Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[Beckenham Wasp]

Premier Rugby need the RFU alive so they can suck it dry.

Our biggest strength is our ability to stand together with the other countries and the knowledge that we're worth more to English (and French) rugby than they are to us (a corollary of them having a bigger market).

The extra 6N game for each Union is worth far more than what Italy get, there are still many people who understand that. If we want to fight off Premier Rugby (and there'll be a next time), our strongest hand is to turn the Welsh westwards decisively while we have the chance and they're hurting.

Going it alone is the 2nd worst thing we could do (begging PRL to let us get into bed with them is the worst).

The Premier Rugby/RFU relationship is a mutually beneficial co-operative one, not a parasitic one. It is the clubs that still pay the vast majority of the England internationals' wages and it is the clubs that play the major role in development of the elite players. Premier Rugby gives as much to the RFU as the RFU gives the clubs. It is how a proper partnership works.

How are the Irish provinces worth more to the English and French clubs than the English and French clubs are to the Irish provinces? That doesn't make any sense. As the IRFU admits its financial plans are dependent on getting access to the proceeds of TV and sponsorship deals linked generated by the English and French market.

Difference in the value of the TV deals and sponsorship for the Top 14 and Premiership compared to the Pro12 demonstrates that. Also the "Pro12 coalition" has proven to be remarkably fragile and ineffectual during these negotiations, even with the assistance of the French Federation. There has been little or no ability or strength from the IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR "standing together". The WRU was undermined by their own professional teams and the Scots and Italians are skint and easily bought off. I can't see any of that changing soon.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Premier Rugby need the RFU alive so they can suck it dry.

Our biggest strength is our ability to stand together with the other countries and the knowledge that we're worth more to English (and French) rugby than they are to us (a corollary of them having a bigger market).

The extra 6N game for each Union is worth far more than what Italy get, there are still many people who understand that. If we want to fight off Premier Rugby (and there'll be a next time), our strongest hand is to turn the Welsh westwards decisively while we have the chance and they're hurting.

Going it alone is the 2nd worst thing we could do (begging PRL to let us get into bed with them is the worst).

Don't think anybody is suggesting going it alone as such, more a reevaluation of strategy and tactics and a serious examination of who the opposition are and the game they are opposing us with, what their strategy is likely to be and why and so on and so forth. The PRL won this round but there was the touch of Pyrrhic about it. They've laid the ground work for the next time because they've tested our defences and found a few weaknesses. As you say we need to get the Welsh to look West but the PRL already have their boot boys in there and the WRU didn't do to well against a pretty weak opponent.
So question for you and others Ronk - How do we get them to look West - What are the carrots and sticks we can use.
We need the Scots and Italians on board and perhaps exploit the Frenchies innate aversion to all things English.
An aversion I wouldn't underestimate. The French definitely won't want L'Anglais putting one over on the them.
They like us to win the odd HEC but not the English - The English don't really understand this aversion BTW but the French dislike of them is very palpable when one is abroad in France. And for balance the French aren't complete angels either but they do have the old je nes se quoi about them. The rest of us, kind of have to wait in the long grass and bide our time and be prepared to strike. Wonder would Joe have any ideas?

And a little aside the PRL and their Welsh allies might well want to pull the rug from under us if we did get to host RWC23.

How is it a Pyrrhic victory for the English and French clubs? What have they lost? How have they been weakened? They have got commercial control of the new competitions and a greater share of the revenues once they increase over £64 million.

If anything the English and French clubs will be in an even stronger financial position in 6 years time.

[suisse]

Be interesting how boisterous Welsh (and Scots) will be about syphoning off RWC matches when we bid for that

Not really interested in us bidding for the RWC if it involves matches outside the country. We can and should do it all here. Anything else dilutes the economic benefit and the takes from the atmosphere.

Agreed- all or nothing!

This is where the IRB needs to come in. Make every RWC a one union/country event to end this nonsense of Cardiff landing key RWC games. If Wales isn't big enough to go alone, then so be it. Having legitimate bids hijacked by the Welsh is infuriating, and to a lesser extent some other countries.

"The tournament is scheduled to be hosted by England" - and yet the Millennium Stadium will host 8 games. New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, France and Wales will all play group stage games in Cardiff.

[Beckenham Wasp]

What I would like to see but know will never happen is that the unions take the time of stability we now have to gradually take back the game. Let them play the long game. Prl and Welsh teams have run in to financial difficulties in the past. As it happens again the unions should step in to take a controlling share. They can be silent partners for the day to day running of the club but control the macro situation. Working with the more reasonable and stable clubs they could retake the game from the destructive element that have appeared.

I am totally ok with the current owners looking out for their own business interests but I do not feel those interests are necessarily good for the whole game. As I said I think the unions should gradually take back the game.

PS I would appreciate if it would not reply or comment on my posts as I would like a reasoned discussion.

How are the Unions going to "take back" the game? The RFU has shown no interests in owning or directly running any of the Premiership clubs and even it they wanted to the amateur clubs and county Unions on the RFU council would stop them.

The new European competitions strengthen the English and French clubs commercially. They will stronger in 6 years time not weaker.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Not really interested in us bidding for the RWC if it involves matches outside the country. We can and should do it all here. Anything else dilutes the economic benefit and the takes from the atmosphere.[/quote]
Agreed- all or nothing![/quote]

This is where the IRB needs to come in. Make every RWC a one union/country event to end this nonsense of Cardiff landing key RWC games. If Wales isn't big enough to go alone, then so be it. Having legitimate bids hijacked by the Welsh is infuriating, and to a lesser extent some other countries.

"The tournament is scheduled to be hosted by England" - and yet the Millennium Stadium will host 8 games. New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, France and Wales will all play group stage games in Cardiff.[/quote]

Cardiff is being used because the Old Trafford and the City of Manchester Stadium pulled out of their commitment to host 5 or 6 matches. England won the bid on an England only basis. The IRB only agreed to Cardiff being used on the proviso that Wales weren't allowed to play any tier one opposition in Cardiff. Wales's pool matches against England and Australia will be at Twickenham as will either of the quarter finals they can qualify for.

[ronk]

Premier Rugby need the RFU alive so they can suck it dry.

Our biggest strength is our ability to stand together with the other countries and the knowledge that we're worth more to English (and French) rugby than they are to us (a corollary of them having a bigger market).

The extra 6N game for each Union is worth far more than what Italy get, there are still many people who understand that. If we want to fight off Premier Rugby (and there'll be a next time), our strongest hand is to turn the Welsh westwards decisively while we have the chance and they're hurting.

Going it alone is the 2nd worst thing we could do (begging PRL to let us get into bed with them is the worst).

Don't think anybody is suggesting going it alone as such, more a reevaluation of strategy and tactics and a serious examination of who the opposition are and the game they are opposing us with, what their strategy is likely to be and why and so on and so forth. The PRL won this round but there was the touch of Pyrrhic about it. They've laid the ground work for the next time because they've tested our defences and found a few weaknesses. As you say we need to get the Welsh to look West but the PRL already have their boot boys in there and the WRU didn't do to well against a pretty weak opponent.
So question for you and others Ronk - How do we get them to look West - What are the carrots and sticks we can use.
We need the Scots and Italians on board and perhaps exploit the Frenchies innate aversion to all things English.
An aversion I wouldn't underestimate. The French definitely won't want L'Anglais putting one over on the them.
They like us to win the odd HEC but not the English - The English don't really understand this aversion BTW but the French dislike of them is very palpable when one is abroad in France. And for balance the French aren't complete angels either but they do have the old je nes se quoi about them. The rest of us, kind of have to wait in the long grass and bide our time and be prepared to strike. Wonder would Joe have any ideas?

And a little aside the PRL and their Welsh allies might well want to pull the rug from under us if we did get to host RWC23.

The Celtic league has been an amazing but poorly understood tournament, even by many of the teams in it. 11 home games, or 3 in the Heineken Cup.

People talk about our ideal "provincial" structure but that's not entirely true. Munster is split between Cork and Limerick in ways that go way beyond the problems in Wales or Scotland. They still have two training bases (AFAiK).

The key to Munster's relative decline was that they didn't see the emergent potential of the Celtic League. For a while it was a way to fulfil more fixtures. The IRFU understood the Rabo when they killed the interpros. Munster got that aspect wrong when they redeveloped Thomond. They built corporate sections and sold Rabo only season tickets because they thought the Heineken Cup was everything. It was a huge missed opportunity, one that was allowed to happen because clubs had too much say, as they have done in Wales.

Concentrating on big names and big games isn't the right platform for building a successful club. Consistency is important. That's why Connacht did badly, that's why Cardiff and Edinburgh spent big to make Heineken Cup semis but have nothing to show for it. Glasgow changed their approach and have become a far better team because they take the Rabo seriously. Leinster built their squad on a Rabo foundation. Scarlets are a well run club, they focus on a good home record.

The Welsh sacked Ruddock because winning a slam didn't stop the fighting. They almost did the same with Gatland, but they did actually learn something. They've always viewed the Rabo as a necessary evil.

What they need to do is assert a bit more control over the clubs and focus on simple good stable management. Turn their backs on the English dream. They got burnt, it's been exposed as hopeless, MOVE ON.

The key thing is the Anglo Welsh Cup, it's a fading competition, but one that still lingers and just devalues other competitions in Wales. It makes too many games for the regions and encourages the mentality of only showing up for the big games (for fans and players).

It just has no place. How can there be a serious long term strategy when it's there every year demonstrating that they still aren't sure what competitions they want to be in. The thought processes to really figure out how to move forward can't properly happen until they've put both feet into the Rabo.

Other teams understood that a season or two without European rugby was a problem (but still only 3 home games), for the Welsh it was everything, even though they don't even try that hard in it.

[Fireworks]

What I would like to see but know will never happen is that the unions take the time of stability we now have to gradually take back the game. Let them play the long game. Prl and Welsh teams have run in to financial difficulties in the past. As it happens again the unions should step in to take a controlling share. They can be silent partners for the day to day running of the club but control the macro situation. Working with the more reasonable and stable clubs they could retake the game from the destructive element that have appeared.

I am totally ok with the current owners looking out for their own business interests but I do not feel those interests are necessarily good for the whole game. As I said I think the unions should gradually take back the game.

PS I would appreciate if it would not reply or comment on my posts as I would like a reasoned discussion.

How are the Unions going to "take back" the game? The RFU has shown no interests in owning or directly running any of the Premiership clubs and even it they wanted to the amateur clubs and county Unions on the RFU council would stop them.

The new European competitions strengthen the English and French clubs commercially. They will stronger in 6 years time not weaker.

Last time I will respond to IT. LEARN TO READ. See highlighted above. I have no interest in anything you have to say and would appreciate if you would not comment on any of my posts. I am interest in the views of the rugby fans on here where ever they are from but you do not qualify under those rules. Even your own teams fans do not want you.

Hopefully IT gets the message.

[Beckenham Wasp]

What I would like to see but know will never happen is that the unions take the time of stability we now have to gradually take back the game. Let them play the long game. Prl and Welsh teams have run in to financial difficulties in the past. As it happens again the unions should step in to take a controlling share. They can be silent partners for the day to day running of the club but control the macro situation. Working with the more reasonable and stable clubs they could retake the game from the destructive element that have appeared.

I am totally ok with the current owners looking out for their own business interests but I do not feel those interests are necessarily good for the whole game. As I said I think the unions should gradually take back the game.

PS I would appreciate if it would not reply or comment on my posts as I would like a reasoned discussion.

How are the Unions going to "take back" the game? The RFU has shown no interests in owning or directly running any of the Premiership clubs and even it they wanted to the amateur clubs and county Unions on the RFU council would stop them.

The new European competitions strengthen the English and French clubs commercially. They will stronger in 6 years time not weaker.

Last time I will respond to IT. LEARN TO READ. See highlighted above. I have no interest in anything you have to say and would appreciate if you would not comment on any of my posts. I am interest in the views of the rugby fans on here where ever they are from but you do not qualify under those rules. Even your own teams fans do not want you.

Hopefully IT gets the message.

How are the Unions going to take back the game? In 6 years time the English and French clubs will be richer and stronger.

[BlueBlue]

Shane Horgan's views on the IRFU needing to be a bit more selfish is getting a bit of an airing.

It's too late to now but I wonder if Leinster, Munster and Ulster (as opposed to the IRFU) had cosied up to the PRL as a tactical manoeuvre, might the Welsh Club boyos have been forced to back the Pro12 league and thereby force an earlier resolution to the HEC talks.
Right now the Italians and the French are showing that getting uppity now and down is exactly what is needed.

Were I the IRFU I would be giving Connacht every possible backing to ensure they are in a position to claim ideally 6th and if not 7th place next season.
The Welsh clubs and to a lesser extent the WRU showed themselves to be unreliable and disloyal. They have merely succeeded in weakening the league that they have no choice but to stay in, support and build up. The Welsh run the risk that Italy and perhaps even Scotland (The Italians in particular but Aberdeen Asset Managers have waved a flag of support for the Scots) might get their acts together and they then become marginalised.

+1

[Fireworks]

Shane Horgan's views on the IRFU needing to be a bit more selfish is getting a bit of an airing.

It's too late to now but I wonder if Leinster, Munster and Ulster (as opposed to the IRFU) had cosied up to the PRL as a tactical manoeuvre, might the Welsh Club boyos have been forced to back the Pro12 league and thereby force an earlier resolution to the HEC talks.
Right now the Italians and the French are showing that getting uppity now and down is exactly what is needed.

Were I the IRFU I would be giving Connacht every possible backing to ensure they are in a position to claim ideally 6th and if not 7th place next season.
The Welsh clubs and to a lesser extent the WRU showed themselves to be unreliable and disloyal. They have merely succeeded in weakening the league that they have no choice but to stay in, support and build up. The Welsh run the risk that Italy and perhaps even Scotland (The Italians in particular but Aberdeen Asset Managers have waved a flag of support for the Scots) might get their acts together and they then become marginalised.

+1

Not sure that would be good for us in the long run. We do need to be more selfish but at the same time we need the league to get stronger. We do not want a situation to continue where there are the top teams and the also rans. This is how the prl have it and it creates a dull league where the playoff teams can be picked before the league kicks off. There is the odd surprise but not much. What we want is for there to be more competition as that will force us to improve and will make the league a more attractive proposition for sponsorship and tv rights.

[BlueBlue]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

[Lar]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

Understand where you are coming from in this and appreciate why you feel this way but I really believe that we need to try to work to getting the Welsh regions more competitive so that the game in Europe becomes stronger rather than as a defence mechanism against the RRW threatening to leave.

I would like to see a scenario where the Pro12 is demonstrably a stronger league that the AP for example. We don't have this at the moment but if by way of example the sides that are say 7th - 10th in the Pro12 are regularly beating sides from the AP in whatever the new Amlin CC is then there is a renewed argument (not that I suspect to ever succeed) that on merit the Pro12 should have more teams in the European Cup. I suspect the French and English will say that if this occurs the Pro12 will get an 8th side in the EC from next season because the play offs allow one extra place this way.

But the truth is that the new division of money will in the long run anyway harm the sides outside England and France. That is of course the major flaw in the new competition. It will make England and France far stronger and weaken the Pro12 sides. Whether the old system was unfair can be argued (and maybe it was) but the new one is no fairer in a sporting sense. In fact it will diminish the four Pro12 nations not improve them.

I would also welcome a second tier Pro12, but the trouble is that this would require significant investment and with a smaller share of European Cup money this in fact looks further away rather than closer.

If however there is really to be a third tier European Competition then perhaps we should use this as an embryonic Pro12 promotion/relegation competition. If the last team in the Pro12 drops down to this competition and the winner of it is promoted to the Pro12 (maybe a playoff between 11th and the runner up) we might use this to truly develop the Pro12 into a more competitive league. I haven't examined the numbers though, but if the EC will lose 4 teams to what was the Amlin presumably there is less room there for teams from Portugal, Spain, Romania etc. This suggestion would only work if Tier 2 Europe did not already have Spanish, Portuguese, Georgian, Romanian sides, and/or if there were no French or English teams in the Tier 3 European Competition.

[I was recently surprised at the interest in Rugby in Spain. Only last month I was asked by the head of a firm in Madrid for recommendations of restaurants in Cardiff(!) because the he was bringing ten people from Madrid to Cardiff to see Wales Scotland on the last day of the 6 Nations.]

[simonokeeffe]

Leo Varadkar made point today if we get RWC it will mean 3 in a row for NH, not sure Japan counts really as NH, so a strong PFO to Welsh overtures should help our cause as last Euro RWC had Wales hosting

[JB1973]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

RRW are the root cause of the problems of the game in wales and are also the biggest problem with the pro 12 going forward in the future.

We all know they want to play in England, they don't care if this destabilises the national team, the grass roots team and damned sure they don't care if it affects the other pro 12 nations.

If we could get the best players contracted to the wru (who are committed to the pro 12) that would be the ideal solution even if the current regions then walked away, we could replace them with the same players but in other areas of Wales, North Wales and a Pontypridd based valley side would jump at the chance.

If we are looking to create more depth to the pro 12, a celtic side side based in London would be a great idea , big ex pat following, attractive place for players to join and would be a great place for attracting away fans for the weekend.

If that can't be done I suppose a Romanian or Georgian side is the next best option although an annual visit to Barcelona would be attractive to!

[Fireworks]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

RRW are the root cause of the problems of the game in wales and are also the biggest problem with the pro 12 going forward in the future.

We all know they want to play in England, they don't care if this destabilises the national team, the grass roots team and damned sure they don't care if it affects the other pro 12 nations.

If we could get the best players contracted to the wru (who are committed to the pro 12) that would be the ideal solution even if the current regions then walked away, we could replace them with the same players but in other areas of Wales, North Wales and a Pontypridd based valley side would jump at the chance.

If we are looking to create more depth to the pro 12, a celtic side side based in London would be a great idea , big ex pat following, attractive place for players to join and would be a great place for attracting away fans for the weekend.

If that can't be done I suppose a Romanian or Georgian side is the next best option although an annual visit to Barcelona would be attractive to!

Extending the pro12 with teams from new countries is a drum I bang too often. I think it is really worth looking at as it expands the reach of the league and the potential tv audience.

The london team idea I do like and have also mentioned before but I believe it would have to pass the RFU and I cannot see them letting it happen. They may in general be open to it but the prl would throw their toys out of the pram.

On the Welsh problem, central contracts would help to stabilise the situation and allow new teams to be created when the current ones go to the wall. Not sure it is going so well as a concept at the moment.

I would be interested in your views on them taking a longer view of the situation. Back some more representative regional teams that work directly with the local clubs and get them into the eruropean third division being suggested, the B&I, a div2 of the pro12 or whatever is available. As the current teams run into financial trouble let them go to the wall and replace them with the new teams. Also over time you would starve them of talent as all the players coming up through the grass routes would be filtered into the new teams. Maybe make these new teams and the current one qualify for the pro12 spots.

All I know is something has to happen to strengthen the product. Much as I like seeing us win I do not think it helps the league that we are often disappointed not to get a bonus point against some of the welsh teams. Bonus points should be more difficult to earn.

[JB1973]

the RGC is a representative regional team of sorts , it's basically all the best players from the junior clubs in north wales made into a super team. There is talk they will be promoted into a 14 team top flight welsh premiership set up next year. A lot of the better players who would have been filtered into regional academies or even the English game are staying up there, their age group sides have beaten a lot of the regional set youth sides so that bodes well for their future.

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys but it's so political in welsh rugby than the older sides will always kick back at any changes even if they are for the betterment of the game.

The moffat situation is just making it worse never mind we live in hope!

[Fireworks]

the RGC is a representative regional team of sorts , it's basically all the best players from the junior clubs in north wales made into a super team. There is talk they will be promoted into a 14 team top flight welsh premiership set up next year. A lot of the better players who would have been filtered into regional academies or even the English game are staying up there, their age group sides have beaten a lot of the regional set youth sides so that bodes well for their future.

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys but it's so political in welsh rugby than the older sides will always kick back at any changes even if they are for the betterment of the game.

The moffat situation is just making it worse never mind we live in hope!

moffat / muppet. Is it a coincidence. Is there anything of use in his plan or is it just adding to the confusion and mess.

[JB1973]

the RGC is a representative regional team of sorts , it's basically all the best players from the junior clubs in north wales made into a super team. There is talk they will be promoted into a 14 team top flight welsh premiership set up next year. A lot of the better players who would have been filtered into regional academies or even the English game are staying up there, their age group sides have beaten a lot of the regional set youth sides so that bodes well for their future.

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys but it's so political in welsh rugby than the older sides will always kick back at any changes even if they are for the betterment of the game.

The moffat situation is just making it worse never mind we live in hope!

moffat / muppet. Is it a coincidence. Is there anything of use in his plan or is it just adding to the confusion and mess.

He does have valid points regarding increased funding for the grass roots game and he seems to have a better understanding of central contracts than anyone else in Wales.

But the guy is clearly in it for himself and this is a ploy to line his pockets and boost his ego more than anything else.

Our club chairman and sec went to a talk by josh lewesey the other day, both are very impressed by him and what he has to say , so hopefully we will see positive developments

[The Doc]

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys

I saw the Ponty are bringing 2,500 to their away B&I game against the Pirates - it shows there is some foundation there. If they were seeded with some centrally contracted development players they could be the base for a second division.

[Fireworks]

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys

I saw the Ponty are bringing 2,500 to their away B&I game against the Pirates - it shows there is some foundation there. If they were seeded with some centrally contracted development players they could be the base for a second division.

That is a serious crowd for a club team to take to an away game. Am I wrong or have there been welsh pro12 games with less at them.

Throw in a few similar Welsh teams our B&I teams and a few other and you have a league. We are already spending money on them so the cost of getting it going should not be too high. Over time swap in new teams from new territories.

Throw in a few pints and I think we can sort the rest of the worlds problems over lunch.