Munster 2017 -2018

[TerenureJim]

Off The Ball seem to be taking a very hard line on the whole PED story, couple of podcasts got a bit nasty towards Munster and also towards the player to a certain extent, anyone think we could see Munster players circle the wagons and not engage with Newstalks for a while?

Not saying it's the right thing to do but I do get a bit sick at the fairly put on/hyped indignation that the media can come out with instead of just having a rational discussion. Personally I wanted match previews from WNR and I got another 20 mins of trial by media.

[blockhead]

I know it's a very important issue, doping could kill this sport, if giant forwards and doping somehow get linked in the public conscience, we're done.
However, this particular story has been done to death. Time to move on and concentrate on this weekend's rugby.

[Laighin Break]

They were repeating themselves quite a bit, but they did have new info to warrant another discussion - interview with Philip Browne and letter from Munster rugby. They could have saved us Keith Wood making the same points he had made the previous week and Ferris making the same points as everyone else though

[Edna Kenny]

The debate is likely to lead to a policy change so it has probably done some good. I think the whole point of the line of questioning from OTB was that it's all very well to talk about culture and zero tolerance but what does it actually mean? If that's the policy then that's fine but we are constantly fed lines about how the provinces are different from other clubs, with their history, culture, etc. You can't have it both ways. Wear the jersey with pride and honesty, the brave and the faithful etc don't mean a lot if you let your own standards slip. It was uncomfortable for a lot of journalists because they are often used to writing happy stories and rarely rock the boat, possibly due to their close relationships, being past players etc. The debate forced players to state how they felt about it.

The Times had an article today, saying there are worse cheats, "stop throwing stones". It goes on to drag up the Neil Back hand, Thierry Henry and Luke Fitzgerald now working in financial services (far worse than doping). Powerful stuff!

[wixfjord]

The debate is likely to lead to a policy change so it has probably done some good. I think the whole point of the line of questioning from OTB was that it's all very well to talk about culture and zero tolerance but what does it actually mean? If that's the policy then that's fine but we are constantly fed lines about how the provinces are different from other clubs, with their history, culture, etc. You can't have it both ways. Wear the jersey with pride and honesty, the brave and the faithful etc don't mean a lot if you let your own standards slip. It was uncomfortable for a lot of journalists because they are often used to writing happy stories and rarely rock the boat, possibly due to their close relationships, being past players etc. The debate forced players to state how they felt about it.

The Times had an article today, saying there are worse cheats, "stop throwing stones". It goes on to drag up the Neil Back hand, Thierry Henry and Luke Fitzgerald now working in financial services (far worse than doping). Powerful stuff!

Indeed, it was noticeable how little a certain Mr Thornley had to say about it over the last week or so...

[simonokeeffe]

The policy change sounded like good spin from IRFU but its fluff.
AFAIK Grobbler is only the second player* a province has signed (from overseas) that has served a doping ban

Carlo Del Fava did a 2 year ban aged 20 and I dont remember Ferris or Wood or anyone kicking up a fuss when he played for Ulster

Feels like media attacking Munster for betraying an image of cumly maidens dancing at the crossroads that they played and play a huge role in building up and othets piling on.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Off The Ball seem to be taking a very hard line on the whole PED story, couple of podcasts got a bit nasty towards Munster and also towards the player to a certain extent, anyone think we could see Munster players circle the wagons and not engage with Newstalks for a while?

Not saying it's the right thing to do but I do get a bit sick at the fairly put on/hyped indignation that the media can come out with instead of just having a rational discussion. Personally I wanted match previews from WNR and I got another 20 mins of trial by media.

I have no issue with it being discussed but I absolutely agree with this, that's exactly how it comes across to me. Gilroy (admittedly I can't stand him) seemed weirdly angry when he was asking Browne the questions and kept interrupting him, it was as if he'd been personally wronged, and the indignation just doesn't tally with the fact that the guy has already served a ban. You'd swear that he was caught doping last week and the IRFU have said there's no issue. It reminds me of the tabloids in England when Murdoch has an issue with someone and sets the dogs on them.

I'd be curious to see how Gilroy would have reacted if Browne had asked him if it was also wrong that George Hook was given a second chance at Newstalk? Or if he agrees with Irish Times journalists being banished from the station?

Again, no issue with it being discussed and there are important questions around Grobler and future signings, but their attitude stinks.

[simonokeeffe]

The moral equivalency issue I would raise over the indignation is how many times has an Irish front rower kicked and stamped on a players head and yet they were almost instantly forgiven?

[Dave Cahill]

If you build your brand or identity on Pride, Honesty, Bravery and Faithfulness, then if you sign someone who has a past that is contrary to all these pillars, then you are going to get hammered, and especially if you have a history of being particularly sanctimonious about your identity pillars.

Then Munster compounded things by deliberately "throwing the story out with the trash" i.e. releasing the news in the shadow of a far far bigger event on the other side of the world that has the rugby worlds attention fully fixed on it, nevermind the fact that the majority of the country's rugby correspondents are 20,000 km away so that a) it doesn't really attract any attention in the short term and b) when it does resurface you can claim that the story is old news and it should have been dealt with at time. Its a tried and tested strategy in business, politics and the media, even popular television programmes have done episodes about it.

Finally, in desperation, they're reduced to whataboutism as regards other players or other forms of behaviour - the Godwin's law of the social media age.

[Oldschool]

It's worth remembering that past performance is no guarantee of future performance
Put another way that was "then" this is now.
Learn from "then" but always remember hindsight is 20/20 vision.
Mary Jane used to be illegal in the US and now some states have legalised it based, presumably on what they have learned from "then"
Drugs not good is a good place to start but apply common sense and compassion where and when appropriate
Black and White approaches are counterproductive and usually to suit agendas.

[Oldschool]

If you build your brand or identity on Pride, Honesty, Bravery and Faithfulness, then if you sign someone who has a past that is contrary to all these pillars, then you are going to get hammered, and especially if you have a history of being particularly sanctimonious about your identity pillars.

Then Munster compounded things by deliberately "throwing the story out with the trash" i.e. releasing the news in the shadow of a far far bigger event on the other side of the world that has the rugby worlds attention fully fixed on it, nevermind the fact that the majority of the country's rugby correspondents are 20,000 km away so that a) it doesn't really attract any attention in the short term and b) when it does resurface you can claim that the story is old news and it should have been dealt with at time. Its a tried and tested strategy in business, politics and the media, even popular television programmes have done episodes about it.

Finally, in desperation, they're reduced to whataboutism as regards other players or other forms of behaviour - the Godwin's law of the social media age.

Perfection is something to strive for.
Mistakes happen.
If you've never made a mistake then you've never made anything.

[Peg Leg]

If you build your brand or identity on Pride, Honesty, Bravery and Faithfulness, then if you sign someone who has a past that is contrary to all these pillars, then you are going to get hammered, and especially if you have a history of being particularly sanctimonious about your identity pillars.

Then Munster compounded things by deliberately "throwing the story out with the trash" i.e. releasing the news in the shadow of a far far bigger event on the other side of the world that has the rugby worlds attention fully fixed on it, nevermind the fact that the majority of the country's rugby correspondents are 20,000 km away so that a) it doesn't really attract any attention in the short term and b) when it does resurface you can claim that the story is old news and it should have been dealt with at time. Its a tried and tested strategy in business, politics and the media, even popular television programmes have done episodes about it.

Finally, in desperation, they're reduced to whataboutism as regards other players or other forms of behaviour - the Godwin's law of the social media age.

That doesn't sound like the David Cahill I'm currently listening to on BTTV?

[Peg Leg]

Off The Ball seem to be taking a very hard line on the whole PED story, couple of podcasts got a bit nasty towards Munster and also towards the player to a certain extent, anyone think we could see Munster players circle the wagons and not engage with Newstalks for a while?

Not saying it's the right thing to do but I do get a bit sick at the fairly put on/hyped indignation that the media can come out with instead of just having a rational discussion. Personally I wanted match previews from WNR and I got another 20 mins of trial by media.

Gilroy (admittedly I can't stand him) seemed weirdly angry when he was asking Browne the questions and kept interrupting him, it was as if he'd been personally wronged, and the indignation just doesn't tally with the fact that the guy has already served a ban.

I think Gilroy takes every opportunity to put the boot in as proof he'll be a good go to guy for the meeja.

[Dave Cahill]

If you build your brand or identity on Pride, Honesty, Bravery and Faithfulness, then if you sign someone who has a past that is contrary to all these pillars, then you are going to get hammered, and especially if you have a history of being particularly sanctimonious about your identity pillars.

Then Munster compounded things by deliberately "throwing the story out with the trash" i.e. releasing the news in the shadow of a far far bigger event on the other side of the world that has the rugby worlds attention fully fixed on it, nevermind the fact that the majority of the country's rugby correspondents are 20,000 km away so that a) it doesn't really attract any attention in the short term and b) when it does resurface you can claim that the story is old news and it should have been dealt with at time. Its a tried and tested strategy in business, politics and the media, even popular television programmes have done episodes about it.

Finally, in desperation, they're reduced to whataboutism as regards other players or other forms of behaviour - the Godwin's law of the social media age.

That doesn't sound like the David Cahill I'm currently listening to on BTTV?

That guy was talking about Grobelars situation, this guy is talking about how Munster managed it

[simonokeeffe]

If you build your brand or identity on Pride, Honesty, Bravery and Faithfulness, then if you sign someone who has a past that is contrary to all these pillars, then you are going to get hammered, and especially if you have a history of being particularly sanctimonious about your identity pillars.

Then Munster compounded things by deliberately "throwing the story out with the trash" i.e. releasing the news in the shadow of a far far bigger event on the other side of the world that has the rugby worlds attention fully fixed on it, nevermind the fact that the majority of the country's rugby correspondents are 20,000 km away so that a) it doesn't really attract any attention in the short term and b) when it does resurface you can claim that the story is old news and it should have been dealt with at time. Its a tried and tested strategy in business, politics and the media, even popular television programmes have done episodes about it.

Finally, in desperation, they're reduced to whataboutism as regards other players or other forms of behaviour - the Godwin's law of the social media age.

Signing the SA (again) academy players left them exposed
There are several squalls to this storm; project/furriner hysteria, hits the Munster brand has been taking, how Munster and the media and fans created and purvey that brand, build up of less Munster rared players in the side

[artaneboy]

The debate is likely to lead to a policy change so it has probably done some good. I think the whole point of the line of questioning from OTB was that it's all very well to talk about culture and zero tolerance but what does it actually mean? If that's the policy then that's fine but we are constantly fed lines about how the provinces are different from other clubs, with their history, culture, etc. You can't have it both ways. Wear the jersey with pride and honesty, the brave and the faithful etc don't mean a lot if you let your own standards slip. It was uncomfortable for a lot of journalists because they are often used to writing happy stories and rarely rock the boat, possibly due to their close relationships, being past players etc. The debate forced players to state how they felt about it.

The Times had an article today, saying there are worse cheats, "stop throwing stones". It goes on to drag up the Neil Back hand, Thierry Henry and Luke Fitzgerald now working in financial services (far worse than doping). Powerful stuff!

Indeed, it was noticeable how little a certain Mr Thornley had to say about it over the last week or so...

Thornley has been wise. There a lot of really sloppy thinking at play here.

To bring up one point that OTB keep hammering on about as if it’s a killer argument. “How can you say there’s zero tolerance if you signed this guy.” The obvious answer is that there’s no tolerance of players abusing drugs abs they will be punished to the limits of the laws. But that doesn’t- and shouldn’t, mean that players who serves their sentence and demonstrate to your satisfaction that they are both reformed and contrite, be given another chance. To claim it should be otherwise is to retrospectively introduce an ADDITIONAL penalty for all concerned.


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[blockhead]

According to the OTB lads tonight, they have been getting dogs abuse from Munster fans. Accusing them ( and the rest of the D4/Leinster media) of being anti-Munster and if it was Leinster who had signed a doper there would not have been a peep.
Lenihan,Wood,Toland and O'Leary pretty much agree with the OTB stance and all think that he should never don the red jersey.

[blockhead]

http://www.the42.ie/roman-salanoa-hawai ... 5-Jan2018/

I'll let ye start the thread in the main page about what a disgrace this is and how damaging it is to Leinsters brand. Or more likely you'll all tell me how this is completely different.

Shad up!
Or we'll send the kids down to beat the sh*te out of you.
Again!

[Ruckedtobits]

http://www.the42.ie/roman-salanoa-hawai ... 5-Jan2018/

I'll let ye start the thread in the main page about what a disgrace this is and how damaging it is to Leinsters brand. Or more likely you'll all tell me how this is completely different.

Unlike your two recruits, this guy came to Ireland, joined a Club and is trying to make his way in the game. He is NOT a Leinster Academy player and probably won't ever be.

So @Titbit, why don't crawl back into whatever hole in the ground you came from and wise up?

[TerenureJim]

According to the OTB lads tonight, they have been getting dogs abuse from Munster fans. Accusing them ( and the rest of the D4/Leinster media) of being anti-Munster and if it was Leinster who had signed a doper there would not have been a peep.
Lenihan,Wood,Toland and O'Leary pretty much agree with the OTB stance and all think that he should never don the red jersey.

OTB probably deserve a bit of a kicking, instead of rational discussion they ratcheted up the indignation like they were dealing with pro cycling, this from a station who are giving George Hook a second chance?

Hey Ger how come you don't talk to Gerry anymore? How come you don't talk to any journo from the IT? What's that Ger? Silence is deafening, guess your towing that party line you accused the Munster players and management of, hmm funny how that goes in the professional world.....