like I think Leinster did against Glasgow we trained closer to match day than we will this week thus explaining some lethargy.

On Murphy, he's not playing FB much for Leicester so I'm not sure what FB form you're talking about. Yes, I'd argue he isn't a great international FB but he clearly doesn't see Dempsey there for the WC so he's persisting with Murphy in the hope that the experience will make him a better FB. And he was excellent for us in that position in 2003.

The backrow argument was one to be had when the Italy team was picked, not today. I'd hope that he'll change it slightly for Wales but I'd disagree that it lacked balance. Again, the more the players play together the better they will become. Have some faith in the players if you're not going to have any in the coach.
I have plenty of faith in the players, if selected in their correct positions and not nailed to the floor with an american football style no risk playbook. However, they weren't and they are.

Our backrow is astonishingly unbalanced. We have not one, not two, but three blindside flankers in the backrow. No number 8, and crucially, no openside. We will, as we did against italy, get creamed at rucktime whilst our number 7 faffs around in the 12-13 channel. Meanwhile a backline containing some of the most potent players in European rugby have to wait and wait and wait whilst slow ball is dug out.

I genuinely cannot see how this team could have been selected with France in mind, there are no areas of tactical advantage we have, save in the centres and that has been negated by other selections. If we were to pick a heavy, mauling pack, then fair enough, at least there would have been a discernable uniqueness about it, but what we have is neither fish nor good red meat.

I dunno why I'm in shock, after all this is one of the most conservative coaches in the game, but I thought perhaps the worst Irish performance since god knows when would have enforced at least one or two changes, but it looks like the only changes that may happen will be forced upon us by the Disciplinary Committee, and thats not satisfactory
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Post by TrueBlue »

I'd have no problem with Best playing. One of the form flankers in Ireland this year, very aggressive and has a good all round game.
Don't get me wrong. Im not against Neill Best CM, but I feel Leamy and Wallace are better 6's than Neil Best. Im just angry that he chose to bring in Best as another 6 to the 3 already in the 22, rather than Gleeson/Jennings as another 7.

Hopefully we will see Gleeson back in the fold after France. :lol:
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Post by Duff Paddy »

CM wrote:DP

We'll see.
Eh ja, okay Yoda. Cheers for that.
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Post by CM »

Dave

I really think you're insulting the Italian performance.
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Post by CM »

TB

Whatever about Leamy I'm not sure how you can say Wallace is a better 6 than Best given that he's hardly played anywhere but 7 for years.

DP, I'm not sure what else I was to say. I have one opinion, you have another. We're not going to convince each other before Saturday so we'll just have to wait and see who's right.
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Post by Dave Cahill »

CM wrote:Dave

I really think you're insulting the Italian performance.
Not my intention to do so, but I consider this the finest group of players, en masse, to ever be available to the national side. That they need the help of the referee to get over an enthusiastic, well motivated, but quite frankly, tier three side is not on
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Post by Duff Paddy »

CM wrote:Dave

I really think you're insulting the Italian performance.
Do you think England will struggle against them in Rome? I don't.
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Post by CM »

Dave

You see I don't think this is necessarily any more talented than any other group we've had over the years. The only difference for me is O'Driscoll. We've 5 starters, 4 of whom we have no choice but to pick, that wouldn't get into any other side in the top 10 teams of the world. Of the Italian team I'd probably take the whole front row and at least Parisse and maybe Bergamasco along with Griffen and possibly the other Bergamasco. That's quite a few players while the others, especially Bortolami are very good players.

DP, will Italy give England a challenge? They'll certainly be a nuisance but you're not comparing like with like. No-one in their right mind would suggest we've anything like England's forward power so they'll be able to deal with Italy's spoiling tactics much better. They might also have a ref that'll ref the breakdown properly. There were 7 Italian and 6 Irish penalties given away at ruck time with nearly all of the Italian ones being when we were on the attack in their half. How many yellow cards?
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Post by groundhog »

Do you think England will struggle against them in Rome?
Actually I think for the first 60 mins England will struggle a little, Italy will have a pack that can compete with England, Wales spent too much time trying to get the ball away from the English forwards but when they actually took them on up front they did OK. Plus I think Englands bash them up the middle approach won't work against Italy who as we can testify are quite strong defensively in the middle. And with the brain dead twins Moody and Worsley playing, Italy will get opportunites to put points on the board. I think people aren't giving Italy as much credit as they should likewise England beat an injury ravaged Welsh side and are getting too much credit. I think England will win but certainly by no more than 10 - 13 points.
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Post by jezzer »

We're about to watch the following matchups and some people are suggesting this is the best Ireland selection for the game vs. France....

Nyanga vs. Easterby
Martin vs. Wallace
Bonnaire vs. Leamy

Ellisalde vs. Stringer
Michalak vs. O'Gara

And that's assuming Laporte doesn't bring on Boyet or Lievremont.

Lads, from 6 to 10 we're too slow, too clumsy, too unimaginative to trouble the French. I'm not even bringing in the front row cos we don't have options there, but this is not a formula to beat the French or any other dynamic side. This back row struggled to contain the bleedin' Italian pack, for God's sake. Maybe we had a bad day, but so did the French back row against Scotland and I'd still back them to eat us alive. As for Stringer vs. Ellisalde...GULP!
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Post by Crash »

jezzer wrote:We're about to watch the following matchups and some people are suggesting this is the best Ireland selection for the game vs. France....

Nyanga vs. Easterby
Martin vs. Wallace
Bonnaire vs. Leamy

Ellisalde vs. Stringer
Michalak vs. O'Gara

And that's assuming Laporte doesn't bring on Boyet or Lievremont.

Lads, from 6 to 10 we're too slow, too clumsy, too unimaginative to trouble the French. I'm not even bringing in the front row cos we don't have options there, but this is not a formula to beat the French or any other dynamic side. This back row struggled to contain the bleedin' Italian pack, for God's sake. Maybe we had a bad day, but so did the French back row against Scotland and I'd still back them to eat us alive. As for Stringer vs. Ellisalde...GULP!
He's picked Magne instead of Martin and he'll play blind. So it's

Nyanga v Wallace
Magne v Easterby.

erm.
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Post by jezzer »

I think that's a mistake by Laporte. Martin didn't have a great game but he's got the pace and handling that would have caused our back row and halfbacks real problems. i'm happy to see Magne in - not the player he once was...
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Post by harryp »

jezzer wrote:I think that's a mistake by Laporte. Martin didn't have a great game but he's got the pace and handling that would have caused our back row and halfbacks real problems. i'm happy to see Magne in - not the player he once was...
Yeah. Remy is outstanding come ruck time. Magne is a player more like our 3 No. 6's. A mistake by Laporte??
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Post by CM »

We're about to watch the following matchups and some people are suggesting this is the best Ireland selection for the game vs. France....
I don't think you'll find too many people agreeing with the backrow.

This French team is very beatable. Their only outstanding backrower is Nyanga and Wallace will match him for pace. Magne is off form all season and only recently back from injury while Bonnaire is a flanker playing 8, no different to Leamy and certainly didn't play any better than Leamy last weekend. The halfbacks are way off form. Michalak is still injured while Ellissade looked ponderous last weekend. Our guys may not have controlled the game as well as we would have liked but our control of position was quite good and Stringer's radar seems to be back. One of the ways we've beaten France in the past is Stringer's long ball to the centre, bypassing their backrow and our FH. Expect more of that as France's 10/12 defence will not be solid. And really, France's back three are nothing to write home about. They'd all challenge for our team and 2 would probably sneak in ahead of our guys but they're nothing special. On current form Fritz is the only guy we have to worry about.
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Post by jezzer »

CM,

think you're being very dismissive of the French, injuries and all....

Nyanga will destroy Wallace at breakdown. Wallace may have pace but that's from all the energy he saves by leaving rucks and mauls to other people!

Bonnaire is much more of a heads-up player than Leamy. I don't agree Ellissalde was poor last week. I thought he did well given the performance of the Scottish pack, Blair and the fact that Michalak was having a complete mare outside him.

So, Michalak is struggling and Marty is probably 5th choice centre (after Jauzion, Fritz, Castagneide, Baby). Thing is, he's first choice centre for a HEC QF team. Magne is a bit of a Foley call, and I don't think it'll help them.

I'd pick about 10 of the French team ahead of their Irish equivalents. Weak? Nah.
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Post by CM »

think you're being very dismissive of the French, injuries and all....
jezzer, I said they were beatable not that we'd thrash them!

I don't think Nyanga is a groundhog player. He's very much like Wallace. Has speed and all the skills. Granted he has a better workrate than Wallace and I'd never take Wallace over him but that doesn't mean we're going to be destroyed in that area.

10 players? On current form? Possibly the 2 props, 1 or 2 of the backrow, SH, and probably 2 of the back three. So for me that's 6 or 7 max.
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Post by jezzer »

CM wrote:
think you're being very dismissive of the French, injuries and all....
jezzer, I said they were beatable not that we'd thrash them!

I don't think Nyanga is a groundhog player. He's very much like Wallace. Has speed and all the skills. Granted he has a better workrate than Wallace and I'd never take Wallace over him but that doesn't mean we're going to be destroyed in that area.

10 players? On current form? Possibly the 2 props, 1 or 2 of the backrow, SH, and probably 2 of the back three. So for me that's 6 or 7 max.
I'd have the front row, Pelous for Mal (sorry big fella), Nyanga, Bonnaire (and put him at 6), Ellisalde, crocked Michalak over Ginge, and the back 3. That's 11. If I could ditch one to get back to my original 10, I'd drop Rougerie for Horgan or Murphy.

All that said, I'd have taken at least that many over the Scottish side. It's a funny oul game..... Scotland strength is mobility around the fringes from 6 to 9. a masterstroke from Eddie not to seek to learn from their example...
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Post by CM »

jezzer

Form wise there's no way you can take Michalak or Pelous. Mal may not have had the most notable game last weekend but he's been in great form all season. Pelous has little form to go on and wasn't great at all last weekend. Michalak is injured and has been for a while now. He can't control a game, ask the French. They're no more happy about him than we are about ROG and at least ROG can get us out of danger in a way Michalak can't. Both fully fit, of course you're take Michalak but not on current form.

Ibanez is apparently not doing much at Wasps and isn't in great form. I'm giving Flannery the benefit of the doubt.

Bonnaire did feck all last weekend and hasn't been any better than Leamy over the course of the season.

Of the back three, I wouldn't take Rougiere over Horgan or Murphy.
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Post by harryp »

jezzer wrote:
CM wrote:
think you're being very dismissive of the French, injuries and all....
Scotland strength is mobility around the fringes from 6 to 9. a masterstroke from Eddie not to seek to learn from their example...
Odd you should say that Jezzer, considering the Scots played with 3 No.6's who are arguably less mobile and more one dimensional than our Fearless Trio. The Scots caught France on the hop. Thats it, a lucky win, will not happen again, don't read too much into it.

I think the Current French side is pretty weak, compared to the depth of talent available to Laporte. I certainly wouldn't consider any more than 5 or 6 as reasonable candidates for Irish Jerseys.
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Post by jezzer »

White and Taylor are mobile backrowers - no question. Taylor in particular is a great footballer on top. Hogg perhaps less so, but he certainly managed to beat France to the ball. Our most mobile backrower likes rucks as much as I like Tony Ward's "He had no right to score that try, Ryle - that was pure vintage Brian O'Driscoll, straight out of the very top drawer" Ron Atkinson-esque commentary!

Scotland rucked France out of the game and made a horses-for-courses scrum half selection. Their players fit the bill for the tactics. If we were going to emulate those tactics, I'm raising the point that the Ireland selection from 6-9 isn't the best to do it.
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