Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby olaf the fat » January 14th, 2020, 1:06 pm

tomthefan wrote:Strength in depth did for us imo, we didn't have good enough replacements. Still though, if that game had been in Limerick we'd have won. No criticism of wayne Barnes implied there but even the best referees cant help but give the home team the benefit of the doubt more often than not. Happy to give this coaching team a couple of more years. Enjoy the schadenfreude while it lasts


Fair enough take on it.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Dave Cahill » January 14th, 2020, 1:33 pm

Yeah, there has been huge churn in the Munster backroom over the last 5 or 6 years - that kind of change simply isn't conducive to high levels of performance. A period of stability is needed.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » January 14th, 2020, 2:16 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:Yeah, there has been huge churn in the Munster backroom over the last 5 or 6 years - that kind of change simply isn't conducive to high levels of performance. A period of stability is needed.

The right kind of stability is needed.
Perhaps it's time for Munster to target the Pro14 for a couple of seasons and leave the heavy lifting in the HCC to Leinster and Ulster. If they got a doable pool draw then they could take it on.
Basically rebuild with proper foundations.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby joooooe » January 14th, 2020, 2:54 pm

Oldschool wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Yeah, there has been huge churn in the Munster backroom over the last 5 or 6 years - that kind of change simply isn't conducive to high levels of performance. A period of stability is needed.

The right kind of stability is needed.
Perhaps it's time for Munster to target the Pro14 for a couple of seasons and leave the heavy lifting in the HCC to Leinster and Ulster. If they got a doable pool draw then they could take it on.
Basically rebuild with proper foundations.


We effectively did this in 2015/16, though more by accident than design I think. After losing all the pre-Christmas Euro games we went all in in the league and made the final.

Before this, and perhaps similar to Munster now, we had a coach who was reluctant to trust youth, instead picking the best players to perform on the day every time. Zane Kirchner, anyone? I think a lot of people look back on that Euro campaign as sowing the seeds for 2017 (league semi and Euro semi), 2018 (double) and 2019 (Euro final and league champs).
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby dropkick » January 14th, 2020, 4:13 pm

ChrisUppy wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:Sam Larner
@SamLStandsUp
·
Jan 9
Not quite. Defence includes tackles, turnovers, lineout steals, and removes points for missed tackles. SOme are weighted.
Attack is metres made, tries, try assists, passes, offloads etc again some are weighted.

What's being measures is Sam's biases. That's all, he's multiplied his biases by a bumch of player stats.

Exactly, as soon as you add some mysterious weighting then those stats become opinion.

JvDF made more carries, more meters, more clean breaks and beat more defenders over the course of the tournament than POM (not even accounting for the fact that VdF didn't feature vs. Russia where as POM played in all with one sub appearance) yet POM lands higher on the attack "score"... Similarly in defence he made more tackles, misses fewer tackles, conceded fewer penalties...



Lies, damned lies and statistics. POM has always had stats used against him so I thought I'd post that. I presume turnovers scored highly in Sam Lerners algorithm. 1 turnover could be worth a team making numerous fewer tackles and that's only tackles.


POM looks like he could do with a break. Murray the same and Furlong doesn't look like the Furlong of 2018. Might be no coincidence that they were on the lions tour 2 years ago. I wouldn't mind seeing plenty of rotation in the 6N.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby paddyor » January 14th, 2020, 5:03 pm

Stats are lies, except this stat which I will now use to prove my theory! You can make a similar argument re not tackles being created equally. They can shift momentum, 3-4 big ones in succession can prompt a kick(turnover) or they can pressure a knock on.

The thing is, absent his few big moments a game, you don't get much else from POM. Y The opportunity for pilfering ball is vastly reduced now to what it was so it's not even like teams have to commit that much to keeping him off their ball. So you don't even get the secondary benefit of him sucking in attackers.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2020, 5:08 pm

Problem with that mysterious weighting is that it allows a player to be MVP if he's being carried and does a couple of high profile things. They also won't be missing many tackles because they won't be making many. Stats and economics are always about using multipliers to compare apples to oranges to jackfruit but you need to publish those and the reasons for them or they are merely applying your bias to data.

O'Mahony brings what he does to the table: principally defensive lineout and depending on what the ref is playing that day regarding elbows on the ground he's a real poach threat too. He defends out on the wing and he has great hands (but doesn't get to use them as much as you'd like but instead carries ineffectually). He wasn't particularly bad in the WC though the notion that he was top three is utterly laughable.

I agree the lions there do look a bit jaded, though Murray's malaise seems a bit deeper.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby ChrisUppy » January 17th, 2020, 11:20 am

Munster supposedly to sign Matt Gallagher from Saracens - IQ'd English back three player.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 17th, 2020, 1:34 pm

15. Mike Haley,14. Andrew Conway,13. Chris Farrell,12. Rory Scannell,11. Calvin Nash,10. JJ Hanrahan,9. Conor Murray,1. Dave Kilcoyne,
2. Niall Scannell,3. Stephen Archer,4. Fineen Wycherley,5. Billy Holland,6. Peter O'Mahony (c),7. Jack O'Donoghue,8. CJ Stander.
Replacements:
16. Kevin O'Byrne,17. Jeremy Loughman,18. John Ryan,19. Arno Botha,20. Jack O'Sullivan,21. Craig Casey,22. Ben Healy,23. Dan Goggin,

No McCarthy again, is he injured or did he make a really dumb career move.

No Earls, didn't hear of him being injured.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby cormac » January 17th, 2020, 1:58 pm

Earls has a knee injury
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Dave Cahill » January 17th, 2020, 1:59 pm

blockhead wrote:15. Mike Haley,14. Andrew Conway,13. Chris Farrell,12. Rory Scannell,11. Calvin Nash,10. JJ Hanrahan,9. Conor Murray,1. Dave Kilcoyne,
2. Niall Scannell,3. Stephen Archer,4. Fineen Wycherley,5. Billy Holland,6. Peter O'Mahony (c),7. Jack O'Donoghue,8. CJ Stander.
Replacements:
16. Kevin O'Byrne,17. Jeremy Loughman,18. John Ryan,19. Arno Botha,20. Jack O'Sullivan,21. Craig Casey,22. Ben Healy,23. Dan Goggin,

No McCarthy again, is he injured or did he make a really dumb career move.

No Earls, didn't hear of him being injured.
Earls picked up a "minor knee injury" according to Munster Rugby
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby wixfjord » January 17th, 2020, 2:34 pm

15. Dan Evans
14. Hanno Dirksen
13. George North
12. Scott Williams
11. Luke Morgan
10. Luke Price
9. Shaun Venter

1.Nicky Smith
2. Scott Otten
3. Ma'afu Fia
4. Bradley Davies
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Dan Baker

Replacements
16. Sam Parry
17. Darryl Marfo
18. Gheorghe Gajion
19. Lloyd Ashley
20. Olly Cracknell
21. Sam Cross
22. Reuben Morgan-Williams
23. Cai Evans

On paper, that Ospreys team doesn't look bad, which makes it all the more ridiculous how sh!t they are.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Peg Leg » January 17th, 2020, 2:38 pm

wixfjord wrote:15. Dan Evans
14. Hanno Dirksen
13. George North
12. Scott Williams
11. Luke Morgan
10. Luke Price
9. Shaun Venter

1.Nicky Smith
2. Scott Otten
3. Ma'afu Fia
4. Bradley Davies
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Dan Baker

Replacements
16. Sam Parry
17. Darryl Marfo
18. Gheorghe Gajion
19. Lloyd Ashley
20. Olly Cracknell
21. Sam Cross
22. Reuben Morgan-Williams
23. Cai Evans

On paper, that Ospreys team doesn't look bad, which makes it all the more ridiculous how sh!t they are.

:lol:
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » January 17th, 2020, 3:02 pm

Peg Leg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:15. Dan Evans
14. Hanno Dirksen
13. George North
12. Scott Williams
11. Luke Morgan
10. Luke Price
9. Shaun Venter

1.Nicky Smith
2. Scott Otten
3. Ma'afu Fia
4. Bradley Davies
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Dan Baker

Replacements
16. Sam Parry
17. Darryl Marfo
18. Gheorghe Gajion
19. Lloyd Ashley
20. Olly Cracknell
21. Sam Cross
22. Reuben Morgan-Williams
23. Cai Evans

On paper, that Ospreys team doesn't look bad, which makes it all the more ridiculous how sh!t they are.

:lol:

Last game before the 6Ns may add a bit of spice to this one.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby ronk » January 17th, 2020, 8:38 pm

blockhead wrote:15. Mike Haley,14. Andrew Conway,13. Chris Farrell,12. Rory Scannell,11. Calvin Nash,10. JJ Hanrahan,9. Conor Murray,1. Dave Kilcoyne,
2. Niall Scannell,3. Stephen Archer,4. Fineen Wycherley,5. Billy Holland,6. Peter O'Mahony (c),7. Jack O'Donoghue,8. CJ Stander.
Replacements:
16. Kevin O'Byrne,17. Jeremy Loughman,18. John Ryan,19. Arno Botha,20. Jack O'Sullivan,21. Craig Casey,22. Ben Healy,23. Dan Goggin,

No McCarthy again, is he injured or did he make a really dumb career move.

No Earls, didn't hear of him being injured.



The latter, McCarthy is selected for the As.

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 17th, 2020, 9:24 pm

New Munster CEO Ian Flanagan in the Cork Examiner.
“Rugby is in a very positive space at the moment,” the Munster CEO told the Irish Examiner.

“The World Cup was very positive for rugby on a global level and Munster have global ambitions. We want to be speaking to Irish fans all over the world and Munster fans in particular and if there’s a new rugby fan, whether they’re in China, India, or wherever, we want Munster to be one of the clubs that they look at and say, ‘you know what? I love what that club stands for’.”

Flanagan sees parallels with football 20 years ago, having worked as a consultant to Barcelona when the Catalan club was looking to emerge from the shadow of Real Madrid and expand their brand into Asia.

“I did some work with Barcelona years ago and they were second-best for a long time before they won because Real Madrid had all the natural advantages. They were the government club, they were in the capital, they had lots of money. You can see the similarities. (Thats a dig at us for sure)

“Real had a debt of €200m, the Spanish government bought their training ground for €200m and gave them a new one and I remember the guys I worked with at Barcelona were saying ‘how can we compete with this? We’ll never be able to compete’.

“It took time. People won’t remember that Barcelona were a second-rate brand and no one was interested in going there if you were serious about winning or being the best. It was only when Barcelona began to harness what they had that was positive and start to talk to the world about it and that independent identity, it had a real authenticity to it.

“People are really bored around the world with that rich club that throws money at stuff, the Yankees, the Patriots, Real Madrid, it’s not much of a story anymore. But people woke up to Barcelona on a global level when they started to talk about what they did have. They had the fanbase, the passion, they were almost a country within a country and we have some elements of that too, we really do.

“We need to get better about communicating our story and telling it to the world because people love that and it crosses language barriers, religious barriers, national barriers.

“People understand what it means to be an underdog but to have a realness, a passion, an authenticity, and trust me, there’s a lot of clubs that have to try hard to manufacture this.

“You look at Racing on the weekend, all of that experience, brilliant but manufactured. They’re trying to find fans, they’re trying to get first-generation fans. We have so many positives and I want to accentuate the positive and tell that to the world. That’s where we’re heading.”
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby OTT » January 17th, 2020, 10:40 pm

What age is Ian Flanagan?

Does he not remember Johan Cruyff’s brilliant team of the early 90’s. Zubizerretta, Stoichkov, Laudrup, Romario, Koeman, Salinas, Bakero. Sure Barcelona have had droughts like every team but Flanagan has a massive opinion of himself if he thinks he reinvented the wheel, Barcelona have been winning championships for 100 years.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby SoupyNorman » January 17th, 2020, 10:42 pm

Oh my God. That Flanagan piece is full of misinformed hogwash and potentially displaying a lack of on the field ambition. With a desire to be an underdog rather than a team driven by success and striving for dominance.
I certainlyy don't think Barcelona can he viewed as much of an underdog over the past 20 years. Also it would be nice if they did throw more money around for many of the legitimate debts they owe. Leaving other clubs both big and small in the lurch with transfer payments for high-profile names or young developed talent that is being stockpiled.
Maybe the Yankees have thrown money at their success; but the New England Patriots; who are regularly accused of several things; well I have never heard of them accused of throwing money with being subject to a salary cap in line with other teams. And their continued success disadvantages them strengthening through lower draft picks.

The main thing to entice a market is to be succesful. Which is why Barcelona is much more popular than an Athletic Bilbao.

And definitely agree with the implication of the bolded piece. Don't think this attitude if filters down into the organisation is in the best interest of Munster Rugby.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Oldschool » January 17th, 2020, 10:52 pm

blockhead wrote:New Munster CEO Ian Flanagan in the Cork Examiner.
“Rugby is in a very positive space at the moment,” the Munster CEO told the Irish Examiner.

“The World Cup was very positive for rugby on a global level and Munster have global ambitions. We want to be speaking to Irish fans all over the world and Munster fans in particular and if there’s a new rugby fan, whether they’re in China, India, or wherever, we want Munster to be one of the clubs that they look at and say, ‘you know what? I love what that club stands for’.”

Flanagan sees parallels with football 20 years ago, having worked as a consultant to Barcelona when the Catalan club was looking to emerge from the shadow of Real Madrid and expand their brand into Asia.

“I did some work with Barcelona years ago and they were second-best for a long time before they won because Real Madrid had all the natural advantages. They were the government club, they were in the capital, they had lots of money. You can see the similarities. (Thats a dig at us for sure)

“Real had a debt of €200m, the Spanish government bought their training ground for €200m and gave them a new one and I remember the guys I worked with at Barcelona were saying ‘how can we compete with this? We’ll never be able to compete’.

“It took time. People won’t remember that Barcelona were a second-rate brand and no one was interested in going there if you were serious about winning or being the best. It was only when Barcelona began to harness what they had that was positive and start to talk to the world about it and that independent identity, it had a real authenticity to it.

“People are really bored around the world with that rich club that throws money at stuff, the Yankees, the Patriots, Real Madrid, it’s not much of a story anymore. But people woke up to Barcelona on a global level when they started to talk about what they did have. They had the fanbase, the passion, they were almost a country within a country and we have some elements of that too, we really do.

“We need to get better about communicating our story and telling it to the world because people love that and it crosses language barriers, religious barriers, national barriers.

“People understand what it means to be an underdog but to have a realness, a passion, an authenticity, and trust me, there’s a lot of clubs that have to try hard to manufacture this.

“You look at Racing on the weekend, all of that experience, brilliant but manufactured. They’re trying to find fans, they’re trying to get first-generation fans. We have so many positives and I want to accentuate the positive and tell that to the world. That’s where we’re heading.”

He forgot the bit about eliminating the negatives.
Too much bitterness is a negative, he could start with that.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby blockhead » January 18th, 2020, 8:35 pm

Time to concentrate on the Pro14 now.
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