France V Ireland Verdict

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 12:03 pm

epaddy wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
epaddy wrote:I dont thinks thats true flash, with the profile of rugby having shot up, sponsorship deals are worth far more then they used to be and I would guess far more then the IRFU thought they would be
Sponsorship "prices" have dropped ePaddy. Leinster were live on terrestrial telly only three times this season, and won't be at all next season, same goes for Munster, and even more so for Ulster...and thats just one example
I was talking about the national side Dave, shirts sponsor ship will double next year thanks to 02

Its all the same pot though epaddy...reduced provincial income from sponsorship has to be made up for from central funds. The initial strat plan planned for a breakeven of 2007, but it was based on the redeveloped stadium being 65K, it had to be revised to 2009/10 when 50K became the capacity, and it will have to be revised again now that the best international contracts are now hitting the 400K mark (or near enough) and provincial sponsorships aren't earning as per predictions. Combined with the soaring costs of the Thomond Park redevelopment, the delays in Stadium NI, the need to hire the RDS (a great idea, don't get me wrong, but not from a fiscal pov) these are all shortfalls provincially that weren't budgetted for and will have to be made up for from the Unions pot. Revenue streams are under severe pressure and a failure to qualify for the quarter finals at least of the RWC could put the Union in a terminally perilous position

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 12:07 pm

The strategic plan was not drawn up in 2003 because the IRFU were bored and wanted to produce a nice shiny document. It's there for the survival of Irish Rugby. O'Sullivan is failing in all the targeted objectives set out for him in that report.

ckav, the Strategic plan covers the period from May 2004 till 2008. So far of the objectives EOS has had to meet only two can be measured. The rankings and the 6N. He has a target of one championship, runners up in at least 3 of the 4 6N and a semi final of the WC. As I stated above I think we've a good chance of winning this competition let alone finishing 2nd. If France beat England we've a very good chance of winning the 6N but if they don't then we're still in with a good chance of a runners up spot even if we don't beat England.

Whether I think EOS is the right man for the job I think some of the things he's criticised for (at least half of Dave's list) is ridiculous. The right time for the change of coach was the beginning of this season. We didn't do it but I'm treating EOS's tenure as being split in two. 2002-April 2005 and then April 2005-April 2008. It's really the only option. Whether or not I'm right in believing that EOS will deliver on the promise that I see from some of our recent play is immaterial. I have to believe it because otherwise I'd be on here playing the same broken record to no avail. What you guys are doing is like banging your head against the wall. It means that every Irish match you experience you're looking for mistakes to hand Eddie with and even if we win this championship and the next plus get to the final/win the world cup you'll still probably come back and say 'well with a different coach we would have done it in more style'. You just don't like him, as you say your opinion to have but really the record hasn't changed for a year now while Ireland's style, age profile, skill levels and general play have improved. I wouldn't have agreed but neither would i have been averse to a coach change at the start of this season but from now on I'm supporting Ireland, be it Eddie's or not, and taking the positives, of which I believe there are many, out of the recent games.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 12:50 pm

CM, On what do you base your opinion that things are getting better? The world rankings don't lie, we're getting worse!

And that's EOS's fault - we were told when he came on board that there would be no more thumpings and humiliations - we've had 11 or 12 in 5 years as far as I can remember.

We had a good 20 minutes in the second half of one game and that was when the players threw the game plan out the window. From where I was sitting in the stade, you could see the backline drop deeper and give themselves space - I'm not a rugby coach, but even I knew that the French were going to blitz us and play close to the offside line. Laporte is nothing if not predictable - he ALWAYS plays that way!

I want to be optimistic, but when I see a results sequence that shows loss after loss and us sliding down the rankings I can't. EOS said that we should judge him on his record. We are.

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 1:36 pm

CM, On what do you base your opinion that things are getting better?

Our play. Sure we haven't put in a complete performance yet but Leinster didn't exactly click straight away either. 8 of the 22 are recently first choice in the squad while 4 of the pack are only recently 1st choice starters. That takes time. Every team, even NZ, goes through dips in form every couple of years. I'm taking the short term pain for long term gain approach.

And yes, EOS did screw up last year's 6N. I'm not disagreeing with anyone saying that. I just believe that we would be going through what we're going through at the moment with any coach and that we will be a better team because of it by the end of this season.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 1:41 pm

CM wrote:
CM, On what do you base your opinion that things are getting better?
Our play. Sure we haven't put in a complete performance yet but Leinster didn't exactly click straight away either. 8 of the 22 are recently first choice in the squad while 4 of the pack are only recently 1st choice starters. That takes time. Every team, even NZ, goes through dips in form every couple of years. I'm taking the short term pain for long term gain approach.

And yes, EOS did screw up last year's 6N. I'm not disagreeing with anyone saying that. I just believe that we would be going through what we're going through at the moment with any coach and that we will be a better team because of it by the end of this season.

But where's out peak? We haven't won anything!

And what part of our play looks good to you, i don't see it to be honest.....

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 1:57 pm

From L'équipe : Interview with Laurent Bénézech

L'Irlande enfin : pour moi la plus grosse déception de ce début de Tournoi. Pas à cause de son potentiel joueur ! Au contraire ! Plutôt à cause de son entraîneur. En effet, avoir voulu faire jouer son équipe au Stade de France comme l'Ecosse une semaine avant avec un jeu débridé et à haut risque contre une équipe de France qui allait obligatoirement réagir, notamment en défense, était suicidaire. Ne pas essayer de mettre la pression sur Christophe Dominici, ailier jouant exceptionnellement à l'arrière, par du jeu au pied soit en chandelle, soit de déplacement, était d'une stupidité incroyable ! Eddie O'Sullivan a fait exactement ce qu'il ne fallait pas faire stratégiquement ! L'Irlande a deux superbes potentiels avec les avants du Munster et les trois-quarts du Leinster. Malheureusement, tant qu'elle restera avec cet entraîneur, le pays se contentera de regrets au lieu de résultats...»

Lastly Ireland : For me the biggest disappointment of the start of the 6N's. Not because of its potential! Exactly the opposite! More so because of its trainer. Effectively try to play like Scotland a week before with a high risk, wide expansive game against a french team that was obviously going to react (to defeat in Sco) especially in defence was suicidal. Not to target Dominicic, playing out of position at FB with garryowens or positional kicks was an incredible stupidity. Eddie O'Sullivan did exactly what you shouldn't do strategically. Ireland have 2 superb potentials with the forwards of Munster & the 3/4's of Leinster. Unfortuantely while they stay with this trainer, the country will need to be satisfied with disapointement instead of results.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 1:59 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:From L'équipe : Interview with Laurent Bénézech

L'Irlande enfin : pour moi la plus grosse déception de ce début de Tournoi. Pas à cause de son potentiel joueur ! Au contraire ! Plutôt à cause de son entraîneur. En effet, avoir voulu faire jouer son équipe au Stade de France comme l'Ecosse une semaine avant avec un jeu débridé et à haut risque contre une équipe de France qui allait obligatoirement réagir, notamment en défense, était suicidaire. Ne pas essayer de mettre la pression sur Christophe Dominici, ailier jouant exceptionnellement à l'arrière, par du jeu au pied soit en chandelle, soit de déplacement, était d'une stupidité incroyable ! Eddie O'Sullivan a fait exactement ce qu'il ne fallait pas faire stratégiquement ! L'Irlande a deux superbes potentiels avec les avants du Munster et les trois-quarts du Leinster. Malheureusement, tant qu'elle restera avec cet entraîneur, le pays se contentera de regrets au lieu de résultats...»

Lastly Ireland : For me the biggest disappointment of the start of the 6N's. Not because of its potential! Exactly the opposite! More so because of its trainer. Effectively try to play like Scotland a week before with a high risk, wide expansive game against a french team that was obviously going to react (to defeat in Sco) especially in defence was suicidal. Not to target Dominicic, playing out of position at FB with garryowens or positional kicks was an incredible stupidity. Eddie O'Sullivan did exactly what you shouldn't do strategically. Ireland have 2 superb potentials with the forwards of Munster & the 3/4's of Leinster. Unfortuantely while they stay with this trainer, the country will need to be satisfied with disapointement instead of results.

Jasus, L'Equipe doesn't pull its punches does it!

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 2:23 pm

And what part of our play looks good to you, i don't see it to be honest.....

We regularily make 200 passes, 20 linebreaks, offload 34 times in the tackle, only have to make 35 tackles, win the ball 150 times and score 4 tries against the French, do we? And no, all those events didn't take place in the final 30. We made 3 or 4 excellent breaks in the first half, two of which were screwed up by Murphy while we were camped on the French line 4 or 5 times in that half.

You can't honestly tell me that at 19-3 or 29-3 down that you thought it was a fair reflection of the match? And no I'm not trying to spout any moral victory nonsense but I despair if you can't see an improvement over the last 5 games.

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 2:27 pm

CM wrote:
And what part of our play looks good to you, i don't see it to be honest.....
We regularily make 200 passes, 20 linebreaks, offload 34 times in the tackle, only have to make 35 tackles, win the ball 150 times and score 4 tries against the French, do we? And no, all those events didn't take place in the final 30. We made 3 or 4 excellent breaks in the first half, two of which were screwed up by Murphy while we were camped on the French line 4 or 5 times in that half.

You can't honestly tell me that at 19-3 or 29-3 down that you thought it was a fair reflection of the match? And no I'm not trying to spout any moral victory nonsense but I despair if you can't see an improvement over the last 5 games.

Lost to France, Lost to Wales, Lost to New Zealand, Lost to Australia, Lost to France.

Could you please explain to me where the improvement is?

harryp · Post by **harryp** » February 13th, 2006, 2:31 pm

CM wrote:
And what part of our play looks good to you, i don't see it to be honest.....
We regularily make 200 passes, 20 linebreaks, offload 34 times in the tackle, only have to make 35 tackles, win the ball 150 times and score 4 tries against the French, do we? And no, all those events didn't take place in the final 30. We made 3 or 4 excellent breaks in the first half, two of which were screwed up by Murphy while we were camped on the French line 4 or 5 times in that half.

You can't honestly tell me that at 19-3 or 29-3 down that you thought it was a fair reflection of the match? And no I'm not trying to spout any moral victory nonsense but I despair if you can't see an improvement over the last 5 games.

Hang on CM. Fair reflection. At no point in the first half did we look capable of scoring a try. More often than not we were going backwards.

As for the Line Breaks. We all know that our Backs can run. The problem is the support. How many times was some excellent work destroyed because there was no Back Row clearing the rucks, no Scrum Half up with the play and delivering quick ball, and no OH Capable of anything.

Stats can create whatever picture you want to see.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 2:34 pm

CM, results don't lie!!!! I haven't seen improvement because our team keeps losing!!!! Have we or have we not lost games? Have we or have we not been sliding down the world rankings? Those are the things that matter. You may despair at my conclusion, but its one that most journalists are coming to, and I would venture to suggest that the players came to the same conclusion 10 minutes into the second half last weekend when they so obviously ditched the game plan!

As for the match stats, the ones that stuck out for me were 33 errors and 22 turnovers conceeded against us. I was also struck by the fact that we only kicked 9% of ball when the guy at OH is one of the finest exponents of the kicking for territory game and given that the French fullback was playing out of position! As for passes completed, there's no point in completing a pass to an attacker running up flat with a French defender in his face.....hence the turnovers.......

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 2:37 pm

Lost to France, Lost to Wales, Lost to New Zealand, Lost to Australia, Lost to France.

Dave, I've already stated that EOS has started with a clean slate for me at the beginning of the season. It'd be the same grace we'd give a new coach and given that EOS had no choice but to lose around at least 4 players from last year's pack I'm giving him the same grace.

At no point in the first half did we look capable of scoring a try.

You've got to be kidding me? First 5 minutes ROG and Stringer both nearly score while it was the pass not the build up that meant we didn't score. Then Murphy screws up a break when he had a player inside and outside him plus the other two or three times we were camped on their line and the other 2 or 3 50 yard breaks we made. Of course there has to be criticism for not finishing off breaks or scoring when camped on the line but to say we never looked like scoring is ridiculous.

How many times was some excellent work destroyed because there was no Back Row clearing the rucks, no Scrum Half up with the play and delivering quick ball, and no OH Capable of anything.

Not very often.

I'm not using the stats to say we should have won but I've never seen us dominate any team, let alone France, to the extent we did last Saturday. If that's not an improvement since NZ then I don't know what is.

thecoolfreak · Post by **thecoolfreak** » February 13th, 2006, 2:38 pm

ts one that most journalists are coming to

And u take the Irish media seriously?

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 2:43 pm

Have we or have we not been sliding down the world rankings?

Eh, no we haven't. Wales overtook us last March and that's been the only change for the last couple of years.

when the guy at OH is one of the finest exponents of the kicking for territory game

Yeah, he was great wasn't he. Only two tries against him when trying to kick for territory. We should be so proud. Oh and the missed touch indirectly led to their 2nd try too.

'Joking' aside, we kicked for territory when we needed to. We were making ground at will for most of the game including 3 massive breaks in the first half. We played exactly the same in the second half but because the French stood off it meant we were able to run at them and our runners were running onto the ball more. Take Trimble's try. The setup of the ball for that was a carbon copy of a lot of what went on in the first half but the French defence didn't set half as well so BOD was able to make the break. It's exactly the tactic D'Arcy talked about in his column last week and exactly what they'd been trying to do all day.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 2:49 pm

We were ranked 3rd at one point. Now we are 7th. So I think you'll find we are......the IRFU plan was to be top 5 by the way.....and if Argentina were allowed to play their fair share of home games with a full strength squad, they'd likely be above us too.....

By the way, why do you keep going on about a clean slate for Eddie? He doesn't have a clean slate. He was brought in 5 years ago to "take us the next level". We had just finished equal on points at the top of the 6 nations having beaten England and France. He patently hasn't delivered that having the best pool of players for a generation and unlimited access to them. The Irish set up is an international managers dream!!

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 3:02 pm

We were ranked 3rd at one point

We were ranked third for a couple of months before the WC started. By the time we'd met Australia I think we may even have been below them while I think we finished the WC in 6th. As I said, we've only dropped a place over the last couple of years.

As I keep on saying the time to change the coach was at the start of the season. Once that wasn't done I've given EOS the same grace as I would a new coach given the turnover in the pack and 22 and the change in style. You don't want to, that's your choice. I've made mine

harryp · Post by **harryp** » February 13th, 2006, 3:07 pm

Cheer up lads.

Anyone see the tantrum Ballyman's throwing at ckav on the POC for Captain thread.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 3:09 pm

harryp wrote:Cheer up lads.

Anyone see the tantrum Ballyman's throwing at ckav on the POC for Captain thread.

An uprovoked attack and very abusive. Hope that doesn't become a regular feature here......its not funny.

Duff Paddy · Post by **Duff Paddy** » February 13th, 2006, 5:42 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:
harryp wrote:Cheer up lads.

Anyone see the tantrum Ballyman's throwing at ckav on the POC for Captain thread.
An uprovoked attack and very abusive. Hope that doesn't become a regular feature here......its not funny.

The girls on PR get a lot of unwelcome attention as well. It's good to see the reaction on this forum - hopefully we can maintain a reasonable standard here.