Ulster 2018-2019

[rooster]

Ulster have been especially bad at developing a homegrown 9.

No, they haven't. They've simply been worse than Munster, the same as we have been. No homegrown Leinster scrumhalf has gone to a World Cup in the professional era, for example.

Current Professional 9's from Ulster:

Michael Heaney
Jonny Stewart

Current Professional 9's from Leinster:

John Cooney
James Hart
Luke McGrath
Dave Shanahan
Conor McKeon
Nick McCarthy
Hugh O'Sullivan
Patrick Patterson

And none of those you have named are really knocking on International standard either except Cooney

[mildlyinterested]

And none of those you have named are really knocking on International standard either.

Cooney and McGrath are clearly capable of playing international rugby.

[Dave Cahill]

Claiming James Hart only reinforces my point - he never even made the sub-academy, so to attempt to claim him as a homegrown 9 developed by Leinster is grasping at the flimsiest of straws. Leinster had the square root of sweet fanny adams to do with him being a professional.

[Lar]

Because you're dedendent on imports at 9? E.G. Boss, Pienaar, Cooney. Other than Tall Paul, who else have had at 9?

Isn't everyone? The production rate of international standard scrumhalves at Irish provinces is about 1 every 12-15 years or so. And if that guy gets injured we're in trouble. We simply haven't had a clue how to bring through players in this position the way we need them. The success of the Irish provinces since the game went professional has actually mitigated against scrum halves. We need guys who, at 21, are ready for knockout ECC/International rugby. We don't have time for late, or later, developers like Reddan or Cooney - so we buy in. Every province does it. We've had Easterby, Reddan, Boss, JGP. Ulster have had the guys you named. Connacht have Marmion, Cooney, Keane et al. Munster have been relatively lucky with their scrumhalves in terms of injury - Stringer lasted over a decade and backed up Murray though they lost O'Leary, but they've still had to bring in guys like Hart, Toma, Morland or Lloyd to backfill.

Then if you do have a one or a couple of international standard scrum halves, it actually mitigates against you producing any more, as they become blockers. No amount of gametime would turn a Marshall, Williams or O'Donaghue into an international standard scrum half, but for guys a level above that, its useful. However, if you have an international scrum half or even worse in terms of developing younger players, the international bench scrum half, then the amount of time on the pitch the younger guys will get is reduced. National coaches are, by nature, conservative selectors. They know who their guys are and they will want them ready for their team, and they aren''t going to sacrifice that to develop players at provincial level. The reason Cooney, for example, had to leave Leinster (and Connacht) had very little to do with their provincial coaches, and everything to do with the national coach wanting Marmion, Reddan and Boss on the pitch as much as possible in case they were needed by Ireland thus limiting their opportunities.

More fundamentally though, we don't even know what we want from a scrum half. To me Conor Murray is the best scrum half in the world, and the best Ireland has produced since the early 80s (when my memories of watching rugby start). He does everything well. He has a great pass, superb kicker, brilliant decision maker, manages both his pack and his back line better than anyone else in the world, tackles like a back row forward, breaks like a centre. He ticks every box imaginable. Guys like that are flukes in a way though, you don't get many of them in a generation in a hemisphere, never mind in a country. For a decade we had Stringer at scrumhalf, great pass, great game manager, mediocre kicker, mediocre tackler, mediocre break. But because he was the best we had at the things that would best serve that team, then he became the gold standard. It didn't matter if a scrum half was far better in the areas where Stringer was weak, if he was weaker in the areas where Stringer was strong, then he was perceived to be a poor scrum half. It was the same with Mick Bradley, only in reverse. If Peter Stringer at his absolute peak had come through in 85 or 86, he wouldn't get next nor near the Irish team. The great thing about Conor Murray is that, due to his all round excellence, he has hit the reset button on what we consider a scrum half to be.

Good post but I'd argue that when he came through into the international team (2011 RWC iirc) Conor Murray had a poor pass and his box kicking was very inconsistent. His strength and tackling, break and speed of thought were what got him his place. His pass per se wasn't awful but his ability to pass quickly was non-existent, he always took a step or two more than he should have or needed to. But his passing and kicking have improved immeasurably in the last few seasons and I agree he is now probably the best 9 in the world.

[mildlyinterested]

Claiming James Hart only reinforces my point - he never even made the sub-academy, so to attempt to claim him as a homegrown 9 developed by Leinster is grasping at the flimsiest of straws. Leinster had the square root of sweet fanny adams to do with him being a professional.

Ignore non leinster academy 9's then.. Leinster still doing a better job than Ulster.

[rooster]

Claiming James Hart only reinforces my point - he never even made the sub-academy, so to attempt to claim him as a homegrown 9 developed by Leinster is grasping at the flimsiest of straws. Leinster had the square root of sweet fanny adams to do with him being a professional.

Ignore non leinster academy 9's then.. Leinster still doing a better job than Ulster.

Ignore where any of them come from and there is an indisputable fact that there is a severe scarcity of Irish 9's and you can add 10's to that list as well, yes a lot of promise in some but that's about it.

[mildlyinterested]

Claiming James Hart only reinforces my point - he never even made the sub-academy, so to attempt to claim him as a homegrown 9 developed by Leinster is grasping at the flimsiest of straws. Leinster had the square root of sweet fanny adams to do with him being a professional.

Ignore non leinster academy 9's then.. Leinster still doing a better job than Ulster.

Ignore where any of them come from and there is an indisputable fact that there is a severe scarcity of Irish 9's and you can add 10's to that list as well, yes a lot of promise in some but that's about it.

Because only 1 province has been consistently producing 9 and 10's of professional quality this decade.

[Jackie Brown]

Ignore non leinster academy 9's then.. Leinster still doing a better job than Ulster.

Ignore where any of them come from and there is an indisputable fact that there is a severe scarcity of Irish 9's and you can add 10's to that list as well, yes a lot of promise in some but that's about it.

Because only 1 province has been consistently producing 9 and 10's of professional quality this decade.

You looking for a wee pat on the back?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[tomthefan]

We are not worthy

[rooster]

We are not worthy

What 10's have you produced in the last decade ?

[tomthefan]

We are not worthy

What 10's have you produced in the last decade ?

I wasn't having a go at Ulster, my comment was meant for mildly
But since you ask, JJ promised lot, Johnny Holland showed great promise in his cameo of a career while we still hold out hopes for Bill Johnston
if injuries allow.

[Dave Cahill]

Great game of rugby in Bloem going on, 29 - 25 currently to Cheetahs, 4 tries to 3 with 10 left

[Dave Cahill]

Finished 39 - 39, Speight scores with the clock in the red and Burns gets the conversion to get the draw - cracker of a game - Ulster will be happy enough with the 3 match points considering they lost Gilroy and Addison in the hour before kickoff and Herbst almost immediately the game started and reidy with 30 gone.

[Ruckedtobits]

Finished 39 - 39, Speight scores with the clock in the red and Burns gets the conversion to get the draw - cracker of a game - Ulster will be happy enough with the 3 match points considering they lost Gilroy and Addison in the hour before kickoff and Herbst almost immediately the game started and reidy with 30 gone.

Only saw the first four tries but read the match report and consider that a great result for Ulster, considering selection and injuries in game. If they've no long-term injuries, that's been a very useful trip to Africa.

[Aird]

When you consider injuries before they set off for S. Africa ,the need to put out an A team, the late withdrawal of Gilroy and Addison, the loss of Herbst and Reidy to injury,together with playing at altitude after a 5 day turnaround then the 3pts is a good result. My only wish is that they could cut out the last second dramas as it playing havoc with my nerves.
Who would have reckoned that Ulster would go the first four leagues without defeat. What odds could you have got on that before. The season started.
McFarland said that he wanted them to fight for every inch well he has got his wish.

[Aird]

When you consider injuries before they set off for S. Africa ,the need to put out an A team, the late withdrawal of Gilroy and Addison, the loss of Herbst and Reidy to injury,together with playing at altitude after a 5 day turnaround then the 3pts is a good result. My only wish is that they could cut out the last second dramas as it playing havoc with my nerves.
Who would have reckoned that Ulster would go the first four leagues without defeat. What odds could you have got on that before. The season started.
McFarland said that he wanted them to fight for every inch well he has got his wish.

[blockhead]

When you consider injuries before they set off for S. Africa ,the need to put out an A team, the late withdrawal of Gilroy and Addison, the loss of Herbst and Reidy to injury,together with playing at altitude after a 5 day turnaround then the 3pts is a good result. My only wish is that they could cut out the last second dramas as it playing havoc with my nerves.
Who would have reckoned that Ulster would go the first four leagues without defeat. What odds could you have got on that before. The season started.
McFarland said that he wanted them to fight for every inch well he has got his wish.

Yep, considering all of that, it was a very good trip to SA for the Ulster boys. The players are giving McFarland a lot of breathing space, he must be delighted.

[blockhead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kYeBj0Z68c
Highlights of what was very exciting game.

[rooster]

I'm convinced they are doing some sort of heart attack trial on us all with this last minute stuff.

[blockhead]

The only unbeaten team left in the Pro14 this season, funny if they could keep it going for another week.