Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[suisse]

Robert Kitson on a Wednesday: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... ineken-cup

Some of his points are good, notably about this becoming a two-speed HEC, but this is the first paragraph:

Halfway house in this year's Heineken Cup pool stages and the stats speak for themselves. The Welsh regions? Played nine lost eight, the exception being the Ospreys' home win over Treviso. Scotland's two representatives? Played six lost six, three tries scored and 14 conceded. Italy's deadly duo? Played six lost six, points leaked 218. For almost all concerned it is game over with rounds four, five and six still to go.

This is the second paragraph:

...No, the problem is the timing of it all. Talks about the tournament's future are due to resume on Wednesday. Those demanding change need only push a list of this season's results across the table, sit back and politely seek further comment.

Paul Rees mentions the looming meeting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/de ... -cup-talks

These include the slimming down the Heineken Cup and making qualification meritocratic, beefing up the Amlin Challenge Cup, having an equal financial share-out and making the tournament commercially stronger by changing television broadcasters and ensuring a terrestrial element to coverage.

What, exactly, is their argument then? When has the performance of respective sides been the issue with this? I thought their biggest beef was Irish sides who can rest players in the PRO12 then unleash them fresh on Europe while the battered and bruised English sides from a superior league are constantly fighting the threat of relegation? Since when has Ospreys' 1/3 record been an issue since they, themselves, qualified by right? And Glasgow's 0/3?

There is a definite element of shifting the goalposts here to suit their agenda. This year, the Rabo sides are not performing well. But last year it was cr@p English teams like L. Irish and Bath.

It seems if a Rabo team wins, it is because of player welfare, so we need to change the system.
It seems if a Rabo team loses, it is because of their sh!t domestic tournament that is undervaluing the HEC.

As an aside, I hate when people refer to the Irish teams as "regions."

[suisse]

From the same article, Kitson's ideas to change the HEC.

Five ways to improve the Heineken Cup

1 Tweak the qualifying process

There is already a logical proposal for a 20-team merit-based tournament, involving the top six sides from the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 12, plus the defending champions and the Challenge Cup winners. Currently Glasgow and Ospreys would make it but Edinburgh, Treviso and Cardiff Blues would not.

2 Reduce number of pools

Five pools of four teams – rather than four pools of five – would allow three second-placed sides to join the five winners in the last eight. The outcome of each game thus continues to affect everyone else.

3 Encourage home-based players

Offer financial grants or rewards out of central funding to clubs or regions whose 23-man match-day squads contain at least 15 players qualified for the union they represent. That figure should rise to 17 by 2016. Toulon had only four French internationals in their starting XV at Sale last Saturday.

4 Create third European competition Rugby across Europe in places such as Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain and Portugal needs more encouragement. A 40-team Challenge Cup would kick off with a home-and-away preliminary round, with the 20 first round losers contesting a new third-tier competition. It would yield more meaningful matches.

5 Play in better conditions

At the moment two-thirds of pool games are played in deep midwinter, often in soaking or freezing conditions. All pool fixtures should be scheduled before Christmas, ideally with at least half played in October.

[Dave Cahill]

I'd add one more thing to that.

All teams must be fully compliant with their home leagues participation regulations.

[paddyor]

Went through some of the comments under the article. They really are rabid about it. One fella went on about "the Irish trick of stuffing their teams with internationals for the games" "It should be a limited to how x players with 10 or more 6nations caps" etc. I don't see that anything has changed much from how it usually is at this stage of the competition. Last yuer was an exception with most of the qfs coming down to the last weekend of matches.

The big English teams who did win only bet Italian opposition and a welsh team that only got its players back the Monday before thje match. Exeter don't have ,many Internationals AFAIK. If the Italians had put one over on either Quins or Leicester it would likely have again serverd to prove their point. "It's not fair innit!".

The fact is the best teams in the Rabo are the teams that generally are competitive in HEC. Every now and again a minnow gots a run of good results(Edinburgh- though teams now seem to have them, figured out) or throws up a surprise (e.g. Connaught vs Biarritz or Exeter nearly beating us) thats malkes it exciting. I don't think anyone expected exeter to do anything in the competition but in denying us the bonus point they did. Fom here on out though it looks like as with 3(4) of the other English teams they'll be exiting early.

Reducing the numbers seems somewhat reasonable. Theirs now only 2 Scottish teams as opposed to 3 and 4 Welsh as opposed to 9-5. That said we've always had 3 places even though at one point we wouldn't let Connaught compete at the top table and hamstung them for years with under investment when they could. But I don't think it will add to the competition and make qualifiaction for the qfs more interesting.

[simonokeeffe]

the home grown/qualified players is an attempt to stymie French budgets as theyre signing Internationals whereas Saracens say have an ass load of residency qualified players

if we had 20 teams this year thered be no Cradiff, Zebre, Edinburgh, fair enough they all stink this year
but we'd have no Connacht who just beat Biarritz, beat Zebre away and ran Harlequins close in Galway
and we'd have no Ulster who are topping a pool right now after thrashing Northampton whose weak performances are devaluing the tournament just like Sale and Exeter

[Hornet]

the home grown/qualified players is an attempt to stymie French budgets as theyre signing Internationals whereas Saracens say have an ass load of residency qualified players

if we had 20 teams this year thered be no Cradiff, Zebre, Edinburgh, fair enough they all stink this year
but we'd have no Connacht who just beat Biarritz, beat Zebre away and ran Harlequins close in Galway
and we'd have no Ulster who are topping a pool right now after thrashing Northampton whose weak performances are devaluing the tournament just like Sale and Exeter

That would be the same Exeter who so far in their first HEC year nearly got a draw against us, and beat Scarlets by one less point than we did. Weak? we will have a tough time with them at Sandy Park in January.

[Donny B.]

GAVIN CUMMISKEY

Premiership Rugby’s leaking of their proposed compromise, before it was presented at yesterday’s fourth meeting of the ERC Stakeholders in London, has contributed to the deadlock in negotiations for a new Heineken Cup format come the 2014/15 season.

Bruce Craig, owner of Bath rugby club, who represented the English clubs along with the Premiership chief executive, Mick McCafferty, told the Daily Telegraph what they and the French clubs, Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR), believe could solve the stand-off.

There are three possible formats being discussed, with the current 24-team tournament rejected by English and French clubs, who proposed a 20-team structure, which includes six French, six English and six Pro12 clubs. The tournament winners would qualify automatically, with the last place going to the Amlin Challenge Cup winner or the club that reaches the Heineken final.

The 20-team idea would mean the top six in the Pro12 qualify automatically, ensuring some nations would eventually not be represented in the top tier of the European game.

“I believe there is a solution whereby the top four [of the Pro 12] would go through to a new primary competition and the next two sides going through would be, for example, the best Scottish and best Italian teams,” Craig was quoted as saying in the Telegraph.

“In terms of a compromise, this allows it to be a true European competition”.

The English and French clubs are also demanding an equal three-way split in profits from European competitions with the Pro12 clubs. They currently share 52 per cent of funding, with the French and English receiving 24 per cent each. They are thus seeking a nine per cent increase.

The third format, tabled by the Pro 12 faction, is a 32-team competition.

Television rights

A shadow lingering over the whole process is Premiership Rugby’s claim to have signed a broadcasting deal with BT Vision worth £152million (€187m), which includes rights for European matches involving English teams.

Despite four stakeholder meetings since September, attended by representatives from every union and domestic league, the ERC independent chairman Pierre Lux was forced to conclude:

“It is extremely disappointing for all involved that we have not yet made sufficient progress towards a new Accord.”

The IRFU’s long stated attitude to European competitions is that they exist to support the international game. This, obviously, is in conflict with how the LNR and Premiership Rugby view the tournaments.

A fifth meeting has not been scheduled but the ERC board will review the consultation process on February 6th.

[Donny B.]

Some "compromise" from the English there! Top 4 from the Pro12 plus a Scottish and Italian club. So much for insisting on it being an 'elite event'.

And the real reason for all this nonsense, they want a third of the money each for them and French and the other four countries get a third between them.

So much for trying to expand the game, they're trying to murder it in four other countries so they can carve up the game between themselves and the French.

Evil scumbags!

[suisse]

Some "compromise" from the English there! Top 4 from the Pro12 plus a Scottish and Italian club. So much for insisting on it being an 'elite event'.

And the real reason for all this nonsense, they want a third of the money each for them and French and the other four countries get a third between them.

So much for trying to expand the game, they're trying to murder it in four other countries so they can carve up the game between themselves and the French.

Evil scumbags!

My fav was McCafferty justifying the money by saying the England (and French) bring in the big crowds. 45,000 saw Leinster and a terrible Bath team last season, and a similar number will be back at the Aviva this Saturday. Munster = 26,000 (no English club can touch that), Ravenhill a guaranteed sell out and tiny Connacht have to install temporary seating to cater for demand. He speaks a lot of sh!t, does dear MMC

[tones]

the home grown/qualified players is an attempt to stymie French budgets as theyre signing Internationals whereas Saracens say have an ass load of residency qualified players

if we had 20 teams this year thered be no Cradiff, Zebre, Edinburgh, fair enough they all stink this year
but we'd have no Connacht who just beat Biarritz, beat Zebre away and ran Harlequins close in Galway
and we'd have no Ulster who are topping a pool right now after thrashing Northampton whose weak performances are devaluing the tournament just like Sale and Exeter

That would be the same Exeter who so far in their first HEC year nearly got a draw against us, and beat Scarlets by one less point than we did. Weak? we will have a tough time with them at Sandy Park in January.

Considering our performance in the Michelin I'm confident about Sandy Park.

[ronk]

9%, fibbers. They're looking for a 37% increase in funding, each, in a move that will shrink the pot long-term.

[Donny B.]

9%, fibbers. They're looking for a 37% increase in funding, each, in a move that will shrink the pot long-term.

But set up some little competition for Georgian clubs to play in so they can lie to themselves and others about "expanding the game"!

[Fred Funk]

So you work your arse off to get into the new 20 team HEC only to find that 3/6 of the French and English clubs are either not interested or not good enough. Something Irish teams could never be accused of. Jokers !! If they want the money they need to produce the goods.

[Oldschool]

It's a fair bet that an Anglo-French competition won't work.
How well is the Anglo-Welsh competition doing? My impression is "not well" because otherwise the English clubs wouldn't need the extra money.
The big imponderables, but interesting questions are:-
How much revenue do the English teams bring in at the gate and to/from Sky.
How much revenue do the Irish teams bring in at the gate and to/from Sky.
How much revenue do the Welsh teams bring in at the gate and to/from Sky.
How much revenue do the Sccotish teams bring in at the gate and to/from Sky.
How much revenue do the French teams bring in at the gate and to/from French TV.
How much revenue do the Italian teams bring in at the gate and to/from Italian TV.
The to/from is what are the TV companies paying into the coffers and what are they getting from increased subscription and advertising.

Presumably somebody knows or can make educated guesses about some of the above.

The gate attendance info is probably readily available and at a guess Ireland punches well above it's weight.
But how do the other countries fare compared to each other.

Also how the domestic competitions fare?
I suspect the Rabo is doing quite well overall in comparison to the English equivalent.
I also suspect the French do better than anyone.

A lot of unanswered questions, that maybe GT would be better giving his full attention to.

And finally the Coup de tat:- Is the real reason behind this to do with the fact that English clubs are not doing well in the HEC and they want to nobble the Irish teams in particular, because we are winning the cups that they think they should be winning. (Leicester and Northampton come to mind)

(Coup de tat - reminds me of the punchline of an old joke "no t!t for tat and there is a sense of that about this whole thing or certainly there is a bit of the "hind t!t" attitude from the big two with regard to the smaller unions)

[TrapperChamonix]

I'd expect this to get even more fractious. What ever about the talk of qualification requirements, we all know it's about the money. The English and French know that their TV markets are the ones that drive the TV money and they want a bigger share. I can imagine that the biggest fear for the WRU, IRFU, FIR & SRU is that this is precedent setting and will ulimately lead the FFR & RFU to challenge the split of the 6 Nations.

[simonokeeffe]

maybe silver lining from this weekends results is they cant say the Irish clubs have an unfair advantage which means they win all the time anymore

[paddyor]

Weekends results proves they're right

[John23]

Open to correction, but just at a glance this round shows: 6 T14 wins, 5 AP wins and 1 Pro12 win. Could have gone all nerdy on how sh!t Pro12 teams did this weekend but the drink is starting to numb my keyboard skills

[TerenureJim]

I'd expect this to get even more fractious. What ever about the talk of qualification requirements, we all know it's about the money. The English and French know that their TV markets are the ones that drive the TV money and they want a bigger share. I can imagine that the biggest fear for the WRU, IRFU, FIR & SRU is that this is precedent setting and will ulimately lead the FFR & RFU to challenge the split of the 6 Nations.

Yes but if the RFU and FFR don't have anyone to play against well there's nothing for the TF1 or the BBC to pay for, they do sort of need other teams playing them.....

[Donny B.]

Biggest hammering over the weekend with Sale's defeat to Toulon though. Just saying.

The HC has always been cyclical anyway. Still no reason to destroy the tournament to satisfy the greedy, power-hungry b$&%@#ds!