John23 wrote:Open to correction, but just at a glance this round shows: 6 T14 wins, 5 AP wins and 1 Pro12 win. Could have gone all nerdy on how sh!t Pro12 teams did this weekend but the drink is starting to numb my keyboard skills
This weekend's results were all part of the long term strategy of the Pro 12 sides with a view to getting the English and French parties to shift their negotiating position. Let them have this season's competition to themselves, get the new agreement signed then, bam, Irish sides back in the mix next season once the competition's future has been safely secured
"You can’t defend like the boss one week and the cookie man the next".
Donny B. wrote:Biggest hammering over the weekend with Sale's defeat to Toulon though. Just saying.
The HC has always been cyclical anyway. Still no reason to destroy the tournament to satisfy the greedy, power-hungry b$&%@#ds!
There was a funny(ish) match report in the Sunday Times on Harlequins V Zebre, where the reporter was pontificating on how much of a disgrace it was having Zebre in the HEC, the elite European competition. I was reading it about the same time as Sale were getting stuffed 62-0 and conceding their 9th try.
Donny B. wrote:Biggest hammering over the weekend with Sale's defeat to Toulon though. Just saying.
The HC has always been cyclical anyway. Still no reason to destroy the tournament to satisfy the greedy, power-hungry b$&%@#ds!
There was a funny(ish) match report in the Sunday Times on Harlequins V Zebre, where the reporter was pontificating on how much of a disgrace it was having Zebre in the HEC, the elite European competition. I was reading it about the same time as Sale were getting stuffed 62-0 and conceding their 9th try.
Yeah saw that alright from Nick Cain, again getting the facts to fit the agenda.
It was previously "Pro12 is cr@p so you can rest up and be great in Europe" but now it's switched back to "Pro12 is cr@p so you're also cr@p in Europe". They're such a bunch of lying hypocrites.
I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% confident of my source but.... I was talking to a "friend" who by all accounts does know the IRFU people involved and his story was that it is all pretty much agreed.
20 team HEC with 4 groups of 5 and top 2 to the QF. 20 comprised of top 6 positions in each league plus winners of HEC and Amlin. The top 5 [edit - 6] in the Pro12 to be an absolute top 6 (i.e. no guarantee that all countries represented). I understood this was more to do with the Irish / Welsh position rather than the French / English position - the rationale being that week countries can use the Amlin to build up the teams - this is my interpretation of what was being said - wasn't put that bluntly.
Again - while the guy should know what the situation is, I'm not sure that it is a done deal.
Last edited by The Doc on December 17th, 2012, 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role.
I've got nothing against your right leg.
The trouble is ... neither have you
The Doc wrote:I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% confident of my source but.... I was talking to a "friend" who by all accounts does know the IRFU people involved and his story was that it is all pretty much agreed.
20 team HEC with 4 groups of 5 and top 2 to the QF. 20 comprised of top 6 positions in each league plus winners of HEC and Amlin. The top 5 [edit - 6] in the Pro12 to be an absolute top 6 (i.e. no guarantee that all countries represented). I understood this was more to do with the Irish / Welsh position rather than the French / English position - the rationale being that week countries can use the Amlin to build up the teams - this is my interpretation of what was being said - wasn't put that bluntly.
Again - while the guy should know what the situation is, I'm not sure that it is a done deal.
If that's true, then that's the Heineken Cup dead in the water so in a couple of years. Two less rounds of matches (and the financial ramifications of one less home match's revenue) and home or away instead of home and away will make the competition hugely unfair. Imagine we got Clermont again, whoever got the home match would get a massive advantage. 4 groups of five would also lead to a load of English v English and French v French clashes, God help us.
If the IRFU people agreed to this, they should be ashamed of themselves.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I hate the idea of one team having the weekend off.
Pretty much hate everything about it, but if it has to be twenty teams, surely 5 groups of four with the existing home and away structure would make more sense? If it's all the placate the French so they can fit in more rounds of awful Top14 garbage then they've really betrayed a great tournament.
I'm not sure the gates are all that important in the context of these negotiations, its all about the telly money and locking that down. As long as you have a stranglehold on the goose laying golden eggs it doesn't seem to matter if you're killing it.
The Doc wrote:I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% confident of my source but.... I was talking to a "friend" who by all accounts does know the IRFU people involved and his story was that it is all pretty much agreed.
20 team HEC with 4 groups of 5 and top 2 to the QF. 20 comprised of top 6 positions in each league plus winners of HEC and Amlin. The top 5 [edit - 6] in the Pro12 to be an absolute top 6 (i.e. no guarantee that all countries represented). I understood this was more to do with the Irish / Welsh position rather than the French / English position - the rationale being that week countries can use the Amlin to build up the teams - this is my interpretation of what was being said - wasn't put that bluntly.
Again - while the guy should know what the situation is, I'm not sure that it is a done deal.
If that's true, then that's the Heineken Cup dead in the water so in a couple of years. Two less rounds of matches (and the financial ramifications of one less home match's revenue) and home or away instead of home and away will make the competition hugely unfair. Imagine we got Clermont again, whoever got the home match would get a massive advantage. 4 groups of five would also lead to a load of English v English and French v French clashes, God help us.
If the IRFU people agreed to this, they should be ashamed of themselves.
maybe I'm reading it wrong, but where does it say about home OR away as opposed to home AND away?
I'm guessing because if it was home and away that would be two extra rounds of games. There's nowhere to fit that in the calendar, so would have to be home or away.
A 20 team HEC could really make the Rabo as a quality competition and then what happens when Rabo teams start (continue) to dominate the HEC again?
Less matches for Irish Rabo teams would give the new Irish coach more time with the Irish squad and would be less disruptive for the provinces assuming the pool matches started later. The B&I cup might get a bit of boost also.
The FrancoSaxons should be careful of what they wish for, because it isn't going to help their national teams.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
way Welsh regions are going they'd be throwing Cardiff to the wolves if that is true
but cant see Scots or Italians agreeing to it and IMO cant see any Celtic nations agreeing to less games in HC
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
I hope the Welsh/Italian/Irish/Scottish unions refuse point blank to sign up to this drivel. If the French and English go off and try to set up an Anglo / French cup, then the 4 other unions should drop England and France from the Six Nations and do a home and away 4 nations until they cop the f%~k on and compromise.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
what are the odds if the Prem got their own way they'd bring in an end to relegation in a year or two and would less HC games facilitate this (including an expanded Prem)?
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
The Doc wrote:I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% confident of my source but.... I was talking to a "friend" who by all accounts does know the IRFU people involved and his story was that it is all pretty much agreed.
20 team HEC with 4 groups of 5 and top 2 to the QF. 20 comprised of top 6 positions in each league plus winners of HEC and Amlin. The top 5 [edit - 6] in the Pro12 to be an absolute top 6 (i.e. no guarantee that all countries represented). I understood this was more to do with the Irish / Welsh position rather than the French / English position - the rationale being that week countries can use the Amlin to build up the teams - this is my interpretation of what was being said - wasn't put that bluntly.
Again - while the guy should know what the situation is, I'm not sure that it is a done deal.
If that's true, then that's the Heineken Cup dead in the water so in a couple of years. Two less rounds of matches (and the financial ramifications of one less home match's revenue) and home or away instead of home and away will make the competition hugely unfair. Imagine we got Clermont again, whoever got the home match would get a massive advantage. 4 groups of five would also lead to a load of English v English and French v French clashes, God help us.
If the IRFU people agreed to this, they should be ashamed of themselves.
maybe I'm reading it wrong, but where does it say about home OR away as opposed to home AND away?
I understood him to mean home and away - so an extra two games - bearing in mind one of the other options was an increase to 32 teams (8 groups of 4) or potentially another knockout round.
They won't reduce games imo because while the gate revenue is not important really, less games means less TV revenue. The real issue is the timing of the competition rather than the number of games - the final happening right in the middle of the season end for everyone. I suspect the English and French clubs would just as happy to keep playing during international windows in the Autumn and create the extra dates there.
I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role.
I've got nothing against your right leg.
The trouble is ... neither have you
Frankly I think eight group games would be too much and would remove a lot of excitement from games because you'd have so much time to make up for defeats.
Can't see the French agreeing to extra games regardless and the thought of playing HC games during the Autumn International would utterly devalue the tournament.
If it has to be 20 teams then surely the same general format could retained by simply having 5 groups of four with 5 winners and 3 best runners up qualifying. Would increase the margin of error for teams and hence reduce the excitement but would still be better than four groups of five.
Random Punter wrote:
What do you make of the latest round of Heineken Cup talks breaking down? What do you think the future of this wonderful tournament should be and can you see the English and French clubs breaking away?
Stuart Barnes wrote:
STUART REPLIES: Mathew, obviously the debate involves Sky so I cannot offer my opinion as an involved party but I do know that while the Accord has time to run, opposing parties are unlikely to give much ground and so it proves... as I write in my column, please don't let the lawyers get involved. There is no absolute right or wrong and so some give and take is essential... we are maybe too far from the deadline for that to happen.
Personally, I would like a 24-team tournament with the three leagues all represented with eight clubs and one guaranteed from each of the four countries represented in the RABO. That would actually make RABO qualification harder than it currently is for the English and French which would answer one of their complaints.
Six pools of four with the other 14 professional teams in the Amlin, supplemented by the winners of the second tier of European international rugby (ie Georgia and Spain would have played this season... the four pool winners joined by the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th best Heineken runners up which would beef the Amlin to boot... so ends my game of 'If I ruled the world'. Perish the thought!!!!
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
One thing seems to be left out of all of this that even Barnes has forgotten about, The English have signed a new tv deal with BT. Now from what I read about this, it goes against the erc's deal with sky for the european games involving English clubs.
I wish I could say different as I quite like the Heineken(with a few tweaks), but it must be dead in the water as far as any English participation,so all the talking is going to be fruitless isn't it? BT would sue the ass off of the PRL if England stayed in and Sky would sue the ERC if the let BT have any of the games,this can only end in tears .
I wonder what the BT ideas are for a "new european competition",that seems to have gone quiet and you would assume talks must be under way in time for 2014?
tigerburnie wrote:One thing seems to be left out of all of this that even Barnes has forgotten about, The English have signed a new tv deal with BT. Now from what I read about this, it goes against the erc's deal with sky for the european games involving English clubs.
I wish I could say different as I quite like the Heineken(with a few tweaks), but it must be dead in the water as far as any English participation,so all the talking is going to be fruitless isn't it? BT would sue the ass off of the PRL if England stayed in and Sky would sue the ERC if the let BT have any of the games,this can only end in tears .
I wonder what the BT ideas are for a "new european competition",that seems to have gone quiet and you would assume talks must be under way in time for 2014?
TB,
There's no way the PRL would have done the deal with BT on the premise that they could be sued if they couldn't force through the change of format. This alliance with BT was a no-lose situation for BT. They want to break up the Sky monopoly but they, and everyone, knows that won't be very easy.
The English can use the BT card for leverage in the negotiation and would prefer that they somehow got BT in there, but nobody is naive enough to think that it's BT or nothing.
