France V Ireland Verdict

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 10:11 am

CM wrote:Flash

Whatever. If you approach the game looking for things to criticise EOS with then all you'll see are the mistakes.

What do you mean "whatever"? Look at the last series of games and tell me what Eddie O'Sullivan did right"!

The IRFU objectives are to win the championship and get to the world cup semi final by 2007. Do you honestly think that we're going to do that with this coach in charge?

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 10:26 am

Look at the last series of games and tell me what Eddie O'Sullivan did right"!

Mistakes made for sure in the selections for France and Wales last year. However, just like Leinster this year, he's been rebuilding the style of play and it was always going to take time to click. If this was a new coach everyone would be looking at the positives (like Leinster fans were in defeat against Bath and Bourgoin) not the negatives.

The IRFU objectives are to win the championship and get to the world cup semi final by 2007. Do you honestly think that we're going to do that with this coach in charge?

Yes, I really do. If France beat England in Paris I reckon we have a good chance of winning this year. If England win in Paris we'll either need to have thrashed Wales and Scotland or we'll need to beat England by quite a bit. The former is possible but the latter is unlikely.

Look, I've taken O'Sullivan out of the equation for a while now. Yes there's selection issues I've disagreed with but looking purely at the performance of the team we've improved dramatically since NZ and we're a far superior team to the one that took the field against Wales last year. Comparing our play against France last year we had nearly 3 times as many linebreaks, offloads in tackle, passes while having to make about 3 times fewer tackles and forcing France into nearly 3 times as many tackles. We're playing a lot more rugby this year and that will definitely count when it comes to playing against England.

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 10:41 am

CM wrote:Flash

Whatever. If you approach the game looking for things to criticise EOS with then all you'll see are the mistakes.

Which mistakes are these now?

Picking three blindside flankers in our back row?
Persisting with Murphy at Fullback?
Persisiting with Ronan (three blocked kicks returned for tries in his last three games) O'Gara?
Taking what Munster do best, and what Leinster do best, throwing it in the bin and playing a game none of the players believe in?
Ignoring some of the best players available to us due to perceived slights?
Presiding over the worst series of performances from an Irish team I have ever seen?
Stating that the future of Irish Rugby is "none of my concern"
Taking credit for a second half display that had absolutely nothing to do with him?
Ambushing provincial chances in the HEC and CL with pointless training camps?
Pissing away two potential GS' in successive years?

The list is nigh on endless

harryp · Post by **harryp** » February 13th, 2006, 10:41 am

CM wrote:
Look at the last series of games and tell me what Eddie O'Sullivan did right"!
Look, I've taken O'Sullivan out of the equation for a while now. Yes there's selection issues I've disagreed with but looking purely at the performance of the team we've improved dramatically since NZ and we're a far superior team to the one that took the field against Wales last year. Comparing our play against France last year we had nearly 3 times as many linebreaks, offloads in tackle, passes while having to make about 3 times fewer tackles and forcing France into nearly 3 times as many tackles. We're playing a lot more rugby this year and that will definitely count when it comes to playing against England.

Granted, we may be playing a better brand of rugby. But;

1. Our Scrum is a shambles
2. Our Lineout, once the envy of the World, is now pretty predictable, and far less potent than it has been at any point in time in the recent past.
3. Our Ball retention is a disaster. Its all well and good making line breaks etc, but we are actually unable to ruck our own ball.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 10:46 am

I don't know what to say to you CM - after watching all the games since the total humiliation at the hands of the all Blacks seconds, I've seen us beaten by a dreadful Australian team that sacked their coach straight afterwards, we should have lost to Italy and we were humiliated last weekend. In none of those games did we play remotely well.
As for rebuilding - Eddie's been in charge for 5 years! We struggle with depth in certain positions because he didn't experiment when he had a chance - when we went to Japan, he played Stringer for both games FFS.

We have had the best players for a generation in Irish rugby, EOS has more access to players than his top 5 rivals, being able to take them or rest them at will (which has severaely dented provincial rugby's ability to win the European cup by the way) and he's not delivered the championship.

When he took this team we were equal top on points - he hasn't moved us forward one iota.

thecoolfreak · Post by **thecoolfreak** » February 13th, 2006, 10:48 am

not matter what we say irish rugby looks like it is on the way up. we are trying to play in a similar style to leinster, however this is going to take time. it did for leinster anyway, remember the defeat to bath and the hammering we took against munster.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 10:49 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
CM wrote:Flash

Whatever. If you approach the game looking for things to criticise EOS with then all you'll see are the mistakes.
Which mistakes are these now?

Picking three blindside flankers in our back row?
Persisting with Murphy at Fullback?
Persisiting with Ronan (three blocked kicks returned for tries in his last three games) O'Gara?
Taking what Munster do best, and what Leinster do best, throwing it in the bin and playing a game none of the players believe in?
Ignoring some of the best players available to us due to perceived slights?
Presiding over the worst series of performances from an Irish team I have ever seen?
Stating that the future of Irish Rugby is "none of my concern"
Taking credit for a second half display that had absolutely nothing to do with him?
Ambushing provincial chances in the HEC and CL with pointless training camps?
Pissing away two potential GS' in successive years?

The list is nigh on endless

Well said Dave.....

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 10:52 am

thecoofreak wrote:not matter what we say irish rugby looks like it is on the way up. we are trying to play in a similar style to leinster, however this is going to take time. it did for leinster anyway, remember the defeat to bath and the hammering we took against munster.

Would Cheika and Knox go into a game without an openside flanker? Not likely. Would they tolerate a back line so flat it was almost staggered the opposite direction? Not likely. Would they tolerate the utter lack of composure shown in the last ten minutes when, for whatever reason, we were back in the game? Not likely.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 10:53 am

thecoofreak wrote:not matter what we say irish rugby looks like it is on the way up. we are trying to play in a similar style to leinster, however this is going to take time. it did for leinster anyway, remember the defeat to bath and the hammering we took against munster.

There is ZERO evidence to suggest that we are on the way up - our recent sequence of results suggests we are in decline and our world ranking has slipped to 7th from 3rd.

As for playing like Leinster, you need half backs to do that. Our half backs are too slow. Leinster have shown palpable signs of quick improvement over the last year. Ireland haven't moved forward in 5 years of Eddie. How long do you want to give him????

ckav · Post by **ckav** » February 13th, 2006, 11:00 am

thecoofreak wrote:not matter what we say irish rugby looks like it is on the way up... .

Yep, Up Sh*tCreek without a paddle.

CM · Post by CM » February 13th, 2006, 11:17 am

blah, blah, blah,blah

Same broken record.

ckav · Post by **ckav** » February 13th, 2006, 11:21 am

CM wrote:blah, blah, blah,blah

Same broken record.

Seriously for a moment, CM. You're entitled to hold the views you do - certainly in recent years we have made gains on the international stage.
BUT
what Eddie O'Sullivan sceptics like Dave, Flash and myself worry about, is the longer-term outlook. The strategic plan was not drawn up in 2003 because the IRFU were bored and wanted to produce a nice shiny document. It's there for the survival of Irish Rugby. O'Sullivan is failing in all the targeted objectives set out for him in that report.

What do you think? should he remain until after 07, and maybe beyond? Do you think that Saturday's game was, as he put it in the post-match, a game where "we played all the rugby and we were unlucky?"

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 11:21 am

CM wrote:blah, blah, blah,blah

Same broken record.

Do the facts of the situation disturb you CM?

Seriously, tell us why you think things are getting better. Tell us why EOS is a good coach - cos to my knowledge he's won fock all and our team is slipping in the world rankings!

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 11:24 am

CM wrote:blah, blah, blah,blah

Same broken record.

Tell you what so, you keep waving your flag, cheering on Eddies Ireland as we continue to drift down the world rankings, fail to make the quarters of the RWC, have to qualify for the next ones, thus losing our (leinsters) players for even more of the season at crucial times, the resultant loss of income being made up for by reduced provincial budgets, which of course hits us again as we will not be able to sign/retain quality players etc etc etc.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 11:24 am

ckav wrote:
CM wrote:blah, blah, blah,blah

Same broken record.
Seriously for a moment, CM. You're entitled to hold the views you do - certainly in recent years we have made gains on the international stage.
BUT
what Eddie O'Sullivan sceptics like Dave, Flash and myself worry about, is the longer-term outlook. The strategic plan was not drawn up in 2003 because the IRFU were bored and wanted to produce a nice shiny document. It's there for the survival of Irish Rugby. O'Sullivan is failing in all the targeted objectives set out for him in that report.

What do you think? should he remain until after 07, and maybe beyond? Do you think that Saturday's game was, as he put it in the post-match, a game where "we played all the rugby and we were unlucky?"

It goes beyond the feel good factor of winning. The IRFU plan is only to break even financially in 2009. And that depends on:
1. Winning the championship
2. Never finishing outside the top 2 (failled last year obviously)
3. World cup semi final - that means beating France and Argentina
4. A province winning the European Cup.

If we don't achieve these our finances are focked. What does that mean? Players won't stay at home and the Leinster backline will end up replacing BOD and Flash with out of work GP centers from Samoa and Fiji! Its fockin serious!

epaddy · Post by **epaddy** » February 13th, 2006, 11:40 am

I dont thinks thats true flash, with the profile of rugby having shot up, sponsorship deals are worth far more then they used to be and I would guess far more then the IRFU thought they would be

Dave Cahill · Post by **Dave Cahill** » February 13th, 2006, 11:45 am

epaddy wrote:I dont thinks thats true flash, with the profile of rugby having shot up, sponsorship deals are worth far more then they used to be and I would guess far more then the IRFU thought they would be

Sponsorship "prices" have dropped ePaddy. Leinster were live on terrestrial telly only three times this season, and won't be at all next season, same goes for Munster, and even more so for Ulster...and thats just one example

epaddy · Post by **epaddy** » February 13th, 2006, 11:46 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
epaddy wrote:I dont thinks thats true flash, with the profile of rugby having shot up, sponsorship deals are worth far more then they used to be and I would guess far more then the IRFU thought they would be
Sponsorship "prices" have dropped ePaddy. Leinster were live on terrestrial telly only three times this season, and won't be at all next season, same goes for Munster, and even more so for Ulster...and thats just one example

I was talking about the national side Dave, shirts sponsor ship will double next year thanks to 02

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 11:51 am

And wages have gone up......I suspect they broke the bank to keep Bod here.....similarly, we have restarted the A-team for which there was no budget historically......and we're still losing 4million a year I think.....so the plan needs success to work

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 13th, 2006, 11:57 am

epaddy wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
epaddy wrote:I dont thinks thats true flash, with the profile of rugby having shot up, sponsorship deals are worth far more then they used to be and I would guess far more then the IRFU thought they would be
Sponsorship "prices" have dropped ePaddy. Leinster were live on terrestrial telly only three times this season, and won't be at all next season, same goes for Munster, and even more so for Ulster...and thats just one example
I was talking about the national side Dave, shirts sponsor ship will double next year thanks to 02

Don't always believe what you read on sponsorship - first up, if O2 paid double I'd be amazed. the property isn't worth it. 2nd up what's announced is often not what's paid. Toyota told Turnipstan that they were going to bid 750K, it actually came in at 450.