Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[cormac]

First soundbites from the french;

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2 ... 68865.html

Far more considered than McCaffrey which is promising to see. He's also right that the Scots and Italians shouldn't automatically have two entrants, if they only have two teams.

[Schumi]

The easiest answer would be to split the Pro 12 into two Pro 6s and demand equal representation from each of the four leagues. Simple.

[Donny B.]

First soundbites from the french;

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2 ... 68865.html

Far more considered than McCaffrey which is promising to see. He's also right that the Scots and Italians shouldn't automatically have two entrants, if they only have two teams.

Well they had two spots before they had two teams, remember the Borders used to play in the Amlin. And the Italians had two spots which were filled by their top clubs sides, Treviso and someone else. The Italians actually formed the two super-clubs on the basis of having those two spots so it would seem a bit unfair to penalise them for it retrospectively.

[cormac]

First soundbites from the french;

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2 ... 68865.html

Far more considered than McCaffrey which is promising to see. He's also right that the Scots and Italians shouldn't automatically have two entrants, if they only have two teams.

Well they had two spots before they had two teams, remember the Borders used to play in the Amlin. And the Italians had two spots which were filled by their top clubs sides, Treviso and someone else. The Italians actually formed the two super-clubs on the basis of having those two spots so it would seem a bit unfair to penalise them for it retrospectively.

Yes, but it now leads to a farcical situation where a completely new Italian side gets straight into the competition. I think it's pretty inevitable that some new form of merit qualification from the Pro12 will be negotiated. If it stays at 24 teams, and I hope it does, I'd suggest one guaranteed qualifier from the four Pro12 nations with the next four qualifying on league position. English and French reps would increase by 1 to a guaranteed 7.

[West Brit]

I think it's pretty inevitable that some new form of merit qualification from the Pro12 will be negotiated. If it stays at 24 teams, and I hope it does, I'd suggest one guaranteed qualifier from the four Pro12 nations with the next four qualifying on league position. English and French reps would increase by 1 to a guaranteed 7.

Yep, I've said in the past that I think this is the likely outcome. I also think it's pretty desirable actually - it ensures that all nations are represented but adds a certain amount of excitement to the Pro 12 amongst the middle to lower-ranked clubs that is currently missing. If I were in charge of the world (and how I wish I was!) that would be what I would do.

[totalrandomer]

Edinburgh and zebre replaced by stade francais and London Irish . this year by those rules.

[mikerob]

Yes, but it now leads to a farcical situation where a completely new Italian side gets straight into the competition. I think it's pretty inevitable that some new form of merit qualification from the Pro12 will be negotiated. If it stays at 24 teams, and I hope it does, I'd suggest one guaranteed qualifier from the four Pro12 nations with the next four qualifying on league position. English and French reps would increase by 1 to a guaranteed 7.

So this would be 7 AP, 7 T14, 8 P12 and 2 based upon winners of HEC and ACC.

If the AP and T14 teams are just after more money, then 7/24 (29%) isn't that much less than 6/20 (30%).

I can see the Pro12 unions simply refusing to give up places on a matter of principle (even if position-based qualification may improve the Pro12) and the Italians and Scots have the most to lose. I checked on the 2 seasons since the Pro12 had the Italian teams and using the qualification method above, the same Irish and Welsh teams would have qualified for the HEC, but a Scottish and Italian team would have lost out.

[ronk]

The easiest thing that ERC could do to help the English (and French) sides, is simply change the seeding. It would do far more than just having 5 groups instead of 6.

Seeding is actually unfair on them because they don't qualify every year and hence it doesn't always have a lot in common with the relative strength. It takes 4 years in the Heineken Cup to attain a full rating and really it's longer because of the poor seedings in early years. Teams like Metro and Montpellier come in right at the bottom, Biarritz always get an easier group.

How does reducing the number of teams help them in any way, it makes no sense beyond pure scorched earth policy.

[mikerob]

How does reducing the number of teams help them in any way, it makes no sense beyond pure scorched earth policy.

from 6/24 to 6/20 = 20% increase in money.

[Donny B.]

I love the way the French are also demanding that this trifling European business be completed by April so they can presumably have 14 rounds of play-off matches stretching into August.

[tones]

The Anglo-French proposals will damage the European game, as its the two weakest unions (Scotland and Italy) that will be impacted the most. This is not in the interest of European rugby, and it would threaten the very survival of Rugby in Italy, Scotland and probably kill off two provinces in Ireland and Wales. At the same time, I'd imagine the greater share of significantly lower revenues for their Franglo cup would amount to no real gain at all (even if the Welsh jumped ship and went with them as expected).

Personally I think the the celtic (and Italian) unions need to take a good look at what is being suggested. They should look at threatening the 6 nations as a tournament if their domestic game is ripped to shreds.

Completely agree.

[Flash Gordon]

The Anglo-French proposals will damage the European game, as its the two weakest unions (Scotland and Italy) that will be impacted the most. This is not in the interest of European rugby, and it would threaten the very survival of Rugby in Italy, Scotland and probably kill off two provinces in Ireland and Wales. At the same time, I'd imagine the greater share of significantly lower revenues for their Franglo cup would amount to no real gain at all (even if the Welsh jumped ship and went with them as expected).

Personally I think the the celtic (and Italian) unions need to take a good look at what is being suggested. They should look at threatening the 6 nations as a tournament if their domestic game is ripped to shreds.

Completely agree.

Don't think anyone's going to buy a threat to cut off our entire income pool! Anyway, the clubs in France couldn't give a monkees about Ireland in the 6 nations.

The French position is odd given that half their participants don't actually seem to want to be there! Either way, I think we've got to stop sitting around waiting for the next attack on our position and start shaping a new future. We are the best team in Europe so we should be calling the shots. Personally, I think Leinster should start moving the conversation along to an elite European league comprising the top clubs from across the continent. If we want to grow that's realistically the only place we can go. I love the pro-direct but the possibility of playing Toulouse, Leicester and ASM week in week out would be a different level of rugby and enjoyment.

[ronk]

How does reducing the number of teams help them in any way, it makes no sense beyond pure scorched earth policy.

from 6/24 to 6/20 = 20% increase in money.

They'd still have to give a share to Scotland and Italy regardless of qualification unless they also changed those rules.

The sensible thing to do would be to strengthen the Rabo. It's not the same but it's been playing 2nd choice and could step up.

[tones]

The Anglo-French proposals will damage the European game, as its the two weakest unions (Scotland and Italy) that will be impacted the most. This is not in the interest of European rugby, and it would threaten the very survival of Rugby in Italy, Scotland and probably kill off two provinces in Ireland and Wales. At the same time, I'd imagine the greater share of significantly lower revenues for their Franglo cup would amount to no real gain at all (even if the Welsh jumped ship and went with them as expected).

Personally I think the the celtic (and Italian) unions need to take a good look at what is being suggested. They should look at threatening the 6 nations as a tournament if their domestic game is ripped to shreds.

Completely agree.

Don't think anyone's going to buy a threat to cut off our entire income pool! Anyway, the clubs in France couldn't give a monkees about Ireland in the 6 nations.

The French position is odd given that half their participants don't actually seem to want to be there! Either way, I think we've got to stop sitting around waiting for the next attack on our position and start shaping a new future. We are the best team in Europe so we should be calling the shots. Personally, I think Leinster should start moving the conversation along to an elite European league comprising the top clubs from across the continent. If we want to grow that's realistically the only place we can go. I love the pro-direct but the possibility of playing Toulouse, Leicester and ASM week in week out would be a different level of rugby and enjoyment.

Its been used before successfully - not against the French albeit. Do you think the IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR will sit down with the FFR at the nextround of talks regarding the 6 nations and conveniently ignore this threat???? If the 4 smaller unions are worth anything, they'll remind the FFR of this - I'm not sure how exactly they would approach it or what the content would be...but it is very likely it will be raised again. The Heineken CUp is important for the smaller unions to be able to compete with the larger unions at Test level, they're not going to let the FFR or RFU away with this without some threat.
As for your other idea, while the chances of playing these teams would be great...remember what is rare is beautiful. That competition would become stale with a limited number of teams. I'm not even going to bother talking about the oringal ideal of the European Cup and the inevitable result of Test rugby being diminished ala soccer.

[dropkick]

Looks like things are getting interesting!

English and French agreed on cup format

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty believes the alliance between England and France over the future of the Heineken Cup is stronger than ever.
The Aviva Premiership and Top 14 clubs have tabled plans to overhaul the structure of European rugby that are being opposed by the Celtic nations and Italy, who make up the Rabodirect PRO12.

The English and French want to ensure teams from the PRO12 qualify for a 20-team Heineken Cup on merit and for the money to be divided equally between the three leagues. The French clubs on Wednesday rejected two different counter proposals tabled by the PRO12 and stood firm on their agreement with Premiership Rugby, who were not invited to the meeting.

The PRO12 proposals have been interpreted by some club officials as an attempt to drive a wedge between England and France. But if that was the case, then McCafferty believes it has failed and potentially back-fired.

"It's disappointing that European Rugby Cup Ltd chose to stage a meeting in this way," McCafferty said. "However, everyone is now at least absolutely clear that the French and English clubs have a common vision for the format of European competition for 2014."


Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport ... z2ALlQX78a

[suisse]

Paul Rees has his say in the Guardian.

Heineken Cup leaves bitter taste for bottom clubs
The second round of the Heineken Cup yielded nothing for the teams most at risk if the English and French clubs get their way over the qualification process for the tournament.

The first round saw the six sides who finished in the bottom half of the Pro 12 last season win one match between them. That came in the meeting between two of the six, Connacht defeating Zebre. Cardiff Blues got a bonus point at Sale, but Treviso and Edinburgh drew blanks while Newport Gwent Dragons were losing to Wasps in the Amlin Challenge Cup.

Last weekend saw the five draw a blank, despite four of them having home advantage. The Blues and Connacht lost by eight points to Toulon and Harlequins respectively, while Glasgow were 11 points behind Ulster and Treviso lost to Toulouse by 12, although they led 18-9 at half-time. Edinburgh got nothing times two at Munster, failing to score a point for the second successive week.

Looked at from a national perspective, Italy and Scotland both suffered four defeats in four and Wales managed one victory in six. England's record of seven victories and five defeats includes 100% records for Harlequins and Saracens, France have made a strong start with 10 wins and four losses but Ireland have the best percentage record with six successes and two reverses.

There may be four rounds to go, but Ospreys look the only team with any prospect of challenging the Ireland-England-France axis and their next matches are the head-to-head encounters with Toulouse following the autumn internationals, a time when the Welsh regions tend to struggle for momentum having lost their players to the national squad for five weeks.

The stakeholders of European Rugby Cup Ltd continue their bid to find a participation agreement that everyone is prepared to sign, but this season's Heineken Cup has so far offered succour only to those who want to make it more exclusive.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oc ... tland-team

[fourthirtythree]

Cherry picking your data set Paul just a tad? Try last year mate!

Grauniad + Torygraph v Murdoch
BBC + BT v Murdoch

That's all any of the coverage emanating from England amounts to. Not one whit more.

[TrapperChamonix]

One of the great bug bears of the AV team managers & by extension the press is that the Rabo Teams have an unfair advantage in how we are able to prepare for the HCup. Yet there has been no mention of the fact that the RFU scheduled a game v's the AB's for the week before round 3 of the HCup. So how did that work out for them?
English clubs played 6 lost 3 won 3. Of the 3 they won 2 were v Italian teams and 1 was against Scarletts (where the WRU had similar scheduling sympathies with their clubs).
While we are at it. Welsh clubs played 3 lost 3.

While I wouldn't take anything away from the performance of Munster or Ulster, if Northampton and or Saracens go out of the competition a hefty part of the blame can be placed at the door or the RFU.

[Donny B.]

One of the great bug bears of the AV team managers & by extension the press is that the Rabo Teams have an unfair advantage in how we are able to prepare for the HCup. Yet there has been no mention of the fact that the RFU scheduled a game v's the AB's for the week before round 3 of the HCup. So how did that work out for them?
English clubs played 6 lost 3 won 3. Of the 3 they won 2 were v Italian teams and 1 was against Scarletts (where the WRU had similar scheduling sympathies with their clubs).
While we are at it. Welsh clubs played 3 lost 3.

While I wouldn't take anything away from the performance of Munster or Ulster, if Northampton and or Saracens go out of the competition a hefty part of the blame can be placed at the door or the RFU.

As well as the fact that they're both massively over-rated. It's a fair point though.

[OTT]

One of the great bug bears of the AV team managers & by extension the press is that the Rabo Teams have an unfair advantage in how we are able to prepare for the HCup. Yet there has been no mention of the fact that the RFU scheduled a game v's the AB's for the week before round 3 of the HCup. So how did that work out for them?
English clubs played 6 lost 3 won 3. Of the 3 they won 2 were v Italian teams and 1 was against Scarletts (where the WRU had similar scheduling sympathies with their clubs).
While we are at it. Welsh clubs played 3 lost 3.

While I wouldn't take anything away from the performance of Munster or Ulster, if Northampton and or Saracens go out of the competition a hefty part of the blame can be placed at the door or the RFU.

As well as the fact that they're both massively over-rated. It's a fair point though.

Yeah but the Clubs and the RFU have never been on the same side. The RFU wanted regional teams at the start of the professional era, they fought and fought with the clubs over player releases for years, they were not a part of the clubs breakaway European competition plans and I believe have said they are against it. So the extra England match in the Autumn series has actually given the clubs a bit of creedence (unfortunately) in their pursuit of fairness (or greed to some).