B&I cup to be scrapped

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B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby fourthirtythree » November 17th, 2017, 10:09 pm

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41997127

Please delete if this has been posted.

I guess it could, possibly, be of some benefit for the clubs. Maybe.

It tended to be asymmetric and whichever team had the more experienced team out due to availability and needs had a facile win.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby cormac » November 19th, 2017, 1:01 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41997127

Please delete if this has been posted.

I guess it could, possibly, be of some benefit for the clubs. Maybe.

It tended to be asymmetric and whichever team had the more experienced team out due to availability and needs had a facile win.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24894&start=40

It was mentioned in the Leinster A thread a few weeks back. Will be interesting to see if there's any new competition for them to play in.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby ronk » November 19th, 2017, 1:14 pm

Maybe A interpros.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby sunshiner1 » November 20th, 2017, 4:42 am

I for one think this is a shame that it's going.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby hugonaut » November 20th, 2017, 8:51 am

cormac wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41997127

Please delete if this has been posted.

I guess it could, possibly, be of some benefit for the clubs. Maybe.

It tended to be asymmetric and whichever team had the more experienced team out due to availability and needs had a facile win.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24894&start=40

It was mentioned in the Leinster A thread a few weeks back. Will be interesting to see if there's any new competition for them to play in.


Mick Dawson wants to see the same competition, but without the English sides. Leinster want to keep their 'A' fixtures.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Oldschool » November 20th, 2017, 5:39 pm

The standard of teams in this comp. is very mixed.
Maybe the four provinces and an AIL representative team would be worth considering.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby johng » November 20th, 2017, 7:52 pm

I'd like to see the AIL prioritised.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 21st, 2017, 11:56 am

johng wrote:I'd like to see the AIL prioritised.


So would I, but not with the ridiculous player distribution that exists at present which is a divvy up between UCD, L'downe and 'Tarf / Mary's.

A realistic solution, suggested previously and still worth debate, would be to include an Academy / A side from each Province into the AIL First Div fixture list, with obviously no points available to the Provincial teams, but available to the Club in question. All games played in Club venues, probably with some adjustment to the fixture list for these games e.g. each AIL team players against two Provincial opponents. In this manner, 20 additional games become available to the four Provinces whilst each Club would get two additional League home games, against Provincial opposition, with two possibilities of additional League points, a good gate and the opportunity to play against future Irish players.

Possibly, there might need to be restrictions on the Provincial teams, e.g. no more than two players over age 23, but such details could be worked out.

This would provide the essential link between the Club game and Academy young professionals, which has never been satisfactory, since the establishment of Provincial Academies.

Trying to integrate professional players into "amateur" clubs teams distorts both and results in the further distortion of the entire league with some Clubs having 10 or more 'contracted' players and others having none, makes a total parody of the idea of a 'fair competition'.

Once a group of players are being developed professionally (at the expense and time of a 3rd party), IMO, their original Club should cease to have any valid claim on their services for participation in an "amateur competition". Other interpretations are merely rationalisations by individual Clubs as to why they should have professional players in competition against amateurs. Arguments offered that this should be the "player's choice" are nonsense and, legally invalid. Each player conceded his right to this choice when he signed his Academy or Provincial contract.

A realistic and mutually beneficial alignment of Club and Provincial Academy rugby has been stymied for the past decade by the conflicted interests of a small number of individuals in the IRFU Committee and Provincial administrations. Garryowen, Cork Con, Lansdowne and UCD are the principal beneficaries and their relative accumulation of trophies at Senior and Under 20 level is the proof of this contention.

If all concerned were genuinely interested in aligning Club and Academy / A team rugby in the country, for the true benefit of Clubs and the professional game, there are solutions which would benefit both parties and improve all of the players involved. The structure outlined above may not be perfect, but it would a decent starting point for a realistic discussion of the matter.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Peg Leg » November 21st, 2017, 5:53 pm

Great Post. I would add A team league points recorded separately with 1st and 2nd playing for an interpro cup
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Fireworks » November 21st, 2017, 6:19 pm

Something like the above would be interesting. The only problem is that it might be over complicating the league. I wonder if we could use an american football style draft system for the clubs to get select guys from the academies to avoid any one team ending up with too many.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Dave Cahill » November 21st, 2017, 6:25 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
johng wrote:I'd like to see the AIL prioritised.


So would I, but not with the ridiculous player distribution that exists at present which is a divvy up between UCD, L'downe and 'Tarf / Mary's.

A realistic solution, suggested previously and still worth debate, would be to include an Academy / A side from each Province into the AIL First Div fixture list, with obviously no points available to the Provincial teams, but available to the Club in question. All games played in Club venues, probably with some adjustment to the fixture list for these games e.g. each AIL team players against two Provincial opponents. In this manner, 20 additional games become available to the four Provinces whilst each Club would get two additional League home games, against Provincial opposition, with two possibilities of additional League points, a good gate and the opportunity to play against future Irish players.

Possibly, there might need to be restrictions on the Provincial teams, e.g. no more than two players over age 23, but such details could be worked out.

This would provide the essential link between the Club game and Academy young professionals, which has never been satisfactory, since the establishment of Provincial Academies.

Trying to integrate professional players into "amateur" clubs teams distorts both and results in the further distortion of the entire league with some Clubs having 10 or more 'contracted' players and others having none, makes a total parody of the idea of a 'fair competition'.

Once a group of players are being developed professionally (at the expense and time of a 3rd party), IMO, their original Club should cease to have any valid claim on their services for participation in an "amateur competition". Other interpretations are merely rationalisations by individual Clubs as to why they should have professional players in competition against amateurs. Arguments offered that this should be the "player's choice" are nonsense and, legally invalid. Each player conceded his right to this choice when he signed his Academy or Provincial contract.

A realistic and mutually beneficial alignment of Club and Provincial Academy rugby has been stymied for the past decade by the conflicted interests of a small number of individuals in the IRFU Committee and Provincial administrations. Garryowen, Cork Con, Lansdowne and UCD are the principal beneficaries and their relative accumulation of trophies at Senior and Under 20 level is the proof of this contention.

If all concerned were genuinely interested in aligning Club and Academy / A team rugby in the country, for the true benefit of Clubs and the professional game, there are solutions which would benefit both parties and improve all of the players involved. The structure outlined above may not be perfect, but it would a decent starting point for a realistic discussion of the matter.


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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby ormond lad » November 21st, 2017, 8:40 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
johng wrote:I'd like to see the AIL prioritised.


So would I, but not with the ridiculous player distribution that exists at present which is a divvy up between UCD, L'downe and 'Tarf / Mary's.

A realistic solution, suggested previously and still worth debate, would be to include an Academy / A side from each Province into the AIL First Div fixture list, with obviously no points available to the Provincial teams, but available to the Club in question. All games played in Club venues, probably with some adjustment to the fixture list for these games e.g. each AIL team players against two Provincial opponents. In this manner, 20 additional games become available to the four Provinces whilst each Club would get two additional League home games, against Provincial opposition, with two possibilities of additional League points, a good gate and the opportunity to play against future Irish players.

Possibly, there might need to be restrictions on the Provincial teams, e.g. no more than two players over age 23, but such details could be worked out.

This would provide the essential link between the Club game and Academy young professionals, which has never been satisfactory, since the establishment of Provincial Academies.

Trying to integrate professional players into "amateur" clubs teams distorts both and results in the further distortion of the entire league with some Clubs having 10 or more 'contracted' players and others having none, makes a total parody of the idea of a 'fair competition'.

Once a group of players are being developed professionally (at the expense and time of a 3rd party), IMO, their original Club should cease to have any valid claim on their services for participation in an "amateur competition". Other interpretations are merely rationalisations by individual Clubs as to why they should have professional players in competition against amateurs. Arguments offered that this should be the "player's choice" are nonsense and, legally invalid. Each player conceded his right to this choice when he signed his Academy or Provincial contract.

A realistic and mutually beneficial alignment of Club and Provincial Academy rugby has been stymied for the past decade by the conflicted interests of a small number of individuals in the IRFU Committee and Provincial administrations. Garryowen, Cork Con, Lansdowne and UCD are the principal beneficaries and their relative accumulation of trophies at Senior and Under 20 level is the proof of this contention.

If all concerned were genuinely interested in aligning Club and Academy / A team rugby in the country, for the true benefit of Clubs and the professional game, there are solutions which would benefit both parties and improve all of the players involved. The structure outlined above may not be perfect, but it would a decent starting point for a realistic discussion of the matter.
Why would clubs want that? Where do these provincial sides play?
Surely the players then should just play with the clubs.
A games are needed but not playing in the clubs league
I dont see why the AIL clubs should have no "claim" on a player because they sign an academy or any other type of contract.
Perhaps the contracted players should be drafted to the clubs in the top 2/3 divisions evenly
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby COYBIB » November 22nd, 2017, 6:05 pm

I'd like to see a Pro14 'A' league instead, similar to the Premiership A league.

I know there isn't a massive amount of depth to most squads, but it's an opportunity to blood players and get game time for others, it doesn't have to be an exact mirror competition, but if we had the Irish, Scots and Welsh sign up and play on regular Pro14 fixture weekends it could work.

Or alternatively, the IRFU could look to get some involvement with the Premiership A tournament, it would be a good increase in standard of opposition.

We definitely need some sort of A leve competition beyond interpros I think.
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Xanthippe » November 22nd, 2017, 6:57 pm

COYBIB wrote:I'd like to see a Pro14 'A' league instead, similar to the Premiership A league.

I know there isn't a massive amount of depth to most squads, but it's an opportunity to blood players and get game time for others, it doesn't have to be an exact mirror competition, but if we had the Irish, Scots and Welsh sign up and play on regular Pro14 fixture weekends it could work.

Or alternatively, the IRFU could look to get some involvement with the Premiership A tournament, it would be a good increase in standard of opposition.

We definitely need some sort of A leve competition beyond interpros I think.


I was thinking along similar lines - I wonder if there'd be any interest in double headers (as long as they weren't at 4pm on Fridays I'd be happy to go to A game followed by 1st XV)
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Re: B&I cup to be scrapped

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 22nd, 2017, 11:30 pm

Xanthippe wrote:
COYBIB wrote:I'd like to see a Pro14 'A' league instead, similar to the Premiership A league.

I know there isn't a massive amount of depth to most squads, but it's an opportunity to blood players and get game time for others, it doesn't have to be an exact mirror competition, but if we had the Irish, Scots and Welsh sign up and play on regular Pro14 fixture weekends it could work.

Or alternatively, the IRFU could look to get some involvement with the Premiership A tournament, it would be a good increase in standard of opposition.

We definitely need some sort of A leve competition beyond interpros I think.


I was thinking along similar lines - I wonder if there'd be any interest in double headers (as long as they weren't at 4pm on Fridays I'd be happy to go to A game followed by 1st XV)


For at least five Seasons, there has been an agreement in principle to have A level Interpros, but the majority get cancelled within 10 days of the arranged dates because the Province in question can't field a team they believe is strong enough to give a reasonable contest. I don't believe we have pulled the plug on any game and the majority of cancellations against us have Ulster and Connacht. Munster and ourselves can usually field strong teams.

Trying to integrate players into Club sides has not worked for lots of reasons - Leinster Academy staff want Academy players training together; Clubs train at night not by day; Academy players want a 'professional player' lifestyle, S&C, Nutrition, Skill Development etc. among their peers, not with amateur players. Finally, the objective of the Leinster Academy staff is to develop the players they have selected on a full-time basis, not as an adjunct to a full working week.
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