Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Avenger » May 22nd, 2020, 11:49 am

munster#1 wrote:Again, when you say Munster in particular don’t want to put in the ground work, apart from Leinster, who else are you comparing them to? And what facts are you basing this on?


Munster have shown in the recent past (a decade ago) that they can produce top quality players.
Its been pointed out by other posters that there is a sense of entitlement to be good (perhaps because of that great team).
I've heard for years now that they are fixing the academy supply - not yet proven to be successful or complete but that's a waiting game for now.
I know its tabloid bollix but there was an article on Sports Joe the other day speculating about the possible Munster team for next season (and to be honest the team was bollix because they had Salanoa at TH) but there was 5 Munster lads in that team and if that were to come to pass that isn't good enough IMO... but that's only my opinion.

Look at Lam when he came to Connacht. He took their identity and built on that. I don't think van Graan is doing that at Munster but I don't think he's the same level of coach that say his predecessor was.

Ulster also have a lot of non-native (for want of a better phrase) but I think they have taken some lads out of schools and put them in their academy rather than taking guys after they have gone through the Leinster academy. I'd prefer this approach... Leinster take in less than 10 player to their academy every year so there are lots of quality young lads that don't go in and are available to whoever wants them.

You obviously don't really care about the make up of the squad and that's fair enough. No one is starting a war here... just a small difference of opinion about something that isn't really that big a deal.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Avenger » May 22nd, 2020, 12:03 pm

Actually thinking about it I suppose the "Munster in particular" is unfair and that's because I am holding them to a higher standard than the other two because I expect more from them.
This may not be fair but that's my perception.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 22nd, 2020, 12:04 pm

Avenger wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Again, when you say Munster in particular don’t want to put in the ground work, apart from Leinster, who else are you comparing them to? And what facts are you basing this on?


Munster have shown in the recent past (a decade ago) that they can produce top quality players.
Its been pointed out by other posters that there is a sense of entitlement to be good (perhaps because of that great team).
I've heard for years now that they are fixing the academy supply - not yet proven to be successful or complete but that's a waiting game for now.
I know its tabloid bollix but there was an article on Sports Joe the other day speculating about the possible Munster team for next season (and to be honest the team was bollix because they had Salanoa at TH) but there was 5 Munster lads in that team and if that were to come to pass that isn't good enough IMO... but that's only my opinion.

Look at Lam when he came to Connacht. He took their identity and built on that. I don't think van Graan is doing that at Munster but I don't think he's the same level of coach that say his predecessor was.

Ulster also have a lot of non-native (for want of a better phrase) but I think they have taken some lads out of schools and put them in their academy rather than taking guys after they have gone through the Leinster academy. I'd prefer this approach... Leinster take in less than 10 player to their academy every year so there are lots of quality young lads that don't go in and are available to whoever wants them.

You obviously don't really care about the make up of the squad and that's fair enough. No one is starting a war here... just a small difference of opinion about something that isn't really that big a deal.


I think you have made your point well, even if unintentionally.
Munster are in the same boat as 3/4 of the provinces.

Even when Lam was around Connacht we’re far from a homegrown team, and since it has gotten even worse.
Ulster have fielded teams with with very small numbers of homegrown players, and as you have said are poaching players for their academy along with players for their first team.

Munster are no different to Ulster or Connacht, just slightly better.
Unfortunately this seems to have become the new norm.
There are so many factors at play here, it would be too simple to just blame one thing.
It is a systemic problem when 3/4 teams are not developing enough players to field homegrown teams.
It is also a consequence of this same system that we have 4 competitive provinces, and a more competitive national team.

You also agree that Munster are trying to fix their academy for years now, this is not an indication of a team that does not care about developing their own players, it just means that to date, what they have done has not worked, but we are seeing some shoots if you look at some of the players to play under 20s for Ireland lately.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Avenger » May 22nd, 2020, 12:08 pm

munster#1 wrote:we are seeing some shoots if you look at some of the players to play under 20s for Ireland lately.


Thats very fair. Some very promising lads in that team.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 22nd, 2020, 12:28 pm

Avenger wrote:
munster#1 wrote:we are seeing some shoots if you look at some of the players to play under 20s for Ireland lately.


Thats very fair. Some very promising lads in that team.

If only Ahern, Crowley and Casey (who Leinster tried to poach) make it, that will be a good return.

Edit: obviously, hopefully more than that break through, but looking at the potential of these 3, then we may have 3 future stars.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Keith » May 22nd, 2020, 4:11 pm

timothydec77 wrote:Players transfers do water down the teams identity.

Part of the reason people supported the provinces is because the players mostly came from the communities.

I don't think many people from Cork would spend 2 or more hours each way to support a Munster team made up of 10 Leinster academy players.

Conversally though when a player from the outside such as Nacewa and Stander, comes in and completely buys into the team, it can enhance the identity. Well at least for me anyway.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 22nd, 2020, 4:23 pm

Keith wrote:
timothydec77 wrote:Players transfers do water down the teams identity.

Part of the reason people supported the provinces is because the players mostly came from the communities.

I don't think many people from Cork would spend 2 or more hours each way to support a Munster team made up of 10 Leinster academy players.

Conversally though when a player from the outside such as Nacewa and Stander, comes in and completely buys into the team, it can enhance the identity. Well at least for me anyway.

There are definitely players who become more local than the local lads themselves, both through the way they play, and their actions towards the fans.

From a Munster perspective, the likes of Langford, Williams, Dougie, Mafi, Tipoki, Jones, CJ, Conway and Payne to name a few we’re/are Munster people.
Having met each of them, you could tell that they were not just there for a pay check, they definitely cared about the club and the fans.

I have met a few others that I would not say the same about, but won’t be naming them online.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby timothydec77 » May 22nd, 2020, 4:43 pm

Keith wrote:
timothydec77 wrote:Players transfers do water down the teams identity.

Part of the reason people supported the provinces is because the players mostly came from the communities.

I don't think many people from Cork would spend 2 or more hours each way to support a Munster team made up of 10 Leinster academy players.

Conversally though when a player from the outside such as Nacewa and Stander, comes in and completely buys into the team, it can enhance the identity. Well at least for me anyway.


A lot of these players bought into the culture that was brought into the Professional Rugby team by the former amateur players.

For most of us Munster fans the "Province" "Franchise" "Club" is highly tied up with the local Club and Schools game.

Outside players are like salt. A little bit enhances the flavour too much destroys it.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby neiliog93 » May 22nd, 2020, 11:10 pm

Slightly disingenuous of you to compare Leinster's 2008/09 team with Munster's today - if Munster were in a final, considerably less than 17/22 or 18/23 would be homegrown, and the first time matters more than the wider squad (although both matter).

Also, your stats are off - Leinster's senior squad of 32 for the 2008/09 season had 32 players, 10 of whom originated from outside Leinster. That is not 'more than one-third', in fact it's well under a third...
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 23rd, 2020, 12:13 am

neiliog93 wrote:Slightly disingenuous of you to compare Leinster's 2008/09 team with Munster's today - if Munster were in a final, considerably less than 17/22 or 18/23 would be homegrown, and the first time matters more than the wider squad (although both matter).

Also, your stats are off - Leinster's senior squad of 32 for the 2008/09 season had 32 players, 10 of whom originated from outside Leinster. That is not 'more than one-third', in fact it's well under a third...

Hard to say how many local Munster players would be in a match day squad were Munster to qualify for a final.
Like with Leinster in 2009, it would come down to injuries.
But you are right, it would likely be under 18.

What I found is that Leinster announced a 34 man squad for the 08/09 season and 12 of those were either signings from other provinces or abroad.

Also mathematically speaking 10 is not well under 1/3 of 32, it is actually only .67 of a player less.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Xanthippe » May 24th, 2020, 12:25 am

During the 2008/09 season Leinster used a total of 31 players in their 9 Heineken Cup games - here’s the breakdown the origin of the players and the % of the squad they made up along with the number of minutes played and the % of the H-Cup they were responsible for:

Leinster - 19 players (61%) - 6785 minutes (63%)
Ireland - 4 players (13%) - 800 minutes (7%) - Fogarty, Hogan, Keogh, Mal
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%) - Elsom, Whitaker, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa, van der Linde, Holwell, leRoux




Edit: Before anyone tells me the minutes don’t add up to 10,800 - we had 6 yellow cards from 5 players for a total of 60 minutes.
(Contepomi x 2, O’Kelly, Kearney, Healy, Wright)
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Xanthippe » May 24th, 2020, 12:54 am

neiliog93 wrote:Slightly disingenuous of you to compare Leinster's 2008/09 team with Munster's today - if Munster were in a final, considerably less than 17/22 or 18/23 would be homegrown, and the first time matters more than the wider squad (although both matter).

Also, your stats are off - Leinster's senior squad of 32 for the 2008/09 season had 32 players, 10 of whom originated from outside Leinster. That is not 'more than one-third', in fact it's well under a third...


To be fair, according to the Leinster website the 2008/09 squad had 35 players - 23 from Leinster and 12 from outside. We also brought in Ollie leRoux and David Holwell for the H-Cup but neither are shown on the squad page
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby neiliog93 » May 24th, 2020, 2:17 am

I didn't count either le Roux or Holwell as they temporary signings who played a game or two. Also, I counted Mal as a Leinster-origin player - he went to school in Templeogue and college in Trinity, even if he was born in England.

The squad I used is here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Leinster_Rugby_season

Leinster: 22 (Jackman, Healy, McCormack, Cullen, O'Kelly, Toner, Jennings, McLaughlin, S.O'Brien, Heaslip, Keane, O'Donohoe, Sexton, D'Arcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Si.Keogh, Dempsey, R.Kearney, Jones).

Other Irish (all Munster): 3 (Fogarty, Hogan, St.Keogh).

Non-Irish: 7 (van der Linde, Wright, Jowitt, Elsom, Whitaker, Contepomi, Naceewa).
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Xanthippe » May 24th, 2020, 2:39 am

neiliog93 wrote:I didn't count either le Roux or Holwell as they temporary signings who played a game or two. Also, I counted Mal as a Leinster-origin player - he went to school in Templeogue and college in Trinity, even if he was born in England.

The squad I used is here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Leinster_Rugby_season

Leinster: 22 (Jackman, Healy, McCormack, Cullen, O'Kelly, Toner, Jennings, McLaughlin, S.O'Brien, Heaslip, Keane, O'Donohoe, Sexton, D'Arcy, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Si.Keogh, Dempsey, R.Kearney, Jones).

Other Irish (all Munster): 3 (Fogarty, Hogan, St.Keogh).

Non-Irish: 7 (van der Linde, Wright, Jowitt, Elsom, Whitaker, Contepomi, Naceewa).


Leinster’s squad list does not include O’Donohoe but does have Brian Blaney, Gary Brown, Eoin O’Malley and Stephen Knoop in addition to those you listed

Edit: Just checked and Felix Jones and Eoin O’Malley didn’t actually get any game time in the 08/09 season
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby ronk » May 24th, 2020, 9:09 am

Xanthippe wrote:During the 2008/09 season Leinster used a total of 31 players in their 9 Heineken Cup games - here’s the breakdown the origin of the players and the % of the squad they made up along with the number of minutes played and the % of the H-Cup they were responsible for:

Leinster - 19 players (61%) - 6785 minutes (63%)
Ireland - 4 players (13%) - 800 minutes (7%) - Fogarty, Hogan, Keogh, Mal
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%) - Elsom, Whitaker, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa, van der Linde, Holwell, leRoux




Edit: Before anyone tells me the minutes don’t add up to 10,800 - we had 6 yellow cards from 5 players for a total of 60 minutes.
(Contepomi x 2, O’Kelly, Kearney, Healy, Wright)


Mal?
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby ronk » May 24th, 2020, 9:25 am

Leinster were still in transition towards using the academy in 2009.

Wright and Nacewa stayed on for significant runs but most of the rest finished up soon after that. It was also before the IQ restrictions came in.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 24th, 2020, 12:12 pm

Xanthippe wrote:During the 2008/09 season Leinster used a total of 31 players in their 9 Heineken Cup games - here’s the breakdown the origin of the players and the % of the squad they made up along with the number of minutes played and the % of the H-Cup they were responsible for:

Leinster - 19 players (61%) - 6785 minutes (63%)
Ireland - 4 players (13%) - 800 minutes (7%) - Fogarty, Hogan, Keogh, Mal
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%) - Elsom, Whitaker, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa, van der Linde, Holwell, leRoux




Edit: Before anyone tells me the minutes don’t add up to 10,800 - we had 6 yellow cards from 5 players for a total of 60 minutes.
(Contepomi x 2, O’Kelly, Kearney, Healy, Wright)


In addition to those I found that the extended Leinster squad contained knoop and jowitt.
I had it in my head that Gomez was there during the 08/09 season, but not sure?

I had considered Mal as a Leinster player but Keane as a Connacht player because he started his career there, and played a fair few games/years before making his first appearance for Leinster.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby Xanthippe » May 24th, 2020, 1:29 pm

ronk wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:During the 2008/09 season Leinster used a total of 31 players in their 9 Heineken Cup games - here’s the breakdown the origin of the players and the % of the squad they made up along with the number of minutes played and the % of the H-Cup they were responsible for:

Leinster - 19 players (61%) - 6785 minutes (63%)
Ireland - 4 players (13%) - 800 minutes (7%) - Fogarty, Hogan, Keogh, Mal
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%) - Elsom, Whitaker, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa, van der Linde, Holwell, leRoux




Edit: Before anyone tells me the minutes don’t add up to 10,800 - we had 6 yellow cards from 5 players for a total of 60 minutes.
(Contepomi x 2, O’Kelly, Kearney, Healy, Wright)


Mal?


I suppose if Heaslip is Leinster and O’Gara is Munster then Mal should probably be Leinster too

Leinster - 20 players (64%) - 7328 minutes (69%)
Ireland - 3 players (10%) - 257 minutes (2%)
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%)


The above is based on just the HCup squad - below is the % of Leinster players in the full squad in that and all the following seasons

08/09 = 66%
09/10 = 63%
10/11 = 72%
11/12 = 65%
12/13 = 63%
13/14 = 64%
14/15 = 69%
15/16 = 72%
16/17 = 73%
17/18 = 76%
18/19 = 79%
19/20 = 83%
Last edited by Xanthippe on May 24th, 2020, 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 24th, 2020, 1:45 pm

Xanthippe wrote:
ronk wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:During the 2008/09 season Leinster used a total of 31 players in their 9 Heineken Cup games - here’s the breakdown the origin of the players and the % of the squad they made up along with the number of minutes played and the % of the H-Cup they were responsible for:

Leinster - 19 players (61%) - 6785 minutes (63%)
Ireland - 4 players (13%) - 800 minutes (7%) - Fogarty, Hogan, Keogh, Mal
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%) - Elsom, Whitaker, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa, van der Linde, Holwell, leRoux




Edit: Before anyone tells me the minutes don’t add up to 10,800 - we had 6 yellow cards from 5 players for a total of 60 minutes.
(Contepomi x 2, O’Kelly, Kearney, Healy, Wright)


Mal?


I suppose if Heaslip is Leinster and O’Gara is Munster then Mal should probably be Leinster too

Leinster - 20 players (64%) - 7328 minutes (69%)
Ireland - 3 players (10%) - 257 minutes (2%)
Foreign - 8 players (26%) - 3155 minutes (29%)


If it is based purely on place of birth the you would have to discredit heaslip also.
I think Frankie Sheehan was born in Canada, so he’d be out too.

Based on the same metrics, would you consider Keane as a Leinster player?
Although born in Leinster he is a Connacht player IMO.
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Re: Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

Postby munster#1 » May 24th, 2020, 7:00 pm

I think this is was a very interesting and educational conversation.
Some people seem to have blinkers when it comes to looking at the negative part of their team when comparing to others.

The figures show that Leinster up until relatively recently relied on signing a fairly large number of players to allow them to remain competitive on 2 fronts.
This led to Leinster becoming one of the true giants of European rugby, and should be embraced for what it is.
It was the catalyst for success, and allowed Leinster to remain competitive while gradually building towards the squad that we see today.

Munster, Ulster and Connacht right now appear to be where Leinster were.
I am not going to hold my breath, but it would be good to see the other 3 provinces get to the stage where they too can field teams made up of largely homegrown players.

It is highly unlikely that all 4 teams will do this all at once, but that should be the goal for each of the respective academies.

I bet Leinster are looking to improve themselves even further to the point that they do not need Cronin, fardy, JGP, Lowe and henshaw in their starting teams.

The one thing that hopefully comes out of this is that we will no longer see people in glass houses throwing stones.
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