Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[The Doc]

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys

I saw the Ponty are bringing 2,500 to their away B&I game against the Pirates - it shows there is some foundation there. If they were seeded with some centrally contracted development players they could be the base for a second division.

That is a serious crowd for a club team to take to an away game. Am I wrong or have there been welsh pro12 games with less at them.

Throw in a few similar Welsh teams our B&I teams and a few other and you have a league. We are already spending money on them so the cost of getting it going should not be too high. Over time swap in new teams from new territories.

Throw in a few pints and I think we can sort the rest of the worlds problems over lunch.

They are bringin 2.5k to a ground with capacity of 3.5k - no 25% restriction in the B&I

[Beckenham Wasp]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

RRW are the root cause of the problems of the game in wales and are also the biggest problem with the pro 12 going forward in the future.

We all know they want to play in England, they don't care if this destabilises the national team, the grass roots team and damned sure they don't care if it affects the other pro 12 nations.

If we could get the best players contracted to the wru (who are committed to the pro 12) that would be the ideal solution even if the current regions then walked away, we could replace them with the same players but in other areas of Wales, North Wales and a Pontypridd based valley side would jump at the chance.

If we are looking to create more depth to the pro 12, a celtic side side based in London would be a great idea , big ex pat following, attractive place for players to join and would be a great place for attracting away fans for the weekend.

If that can't be done I suppose a Romanian or Georgian side is the next best option although an annual visit to Barcelona would be attractive to!

No the problem with Welsh rugby is that the WRU board are hoarding cash and starving the professional teams and the amateur clubs of money. The WRU is massively over centralised and top heavy.

As with most things in Welsh rugby it is all about petty politics with the WRU engaged in turf war with RRW and its own clubs. From an outsiders point of view it is bizarre. For the purposes of political control the WRU are trying to run the Welsh national team in isolation from the rest of Welsh rugby. Even then it doesn't want to pay the wages of its internationals and tries to free ride off the back of the Regions and the French clubs.

If the WRU wants full control of the professional game then it has to centrally contract every professional rugby player in Wales. Like the IRFU or the NZRFU does. The WRU can't expect to have full political control on the cheap and it can't just cherry pick 15 or 20 of the best players and expect the professional teams to deal with the dregs. Alternatively they could actually try and genuinely co-operate with the professional teams rather than just trying to screw them all the time.

By all accounts the grass roots game in Wales is in crisis. The amateur clubs have falling participation rates and rugby is shirking within the schools too. It is a right mess and that is the WRU's doing not the professional teams or anyone else.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Moffat insurgency doesn't rally support amongst the junior clubs and sweeps the current WRU board out of power.

[Beckenham Wasp]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

RRW are the root cause of the problems of the game in wales and are also the biggest problem with the pro 12 going forward in the future.

We all know they want to play in England, they don't care if this destabilises the national team, the grass roots team and damned sure they don't care if it affects the other pro 12 nations.

If we could get the best players contracted to the wru (who are committed to the pro 12) that would be the ideal solution even if the current regions then walked away, we could replace them with the same players but in other areas of Wales, North Wales and a Pontypridd based valley side would jump at the chance.

If we are looking to create more depth to the pro 12, a celtic side side based in London would be a great idea , big ex pat following, attractive place for players to join and would be a great place for attracting away fans for the weekend.

If that can't be done I suppose a Romanian or Georgian side is the next best option although an annual visit to Barcelona would be attractive to!

Extending the pro12 with teams from new countries is a drum I bang too often. I think it is really worth looking at as it expands the reach of the league and the potential tv audience.

The london team idea I do like and have also mentioned before but I believe it would have to pass the RFU and I cannot see them letting it happen. They may in general be open to it but the prl would throw their toys out of the pram.

On the Welsh problem, central contracts would help to stabilise the situation and allow new teams to be created when the current ones go to the wall. Not sure it is going so well as a concept at the moment.

I would be interested in your views on them taking a longer view of the situation. Back some more representative regional teams that work directly with the local clubs and get them into the eruropean third division being suggested, the B&I, a div2 of the pro12 or whatever is available. As the current teams run into financial trouble let them go to the wall and replace them with the new teams. Also over time you would starve them of talent as all the players coming up through the grass routes would be filtered into the new teams. Maybe make these new teams and the current one qualify for the pro12 spots.

All I know is something has to happen to strengthen the product. Much as I like seeing us win I do not think it helps the league that we are often disappointed not to get a bonus point against some of the welsh teams. Bonus points should be more difficult to earn.

Expansion of the Pro12 into other countries is pie in the sky nonsense. The Pro12 can barely afford to accommodate the Italians as it is let alone the Spanish, Belgians, Portuguese, Romanians etc. Better learn to walk before you can run.

[blockhead]

People can talk all they long about which league they think is better. They can talk money, entertainment value, tv coverage, and on and on and on. Only in competition can the strengths of each league in comparison to each other be truely assessed. Judging by the last 8 or so years you would have to say that the PRL have a lot of catching up to do.

[cormac]

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys

I saw the Ponty are bringing 2,500 to their away B&I game against the Pirates - it shows there is some foundation there. If they were seeded with some centrally contracted development players they could be the base for a second division.

They are in their hoop bringing 2,500 fans to Cornwall. They've got six buses going.

[BlueBlue]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

Understand where you are coming from in this and appreciate why you feel this way but I really believe that we need to try to work to getting the Welsh regions more competitive so that the game in Europe becomes stronger rather than as a defence mechanism against the RRW threatening to leave.

I would like to see a scenario where the Pro12 is demonstrably a stronger league that the AP for example. We don't have this at the moment but if by way of example the sides that are say 7th - 10th in the Pro12 are regularly beating sides from the AP in whatever the new Amlin CC is then there is a renewed argument (not that I suspect to ever succeed) that on merit the Pro12 should have more teams in the European Cup. I suspect the French and English will say that if this occurs the Pro12 will get an 8th side in the EC from next season because the play offs allow one extra place this way.

But the truth is that the new division of money will in the long run anyway harm the sides outside England and France. That is of course the major flaw in the new competition. It will make England and France far stronger and weaken the Pro12 sides. Whether the old system was unfair can be argued (and maybe it was) but the new one is no fairer in a sporting sense. In fact it will diminish the four Pro12 nations not improve them.

I would also welcome a second tier Pro12, but the trouble is that this would require significant investment and with a smaller share of European Cup money this in fact looks further away rather than closer.

If however there is really to be a third tier European Competition then perhaps we should use this as an embryonic Pro12 promotion/relegation competition. If the last team in the Pro12 drops down to this competition and the winner of it is promoted to the Pro12 (maybe a playoff between 11th and the runner up) we might use this to truly develop the Pro12 into a more competitive league. I haven't examined the numbers though, but if the EC will lose 4 teams to what was the Amlin presumably there is less room there for teams from Portugal, Spain, Romania etc. This suggestion would only work if Tier 2 Europe did not already have Spanish, Portuguese, Georgian, Romanian sides, and/or if there were no French or English teams in the Tier 3 European Competition.

[I was recently surprised at the interest in Rugby in Spain. Only last month I was asked by the head of a firm in Madrid for recommendations of restaurants in Cardiff(!) because the he was bringing ten people from Madrid to Cardiff to see Wales Scotland on the last day of the 6 Nations.]

I could not agree more on your 1st point of making the welsh teams more competitive, I actually think the PR0-12 as a comp is going to benefit very well with increase competition to qualify for Europe and sky on board, I've heard positive things about a new title sponsor also. But if this is plan A, have a plan B

Also the 2nd tier euro comp will be made up of whats left in the 3 main 6N leagues, 5 from pro-12, 5 or 6 from England, and 7 or 8 from France, that's 18 top flight teams joined by 2 teams coming from the 3rd tier. So there are plenty of teams out there looking for rugby, the problem is not numbers its the gulf between our A-teams or academy players and the level of say a Romanian team. I would propose a Pr0-12 second division without promotion until this gap closes.

[BlueBlue]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

RRW are the root cause of the problems of the game in wales and are also the biggest problem with the pro 12 going forward in the future.

We all know they want to play in England, they don't care if this destabilises the national team, the grass roots team and damned sure they don't care if it affects the other pro 12 nations.

If we could get the best players contracted to the wru (who are committed to the pro 12) that would be the ideal solution even if the current regions then walked away, we could replace them with the same players but in other areas of Wales, North Wales and a Pontypridd based valley side would jump at the chance.

If we are looking to create more depth to the pro 12, a celtic side side based in London would be a great idea , big ex pat following, attractive place for players to join and would be a great place for attracting away fans for the weekend.

If that can't be done I suppose a Romanian or Georgian side is the next best option although an annual visit to Barcelona would be attractive to!

JB 1973, I know you are a welsh fan and I agree that central contracts with the WRU would be ideal, but surly its too late for that ? would shared contracts not be a better idea, it effectively ties the RRW to The WRU ( I know RRW will resist) , but it results in the desired outcome, the RRW would be too tied into the WRU to just walk. The IRFU can do business with the WRU, the western mail around x-mas time had a survey of grass roots rugby folk / clubs in wales, a majority favoured joint contracts as a way out of the in-fighting and players leaving wales. If the IRFU can afford 25ish central contracts, WRU should be able to afford 40 joint contracts. That's a lot of players.

[BlueBlue]

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys

I saw the Ponty are bringing 2,500 to their away B&I game against the Pirates - it shows there is some foundation there. If they were seeded with some centrally contracted development players they could be the base for a second division.

That is a serious crowd for a club team to take to an away game. Am I wrong or have there been welsh pro12 games with less at them.

Throw in a few similar Welsh teams our B&I teams and a few other and you have a league. We are already spending money on them so the cost of getting it going should not be too high. Over time swap in new teams from new territories.

Throw in a few pints and I think we can sort the rest of the worlds problems over lunch.

But would this not be a repeat of the welsh problem we have now, super clubs but not actual regions. If the WRU are to start over the new regional teams would need to be new entities . I don't think the WRU doing this will progress anything, they have to find a way of working jointly, solidly with the existing regions, and turn them into actual regions. What say you JB 1973, I KNOW YOU DONT LIKE THE RRW CREW, but hand on heart they are going to be in Welsh rugby's future, surly the WRU can be smarter about how it plans its future and relationship with the RRW.

[Fireworks]

our strategy with the welsh should be to put ourselves into a position where the welsh, or more accurately the RRW are not needed. The Pro-12 needs to be viable without the welsh RRW. The major pressure point thAT PRL can apply TO THE irfu is by flirting with the RRW, and attracting them over to their side with offers that will never happen. The PRL and the RRW doing this is no great mystery or conspiracy, they are suits not blazers, they are one and the same club owners. The RRW will always be coming from a different prospective than the IRFU. RRW and PRL are natural bedfellows, IRFU/ WRU and RRW are chalk and cheese. What would be shocking therefore is not that the RRW might be followed again, but rather it would be shocking if we, Irish rugby people and the IRFU were surprised again.

The answer is simple, Italy Ireland and Scotland need to create a competition that is viable without the RRW, that does not mean that RRW are excluded, it simply means we can say good bye to them in the event that they get fooled again. This takes away PRL's pressure point and RRW position of king maker. If Scotland, Italy and Ireland work together we can be very powerful, but it has to be from a position of being viable on our own. PRL are not really our problem, PRL are just an entity pulling the most out for itself. If the IRFU are disappointed in this, they need to grow up, if we the fans don't understand that this is the way it is, we need to grow up. There are a number of ways we can have a viable Pro-12 without the RRW, the easiest of which is to support the WRU in bringing contract sharing to Wales, if the WRU held 50% of the pro-contracts of 30 to 40 welsh players that would effectively tie the RRW into the WRU, also the WRU owning 1 of the 3 teams could be a way to go, the WRU had this opportunity when they bailed out Scarlet's, also the own a substantial share in Dragons. Of course the RRW wont want this, but there are ways of forcing it to happen. The other things that might be done are...

Make Connacht truly competitive.
Make Edinburgh Truly competitive.
Make Zebre more competitive and look at the possibility of 1 more Italian team.
Start a Div 2 made up of Pro-12 academy teams and teams from Romania, Georgia, Belgium, Portugal and Spain. The idea of a div 2 is to get 2nd tier nations teams to progress to a level where they could join the Pro 10 or 12 if the RRW were to leave. We all know the RRW will not leave, but the RRW can threaten, and the PRL can leverage this.

Understand where you are coming from in this and appreciate why you feel this way but I really believe that we need to try to work to getting the Welsh regions more competitive so that the game in Europe becomes stronger rather than as a defence mechanism against the RRW threatening to leave.

I would like to see a scenario where the Pro12 is demonstrably a stronger league that the AP for example. We don't have this at the moment but if by way of example the sides that are say 7th - 10th in the Pro12 are regularly beating sides from the AP in whatever the new Amlin CC is then there is a renewed argument (not that I suspect to ever succeed) that on merit the Pro12 should have more teams in the European Cup. I suspect the French and English will say that if this occurs the Pro12 will get an 8th side in the EC from next season because the play offs allow one extra place this way.

But the truth is that the new division of money will in the long run anyway harm the sides outside England and France. That is of course the major flaw in the new competition. It will make England and France far stronger and weaken the Pro12 sides. Whether the old system was unfair can be argued (and maybe it was) but the new one is no fairer in a sporting sense. In fact it will diminish the four Pro12 nations not improve them.

I would also welcome a second tier Pro12, but the trouble is that this would require significant investment and with a smaller share of European Cup money this in fact looks further away rather than closer.

If however there is really to be a third tier European Competition then perhaps we should use this as an embryonic Pro12 promotion/relegation competition. If the last team in the Pro12 drops down to this competition and the winner of it is promoted to the Pro12 (maybe a playoff between 11th and the runner up) we might use this to truly develop the Pro12 into a more competitive league. I haven't examined the numbers though, but if the EC will lose 4 teams to what was the Amlin presumably there is less room there for teams from Portugal, Spain, Romania etc. This suggestion would only work if Tier 2 Europe did not already have Spanish, Portuguese, Georgian, Romanian sides, and/or if there were no French or English teams in the Tier 3 European Competition.

[I was recently surprised at the interest in Rugby in Spain. Only last month I was asked by the head of a firm in Madrid for recommendations of restaurants in Cardiff(!) because the he was bringing ten people from Madrid to Cardiff to see Wales Scotland on the last day of the 6 Nations.]

I could not agree more on your 1st point of making the welsh teams more competitive, I actually think the PR0-12 as a comp is going to benefit very well with increase competition to qualify for Europe and sky on board, I've heard positive things about a new title sponsor also. But if this is plan A, have a plan B

Also the 2nd tier euro comp will be made up of whats left in the 3 main 6N leagues, 5 from pro-12, 5 or 6 from England, and 7 or 8 from France, that's 18 top flight teams joined by 2 teams coming from the 3rd tier. So there are plenty of teams out there looking for rugby, the problem is not numbers its the gulf between our A-teams or academy players and the level of say a Romanian team. I would propose a Pr0-12 second division without promotion until this gap closes.

Only way to do it at the start is with no promotion. When they get stronger move to a playoff. The beauty of a playoff is that even if they are not strong enough yet it is a big game and it is a proper test of their standard without the risk of promoting a team to be slaughtered by the big boys.

[Hornet]

Pontypridd would be a flagship side for the valleys

I saw the Ponty are bringing 2,500 to their away B&I game against the Pirates - it shows there is some foundation there. If they were seeded with some centrally contracted development players they could be the base for a second division.

They are in their hoop bringing 2,500 fans to Cornwall. They've got six buses going.

Why wouldn't they take 2.5K fans. They do own cars in Wales. Plus, with the Railway at Dawlish opening tomorrow, they can get the train. We are taking 2.5K to Toulon and I don't think there is a single bus doing the whole journey!

[JB1973]

I'd take shared contracts as a start, in effect both party's know this is something that must happen.

If all our best players depart overseas it will affect the test team (lack of preparation time, not being allowed to play matches out of the irb calendar) it will affect the regions (gates will drop, chance of success will drop even further)

This is a common sense solution but common sense is very much lacking in welsh rugby.

As for Pontyrpridd RFC their average gate is what 1800 to 2,000 I doubt they'll be taking 2500 to a cup game but I would expect them to be 1000 or so there and they will make some noise!.

The daft thing is Pontypridd have a big fan base who are desperate to support a team, Cardiff blues are a side that is desperate for this support yet the blues refusal to embrace anything outside of the city of Cardiff is isolating all these people.

[Fireworks]

I'd take shared contracts as a start, in effect both party's know this is something that must happen.

If all our best players depart overseas it will affect the test team (lack of preparation time, not being allowed to play matches out of the irb calendar) it will affect the regions (gates will drop, chance of success will drop even further)

This is a common sense solution but common sense is very much lacking in welsh rugby.

As for Pontyrpridd RFC their average gate is what 1800 to 2,000 I doubt they'll be taking 2500 to a cup game but I would expect them to be 1000 or so there and they will make some noise!.

The daft thing is Pontypridd have a big fan base who are desperate to support a team, Cardiff blues are a side that is desperate for this support yet the blues refusal to embrace anything outside of the city of Cardiff is isolating all these people.

Someone made a good point that using Pontypridd would feed back in to the current rivalry troubles. It might be better to go with a clean sheet approach and to built regional teams from the ground but with the Pontypidd's of this world having a share in the region and feeding it with talent.

[simonokeeffe]

when do WRFU pay off Millenium stadium debt? when they do that they can have all the central contracts they want

4 home autumn games and a few grand slams must have eaten into that bigtime

[simonokeeffe]

when do WRFU pay off Millenium stadium debt? when they do that they can have all the central contracts they want

4 home autumn games and a few grand slams must have eaten into that bigtime

now that I look into it it cost 75 million after grants, theyve had 15 years, presumably get rent from soccer matches, concerts etc, they must be damn close to paying it off

[Beckenham Wasp]

I'd take shared contracts as a start, in effect both party's know this is something that must happen.

If all our best players depart overseas it will affect the test team (lack of preparation time, not being allowed to play matches out of the irb calendar) it will affect the regions (gates will drop, chance of success will drop even further)

This is a common sense solution but common sense is very much lacking in welsh rugby.

As for Pontyrpridd RFC their average gate is what 1800 to 2,000 I doubt they'll be taking 2500 to a cup game but I would expect them to be 1000 or so there and they will make some noise!.

The daft thing is Pontypridd have a big fan base who are desperate to support a team, Cardiff blues are a side that is desperate for this support yet the blues refusal to embrace anything outside of the city of Cardiff is isolating all these people.

What would you call a team based in Cardiff that people from Pontypridd would want to support? What name would you use? East Glamorgan? The Valley Blues? There isn't any natural affinity between the two. Changing the name and the colour of shirts wouldn't change the fact that they would play the vast majority of their games at the Arms Park and would be primarily indentifed as Cardiff's side.

Pontypridd had their chance with Bridgend as part of the Cetlic Warriors but they blew it. Ponty sold their stake after just one season and the WRU decided to close the Warriors down after Bridgend's owner refused to fund them any more.

If the Cetlic Warriors had the private backing to be reformed then great but I doubt that is going to be forthcoming as Wales struggles to support the 4 teams it already has.

[JB1973]

"What would you call a team based in Cardiff that people from Pontypridd would want to support? What name would you use? East Glamorgan? The Valley Blues? There isn't any natural affinity between the two."

the same was said about Swansea and Neath when the Ospreys were formed, but no one even mentions it.

Common sense dictates you'll have far more chance of getting fans from outside Cardiff if you have a neutral name (Glamorgan ?) play in a new kit and play your lv games around the region. The team can still be based in Cardiff but at least it would represent the whole of the region then.

Sorry BW but there is no logical argument you or the blues board can put forward that can disagree with the above.

I'm just glad your here to give me your in depth analysis of welsh rugby I'd be lost without it

[Beckenham Wasp]

when do WRFU pay off Millenium stadium debt? when they do that they can have all the central contracts they want

4 home autumn games and a few grand slams must have eaten into that bigtime

now that I look into it it cost 75 million after grants, theyve had 15 years, presumably get rent from soccer matches, concerts etc, they must be damn close to paying it off

Part of the problem is the WRU is paying down the debt of the Millenium Stadium twice as quickly as they need to and taking money away for the clubs and the professional teams to do so.

Rightly they believe that strengthens the central WRU vs the clubs and the professional teams. It is cynical and it isn't in the interests of Welsh rugby as a whole.

[Beckenham Wasp]

"What would you call a team based in Cardiff that people from Pontypridd would want to support? What name would you use? East Glamorgan? The Valley Blues? There isn't any natural affinity between the two."

the same was said about Swansea and Neath when the Ospreys were formed, but no one even mentions it.

Common sense dictates you'll have far more chance of getting fans from outside Cardiff if you have a neutral name (Glamorgan ?) play in a new kit and play your lv games around the region. The team can still be based in Cardiff but at least it would represent the whole of the region then.

Sorry BW but there is no logical argument you or the blues board can put forward that can disagree with the above.

I'm just glad your here to give me your in depth analysis of welsh rugby I'd be lost without it

There are a few differences between the Ospreys and the Cardiff and Ponty situation. Firstly the Ospreys is an equal partnership between two clubs of a similar standing and a partnership of equals. It still is. In a Cardiff and Ponty tie up Cardiff were always going to be the dominant party. More money, more supporters, more everything.

Also soon after they were created Ospreys moved into a new shared stadium that wasn't affiliated to either of the two clubs giving the new team a sense of it own identity in a way they wouldn't have had if they played predominantly at one of the two old grounds.

Thirdly Ponty aren't bringing anything to the table. They tried to remain at the top table with the Celtic Warriors but they ran out of money after less than one season and they went bust. If Ponty slapped a wad of cash on the table and said to the Cardiff Blues that they wanted a slice of the action then fair enough. They haven't and they won't. Most people in Ponty are still deluding themselves that they can create a 5th professional team based just in the Valleys.

Also the "Regions" aren't regional teams. They are private professional teams owned by clubs and funded by private individuals. The Ospreys are still the Neath-Swansea Ospreys and they all ways will be so long as they are owned by Neath and Swansea. Bridgend and no other clubs in West or South Glamorgan own them or fund them. The same goes for all the "Regions". So long as Llanelli, Swansea, Neath, Cardiff and Newport remain the owners that bankroll professional rugby in Wales the "Regions" will remain will just be rebadged club sides and will behave as such. The Blues "region" doesn't exist. It is just a professional team owned by Cardiff RFC.

If the WRU wants proper Regional teams then it has to put its hands in its pocket and fund professional rugby in Wales unaided. It has to centrally contract all of the professional players and coaches, commercially manage them and find grounds that they can play at.

[enby]

It must be great to be a know-all, BW. I envy your absolute conviction that you are right on such diverse topics as Welsh rugby, salary caps, World Cup venues, Pro12 attendances, PRL finances etc etc.

We are not worthy

[paddyor]

Part of the problem is the WRU is paying down the debt of the Millenium Stadium twice as quickly as they need to and taking money away for the clubs and the professional teams to do so.

Rightly they believe that strengthens the central WRU vs the clubs and the professional teams. It is cynical and it isn't in the interests of Welsh rugby as a whole.

Is that a fact. Like it's twice as quickly as they need to or is it in you or someone else's opinion "twice". The RRW are quite separate from the rest of the game in Wales and have little support amongst the Welsh public and clubs to the position on the stadium debt of the WRU. A majority want rid of it and are prepared to take the short-medium term pain for the long term gain. It's also a big contrast to the Scots whose stadium debt is stabilized but not falling and have invested heavily in it's 2(3) "regional" teams with little in the way of any tangible gain.

The RRW btw are hardly a great example of private ownership. The PWC report was scathing in it's assessment of their running of the club game(no marketing, expensive shoddy imports etc.). Increasingly their budgets make a huge difference in retaining the talent they need to be competitive but they were mostly a shambles before that became an issue. Why should the WRU pump so much money into loss making privately owned organizations that do so little to promote the game in Wales(I'd also argue deliver talent as they seem to have terrible coaching).

The difficulty of the clubs beneath the pro level is mirrored in other parts of the world and isn't just due to a lack of funding. There are many factors, economic, increased competition from soccer, demographic changes etc. They don't seem to blame all this on the WRU though. I followed a conversation between a Welsh Assembly member and Simon Thomas on twitter and his view was he asked the local clubs in Rhondda(IIRC his constituency) if they had an issue with it and they said no. There's a disconnect between the RRW and other clubs such that the others see their interests being in conflict with the RRWs.