Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby JB1973 » April 3rd, 2014, 5:35 pm

Beckenham Wasp wrote:
JB1973 wrote:"What would you call a team based in Cardiff that people from Pontypridd would want to support? What name would you use? East Glamorgan? The Valley Blues? There isn't any natural affinity between the two."

the same was said about Swansea and Neath when the Ospreys were formed, but no one even mentions it.

Common sense dictates you'll have far more chance of getting fans from outside Cardiff if you have a neutral name (Glamorgan ?) play in a new kit and play your lv games around the region. The team can still be based in Cardiff but at least it would represent the whole of the region then.

Sorry BW but there is no logical argument you or the blues board can put forward that can disagree with the above.

I'm just glad your here to give me your in depth analysis of welsh rugby I'd be lost without it :)


There are a few differences between the Ospreys and the Cardiff and Ponty situation. Firstly the Ospreys is an equal partnership between two clubs of a similar standing and a partnership of equals. It still is. In a Cardiff and Ponty tie up Cardiff were always going to be the dominant party. More money, more supporters, more everything.

Also soon after they were created Ospreys moved into a new shared stadium that wasn't affiliated to either of the two clubs giving the new team a sense of it own identity in a way they wouldn't have had if they played predominantly at one of the two old grounds.

Thirdly Ponty aren't bringing anything to the table. They tried to remain at the top table with the Celtic Warriors but they ran out of money after less than one season and they went bust. If Ponty slapped a wad of cash on the table and said to the Cardiff Blues that they wanted a slice of the action then fair enough. They haven't and they won't. Most people in Ponty are still deluding themselves that they can create a 5th professional team based just in the Valleys.

Also the "Regions" aren't regional teams. They are private professional teams owned by clubs and funded by private individuals. The Ospreys are still the Neath-Swansea Ospreys and they all ways will be so long as they are owned by Neath and Swansea. Bridgend and no other clubs in West or South Glamorgan own them or fund them. The same goes for all the "Regions". So long as Llanelli, Swansea, Neath, Cardiff and Newport remain the owners that bankroll professional rugby in Wales the "Regions" will remain will just be rebadged club sides and will behave as such. The Blues "region" doesn't exist. It is just a professional team owned by Cardiff RFC.

If the WRU wants proper Regional teams then it has to put its hands in its pocket and fund professional rugby in Wales unaided. It has to centrally contract all of the professional players and coaches, commercially manage them and find grounds that they can play at.




sorry to rain on your parade but the ospreys are actually the majority shareholders of bridgend rfc so i do think they are part of the set up, we also play our home lc cup games there .

I'm not sure where your getting that neath/swansea own the ospreys from either, if you mean some of the shareholders were ex directors at swansea and neath then you maybe on the right track
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Lar » April 3rd, 2014, 5:59 pm

JB - your earlier use of 'logic', 'BW' and 'common sense' in the same post has single-handedly undone all the good posts you have posted on here (and most of your 870 before now have been in this category).
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby JB1973 » April 3rd, 2014, 6:30 pm

:D
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby cormac » April 3rd, 2014, 6:52 pm

Hornet wrote:
cormac wrote:
They are in their hoop bringing 2,500 fans to Cornwall. They've got six buses going.

Why wouldn't they take 2.5K fans. They do own cars in Wales. Plus, with the Railway at Dawlish opening tomorrow, they can get the train. We are taking 2.5K to Toulon and I don't think there is a single bus doing the whole journey!


It's about double their average home attendance. They have a decent sized fanbase for a semi-pro team but they'd be lucky to take a quarter of that 2.5k total to Cornwall.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby simonokeeffe » April 3rd, 2014, 7:19 pm

looked into it more, as of Autumn 2012 WRFU owed 19m on Millenium stadium, by that rate of attrition theyre down to about 10m end of this season

so

2 or 3 years time WRFU are rich as anything and can seriously invest in central deals

or

they could restructure debt now and do same (but they dont seem to want to)
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby paddyor » April 3rd, 2014, 7:35 pm

RRW in lucrative deal with BT Sport
It was posted on 1st of April but the author insists it's genuine.

BT pretty much paid them to support the PRL and the RCC. There's an element of guerilla marketing as with the scottish teams I think but I'm inclined to think it was more for torpedoing the ERC.

No word yet on the FFR being happy with the BT-PRL deal.....
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Hornet » April 3rd, 2014, 9:32 pm

enby wrote:It must be great to be a know-all, BW. I envy your absolute conviction that you are right on such diverse topics as Welsh rugby, salary caps, World Cup venues, Pro12 attendances, PRL finances etc etc.

We are not worthy

Classic symptoms of being a Billy no mates. Wait until he starts banging on with his xenophobic views of Irish History. It will crack you up. Look on the bright side. The Munsterfans forum had cracked and banned him a long time back. We must be made of sterner stuff!
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby JB1973 » April 3rd, 2014, 10:51 pm

cormac wrote:
Hornet wrote:
cormac wrote:
They are in their hoop bringing 2,500 fans to Cornwall. They've got six buses going.

Why wouldn't they take 2.5K fans. They do own cars in Wales. Plus, with the Railway at Dawlish opening tomorrow, they can get the train. We are taking 2.5K to Toulon and I don't think there is a single bus doing the whole journey!


It's about double their average home attendance. They have a decent sized fanbase for a semi-pro team but they'd be lucky to take a quarter of that 2.5k total to Cornwall.


to be fair the majority of their fans now are die hard ones, this is a big tie for them I'd expect they''ll take a load with them
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby JB1973 » April 3rd, 2014, 10:54 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:looked into it more, as of Autumn 2012 WRFU owed 19m on Millenium stadium, by that rate of attrition theyre down to about 10m end of this season

so

2 or 3 years time WRFU are rich as anything and can seriously invest in central deals

or

they could restructure debt now and do same (but they dont seem to want to)



i still don't understand why we having sold the naming rights to the MS, would seem a lucrative income option to me
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby paddyor » April 4th, 2014, 12:31 am

Hornet wrote:
enby wrote:It must be great to be a know-all, BW. I envy your absolute conviction that you are right on such diverse topics as Welsh rugby, salary caps, World Cup venues, Pro12 attendances, PRL finances etc etc.

We are not worthy

Classic symptoms of being a Billy no mates. Wait until he starts banging on with his xenophobic views of Irish History. It will crack you up. Look on the bright side. The Munsterfans forum had cracked and banned him a long time back. We must be made of sterner stuff!

Go easy on the wasp there's just less people at the games to annoy so he comes on here.

London Irish, London Wasps, Newcastle Falcons, Northampton Saints, Sale Sharks, Saracens and Worcester Warriors have each seen crowds drop for regular home matches compared with the boom year of 2009-10, when the Premiership had its record average attendance since leagues began in 1987.

Wasps have been hardest hit, with the average crowd at Adams Park tumbling from 8,542 in 2009-10 to 5,759 this season, a 32.58 per cent reduction.

Even at the four clubs where crowds have risen – Bath (plus 1.87 per cent), Gloucester (8.69 per cent), Harlequins (10.31 per cent) and Leicester (0.6 per cent) – their stadiums are often short of being sold out.


The rest of the article
Saracens are calling for relegation from the Aviva Premiership to be abolished and the salary cap radically altered to include a minimum spend on players and the scrapping of the upper limit, in order to attract the world’s best players to the competition instead of going to France and Ireland.

The league leaders say it is now or never for England’s clubs to up their spending and take advantage of a “golden opportunity” for growth, with England hosting the World Cup in 2015, Sevens joining the Olympic Games in 2016, and rugby’s values of discipline and respect being compared favourably with football’s.

The demand for change coincides with the negative news that more than half the teams in the Aviva Premiership have suffered a fall in attendances this season compared with the record levels of four years ago.


I think this rubbishes the claim that the AP is as lucrative as the Top14 and also shows that the IRFU were/are well able to compete with them in the event of both losing the HEC revenue. In total I'd say we have maybe 5 high value overseas players in the 4 provinces and maybe 3/4 others of interest to the AP teams.......

But Saracens have been buoyed by turning an estimated £500,000 profit from their club world record 83,889 crowd at Wembley last weekend, and the north London side’s chief executive, Edward Griffiths, believes the likes of Lions stars Leigh Halfpenny, Jamie Roberts and Johnny Sexton and southern-hemisphere luminaries Bryan Habana and Luke McAlister should be diverted from France’s Top 14 into the Premiership.

“For the next three or four years the Premiership collectively needs to take urgent steps to make it loud and clear we are open for business and encouraging people around the world to invest,” said Griffiths.


Ah, ah I see. They won't be happy until they've signed an Irish international will they?

Oh and Nigel Wray wants to sell!
“The salary cap keeps the league competitive but if the best players go to France or Ireland then we won’t be the leading league. And relegation is the sword of Damocles – who wants to invest heavily in a club if they could be out of the league in one season? People say to me, ‘what would happen if an Arab businessman bought a club and wanted to buy Dan Carter and Richie McCaw?’ and I’d say ‘great, fantastic – that’s what the league needs’. We do not need a league of clubs that are just trying to survive. It is no good a promoted club spending £1.5 million on a squad. We don’t just want the salary maximum scrapped or maybe raised by negotiation (it is already going up by £500,000 this year to almost £6 million) but a minimum salary cap of £4 million introduced too. I think three of our 12 clubs were below that last season when they were in survival mode.”

Worcester, London Irish, Sale and Newcastle have suffered double-digit percentage collapses in their attendances compared with 2009-10. Overall, the average attendance for a regular-season Premiership match, not including those played at Wembley, Twickenham and in the play-offs, is 10,537 this season compared to 11,141 in 2009-10.

The overall average crowd for all Premiership matches, including the 10 played at Twickenham and Wembley and in the play-offs, reached a record 13,674 in 2009-10. So far this season, the corresponding figure is 12,294.

“I do recognise some clubs say ‘it’s easy for Saracens to talk like that’,” said Griffiths. “But you get the feeling some clubs are more concerned about what each other are doing, than the collective good. It would be a terrible shame if through caution we missed a golden opportunity. The Premiership presents an outstanding spectacle at an outstanding price. We would be absolutely stupid to sit and do nothing while a league across the Channel is growing and growing.”

I'd love to know how they'd enforce that, if a club didn't/couldn't spend to the salary cap minimum. I love that sentence about some clubs are looking at us and saying we're cheating but they need to realize it's for their own good! I think his fear of the French is well founded though. After the RWC15 I'd say a lot of fringe/unsure England players will hop the channel, Toby Flood being a good example.

Only Saracens, Harlequins, Wasps and Sale (once) have tried the big-stadium idea. “Let Newcastle play at St James’s Park, or Sale at Old Trafford, or Gloucester at the Millennium Stadium,” said Griffiths. “These matches put the league on the grand stage. And clubs need to put proper teams and marquee players into the Premiership’s Sevens competitions. Why can’t we play Premiership Sevens tournaments around the world? I’ve been to China and Brazil, and sevens is all they talk about.”

Saracens, backed by South African investors, have partner clubs in Moscow, Kuala Lumpur, Abu Dhabi, Nairobi, Sao Paulo and Tonga – with Seattle, Timisoara in Romania, and a club in Georgia to follow – who wear their kit and logo and share their community and coaching programmes. “We estimate we could have 40 Saracens players participating at the Rio Olympics under various national colours,” said Griffiths. “And we have an advertising campaign running worldwide on CNBC.”

I'm betting now the last part is how they're getting around the salary cap. Chris Ashton is a mentor to some poor sap in Georgia.......
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby simonokeeffe » April 4th, 2014, 1:09 am

JB1973 wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:looked into it more, as of Autumn 2012 WRFU owed 19m on Millenium stadium, by that rate of attrition theyre down to about 10m end of this season

so

2 or 3 years time WRFU are rich as anything and can seriously invest in central deals

or

they could restructure debt now and do same (but they dont seem to want to)



i still don't understand why we having sold the naming rights to the MS, would seem a lucrative income option to me


could it be to do with grant funding/private investment that part funded it?
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Vamos los azules » April 4th, 2014, 8:24 am

Ugh, Saracens.

I feel sorry for the few decent people involved with the club and the decent work they do but they are buried under so much utter toxicity.

Minimum spend? Seriously??

Come on smaller clubs, spend more, get yourselves into dire financial straits and destroy your clubs so that we can still outspend you and claim we're the best.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby the spoofer » April 4th, 2014, 9:43 am

I really, really,really hope that Ulster beat that shower of cunts.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby John23 » April 4th, 2014, 11:00 am

the spoofer wrote:I really, really,really hope that Ulster beat that shower of cunts.


While I cringe at the choice of language, I entirely concur with the sentiment.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Peg Leg » April 4th, 2014, 11:03 am

paddyor wrote:
Hornet wrote:
enby wrote:It must be great to be a know-all, BW. I envy your absolute conviction that you are right on such diverse topics as Welsh rugby, salary caps, World Cup venues, Pro12 attendances, PRL finances etc etc.

We are not worthy

Classic symptoms of being a Billy no mates. Wait until he starts banging on with his xenophobic views of Irish History. It will crack you up. Look on the bright side. The Munsterfans forum had cracked and banned him a long time back. We must be made of sterner stuff!

Go easy on the wasp there's just less people at the games to annoy so he comes on here.

Nothing to complain about there Paddy, they don't need/want/care about supporters in the stands, they just need/want/care about money!
They get that from BT, so all of their fans can sit at home and cheer from the sofa.
This shite from them reminds me of the scene in "let there be blood" where Daniel Plainview explains how he used his existing lands to drain all of the oil from under everyone else's feet.

So rock on BT GloboSaracensponzi Corp!
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby offshorerules » April 4th, 2014, 11:09 am

I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Hornet » April 4th, 2014, 11:14 am

offshorerules wrote:I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.

The most depressing thing is that they tend to be at their most active during the summer! :cry:
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Peg Leg » April 4th, 2014, 11:20 am

Hornet wrote:
offshorerules wrote:I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.

The most depressing thing is that they tend to be at their most active during the summer! :cry:

Take no heed of this fella.... Everybody know Hornets are the Jealous sisters of the Wasp family!
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Hornet » April 4th, 2014, 11:26 am

Peg Leg wrote:
Hornet wrote:
offshorerules wrote:I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.

The most depressing thing is that they tend to be at their most active during the summer! :cry:

Take no heed of this fella.... Everybody know Hornets are the Jealous sisters of the Wasp family!

Childhood nickname. Play on my surname. Nothing to do with any irritating insect i'm afraid. Sorry. :lol:
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Fireworks » April 4th, 2014, 1:04 pm

offshorerules wrote:I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.


Is there some proof that the offender is male. Would IT not be more appropriate.
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