Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Hornet » April 4th, 2014, 1:49 pm

Fireworks wrote:
offshorerules wrote:I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.


Is there some proof that the offender is male. Would IT not be more appropriate.

I will give this lot a call when I am next in London.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby jimbobjoe » April 4th, 2014, 2:05 pm

Hornet wrote:
Fireworks wrote:
offshorerules wrote:I've just learned that the male wasp does not have any sting. It surprised me but it really shouldn't have.


Is there some proof that the offender is male. Would IT not be more appropriate.

I will give this lot a call when I am next in London.
http://beckenham.able-pest.co.uk/wasp-control.html


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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Beckenham Wasp » April 4th, 2014, 11:45 pm

JB1973 wrote:
Beckenham Wasp wrote:
JB1973 wrote:"What would you call a team based in Cardiff that people from Pontypridd would want to support? What name would you use? East Glamorgan? The Valley Blues? There isn't any natural affinity between the two."

the same was said about Swansea and Neath when the Ospreys were formed, but no one even mentions it.

Common sense dictates you'll have far more chance of getting fans from outside Cardiff if you have a neutral name (Glamorgan ?) play in a new kit and play your lv games around the region. The team can still be based in Cardiff but at least it would represent the whole of the region then.

Sorry BW but there is no logical argument you or the blues board can put forward that can disagree with the above.

I'm just glad your here to give me your in depth analysis of welsh rugby I'd be lost without it :)


There are a few differences between the Ospreys and the Cardiff and Ponty situation. Firstly the Ospreys is an equal partnership between two clubs of a similar standing and a partnership of equals. It still is. In a Cardiff and Ponty tie up Cardiff were always going to be the dominant party. More money, more supporters, more everything.

Also soon after they were created Ospreys moved into a new shared stadium that wasn't affiliated to either of the two clubs giving the new team a sense of it own identity in a way they wouldn't have had if they played predominantly at one of the two old grounds.

Thirdly Ponty aren't bringing anything to the table. They tried to remain at the top table with the Celtic Warriors but they ran out of money after less than one season and they went bust. If Ponty slapped a wad of cash on the table and said to the Cardiff Blues that they wanted a slice of the action then fair enough. They haven't and they won't. Most people in Ponty are still deluding themselves that they can create a 5th professional team based just in the Valleys.

Also the "Regions" aren't regional teams. They are private professional teams owned by clubs and funded by private individuals. The Ospreys are still the Neath-Swansea Ospreys and they all ways will be so long as they are owned by Neath and Swansea. Bridgend and no other clubs in West or South Glamorgan own them or fund them. The same goes for all the "Regions". So long as Llanelli, Swansea, Neath, Cardiff and Newport remain the owners that bankroll professional rugby in Wales the "Regions" will remain will just be rebadged club sides and will behave as such. The Blues "region" doesn't exist. It is just a professional team owned by Cardiff RFC.

If the WRU wants proper Regional teams then it has to put its hands in its pocket and fund professional rugby in Wales unaided. It has to centrally contract all of the professional players and coaches, commercially manage them and find grounds that they can play at.




sorry to rain on your parade but the ospreys are actually the majority shareholders of bridgend rfc so i do think they are part of the set up, we also play our home lc cup games there .

I'm not sure where your getting that neath/swansea own the ospreys from either, if you mean some of the shareholders were ex directors at swansea and neath then you maybe on the right track


Neath and Swansea were co-owners of the Ospreys until 2009 when the directors fell out and the Swansea owners and one of the Neath owners bought the team. The Neath shareholder that was forced out, Geriant Hawkes, and who remained in charge of Neath has just been arrested for money laundering. I am sure you are well aware of that.

So from going from being the Neath-Swansea Ospreys they have effectively become just the Swansea Ospreys. Whichever way you look at it the Ospreys are a privately owned and funded professional team. They aren't a "Region". The regional stuff is just window dressing. Playing one 2nd XV game a year in Bridgend doesn't change that. If the WRU wants proper regional or provincial sides it controls then it is going to have to provide 51% of the funding and have all the players centrally contracted.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Peg Leg » April 5th, 2014, 12:03 am

BW, let's talk about communism....
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Beckenham Wasp » April 5th, 2014, 12:04 am

paddyor wrote:
Beckenham Wasp wrote:Part of the problem is the WRU is paying down the debt of the Millenium Stadium twice as quickly as they need to and taking money away for the clubs and the professional teams to do so.

Rightly they believe that strengthens the central WRU vs the clubs and the professional teams. It is cynical and it isn't in the interests of Welsh rugby as a whole.

Is that a fact. Like it's twice as quickly as they need to or is it in you or someone else's opinion "twice". The RRW are quite separate from the rest of the game in Wales and have little support amongst the Welsh public and clubs to the position on the stadium debt of the WRU. A majority want rid of it and are prepared to take the short-medium term pain for the long term gain. It's also a big contrast to the Scots whose stadium debt is stabilized but not falling and have invested heavily in it's 2(3) "regional" teams with little in the way of any tangible gain.

The RRW btw are hardly a great example of private ownership. The PWC report was scathing in it's assessment of their running of the club game(no marketing, expensive shoddy imports etc.). Increasingly their budgets make a huge difference in retaining the talent they need to be competitive but they were mostly a shambles before that became an issue. Why should the WRU pump so much money into loss making privately owned organizations that do so little to promote the game in Wales(I'd also argue deliver talent as they seem to have terrible coaching).

The difficulty of the clubs beneath the pro level is mirrored in other parts of the world and isn't just due to a lack of funding. There are many factors, economic, increased competition from soccer, demographic changes etc. They don't seem to blame all this on the WRU though. I followed a conversation between a Welsh Assembly member and Simon Thomas on twitter and his view was he asked the local clubs in Rhondda(IIRC his constituency) if they had an issue with it and they said no. There's a disconnect between the RRW and other clubs such that the others see their interests being in conflict with the RRWs.


They restructured their repayments in the stadium to pay off the debt twice as fast as they needed to. Imagine if someone did that with their mortgage? They would be eating turnips for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That is what the Welsh clubs are currently doing. Eating turnips. Unnecessarily.

In terms of the RRW the WRU needs to face facts that unless it wants to bankroll the professional game in a Wales it is going to have to work productively with the private owners rather than trying to screw. If it wasn't for the private owners funding the game back in 2003 professional rugby in Wales would have ceased to exist. The WRU was broke. Not a bean.

Also for a country that claims that rugby is its national sport grassroots rugby is in a mess. A real mess. It is in retreat within the schools and the junior clubs are living a hand to mouth existence. The only other place that grassroots rugby is struggling so much is Scotland but rugby has always been a small minority sport in Scotland.

It looks likely that Moffett will get his EGM and it will be interesting to see what happens then.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Beckenham Wasp » April 5th, 2014, 12:21 am

paddyor wrote:
Hornet wrote:
enby wrote:It must be great to be a know-all, BW. I envy your absolute conviction that you are right on such diverse topics as Welsh rugby, salary caps, World Cup venues, Pro12 attendances, PRL finances etc etc.

We are not worthy

Classic symptoms of being a Billy no mates. Wait until he starts banging on with his xenophobic views of Irish History. It will crack you up. Look on the bright side. The Munsterfans forum had cracked and banned him a long time back. We must be made of sterner stuff!

Go easy on the wasp there's just less people at the games to annoy so he comes on here.

London Irish, London Wasps, Newcastle Falcons, Northampton Saints, Sale Sharks, Saracens and Worcester Warriors have each seen crowds drop for regular home matches compared with the boom year of 2009-10, when the Premiership had its record average attendance since leagues began in 1987.

Wasps have been hardest hit, with the average crowd at Adams Park tumbling from 8,542 in 2009-10 to 5,759 this season, a 32.58 per cent reduction.

Even at the four clubs where crowds have risen – Bath (plus 1.87 per cent), Gloucester (8.69 per cent), Harlequins (10.31 per cent) and Leicester (0.6 per cent) – their stadiums are often short of being sold out.


The rest of the article
Saracens are calling for relegation from the Aviva Premiership to be abolished and the salary cap radically altered to include a minimum spend on players and the scrapping of the upper limit, in order to attract the world’s best players to the competition instead of going to France and Ireland.

The league leaders say it is now or never for England’s clubs to up their spending and take advantage of a “golden opportunity” for growth, with England hosting the World Cup in 2015, Sevens joining the Olympic Games in 2016, and rugby’s values of discipline and respect being compared favourably with football’s.

The demand for change coincides with the negative news that more than half the teams in the Aviva Premiership have suffered a fall in attendances this season compared with the record levels of four years ago.


I think this rubbishes the claim that the AP is as lucrative as the Top14 and also shows that the IRFU were/are well able to compete with them in the event of both losing the HEC revenue. In total I'd say we have maybe 5 high value overseas players in the 4 provinces and maybe 3/4 others of interest to the AP teams.......

But Saracens have been buoyed by turning an estimated £500,000 profit from their club world record 83,889 crowd at Wembley last weekend, and the north London side’s chief executive, Edward Griffiths, believes the likes of Lions stars Leigh Halfpenny, Jamie Roberts and Johnny Sexton and southern-hemisphere luminaries Bryan Habana and Luke McAlister should be diverted from France’s Top 14 into the Premiership.

“For the next three or four years the Premiership collectively needs to take urgent steps to make it loud and clear we are open for business and encouraging people around the world to invest,” said Griffiths.


Ah, ah I see. They won't be happy until they've signed an Irish international will they?

Oh and Nigel Wray wants to sell!
“The salary cap keeps the league competitive but if the best players go to France or Ireland then we won’t be the leading league. And relegation is the sword of Damocles – who wants to invest heavily in a club if they could be out of the league in one season? People say to me, ‘what would happen if an Arab businessman bought a club and wanted to buy Dan Carter and Richie McCaw?’ and I’d say ‘great, fantastic – that’s what the league needs’. We do not need a league of clubs that are just trying to survive. It is no good a promoted club spending £1.5 million on a squad. We don’t just want the salary maximum scrapped or maybe raised by negotiation (it is already going up by £500,000 this year to almost £6 million) but a minimum salary cap of £4 million introduced too. I think three of our 12 clubs were below that last season when they were in survival mode.”

Worcester, London Irish, Sale and Newcastle have suffered double-digit percentage collapses in their attendances compared with 2009-10. Overall, the average attendance for a regular-season Premiership match, not including those played at Wembley, Twickenham and in the play-offs, is 10,537 this season compared to 11,141 in 2009-10.

The overall average crowd for all Premiership matches, including the 10 played at Twickenham and Wembley and in the play-offs, reached a record 13,674 in 2009-10. So far this season, the corresponding figure is 12,294.

“I do recognise some clubs say ‘it’s easy for Saracens to talk like that’,” said Griffiths. “But you get the feeling some clubs are more concerned about what each other are doing, than the collective good. It would be a terrible shame if through caution we missed a golden opportunity. The Premiership presents an outstanding spectacle at an outstanding price. We would be absolutely stupid to sit and do nothing while a league across the Channel is growing and growing.”

I'd love to know how they'd enforce that, if a club didn't/couldn't spend to the salary cap minimum. I love that sentence about some clubs are looking at us and saying we're cheating but they need to realize it's for their own good! I think his fear of the French is well founded though. After the RWC15 I'd say a lot of fringe/unsure England players will hop the channel, Toby Flood being a good example.

Only Saracens, Harlequins, Wasps and Sale (once) have tried the big-stadium idea. “Let Newcastle play at St James’s Park, or Sale at Old Trafford, or Gloucester at the Millennium Stadium,” said Griffiths. “These matches put the league on the grand stage. And clubs need to put proper teams and marquee players into the Premiership’s Sevens competitions. Why can’t we play Premiership Sevens tournaments around the world? I’ve been to China and Brazil, and sevens is all they talk about.”

Saracens, backed by South African investors, have partner clubs in Moscow, Kuala Lumpur, Abu Dhabi, Nairobi, Sao Paulo and Tonga – with Seattle, Timisoara in Romania, and a club in Georgia to follow – who wear their kit and logo and share their community and coaching programmes. “We estimate we could have 40 Saracens players participating at the Rio Olympics under various national colours,” said Griffiths. “And we have an advertising campaign running worldwide on CNBC.”

I'm betting now the last part is how they're getting around the salary cap. Chris Ashton is a mentor to some poor sap in Georgia.......


You do know that that article is complete nonsense. Especially the part about declining attendances. Saracens neither control or represent Premier Rugby. They are just one of 12 clubs and only have one vote.

The problem Saracens have is they have a completely unsustainable business model and lose nearly as much money as they turnover every year. They want to behave like Toulon or a Racing and are frustrated the other clubs stop them from doing so.

In terms of attendances they have held steady or increased at Leicester, Northampton, Bath, Harlequins, Exeter and Gloucester. The clubs that have suffered drops in crowds have suffered from specific problems. Sale moved from a very accessible stadium to a very inaccessible one. Wasps have suffered all sorts of off field problems and Newcastle and Worcester have both been relegated. The league as a whole is doing fine attendance wise.

Saracens are just trying to stir up trouble so they can change the rules but the rules aren't going to be changed. 11 v 1.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby TerenureJim » April 5th, 2014, 11:49 am

Attendances doing fine BW? Now who's sticking your head in the sand. You PRL seem to think you have an internationally viable product on a par with football. In reality the PRL are a very small fish in a big game over football rights going on between BT and Sky, and you are quite likely to get burned at some point down the road and need rescuing by the unions, arguably this already happened as the unions had to step in and save you from your unilateral selling of rights to a competition that didn't exist against sides the PRL don't control and in countries that are a different jurisdiction. Pillock.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby rooster » April 5th, 2014, 11:54 am

WRU should have let the regions go bust then bought them out, this half way house between IRFU and the PRL is no good for anyone concerned especially when they have no trust in each other at all.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Donny B. » April 18th, 2015, 9:49 pm

Even after all their conniving and bullshit, the English clubs still don't win!

Ain't meritocracy a motherfucker!!! :lol:
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Logorrhea » April 18th, 2015, 10:12 pm

its what the people want
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby offshorerules » April 19th, 2015, 8:27 am

Watched the match yesterday with an ardent, if misguided, munster fan. It was nice to be in total agreement about our delight with the result.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Oldschool » April 19th, 2015, 12:45 pm

offshorerules wrote:Watched the match yesterday with an ardent, if misguided, munster fan. It was nice to be in total agreement about our delight with the result.

Except for this.
Should we win today, who would you prefer to meet in the final?
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby simonokeeffe » April 19th, 2015, 10:15 pm

Theres an illuminating interview with Nigel Wray in The Rugby Paper, he basically says they skirt the salary cap by letting the players keep all their own image rights and the club facilitates individual sponsorship/coprporate work/endorsements
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby rooster » April 20th, 2015, 8:46 am

They also have players who have their own companies and those companies get paid for consultancy work etc.
The way Sarries are funded is a crazy mess of companies and at the end of the day they could walk away from the debt at any time with no financial loss which is a very dubious existence, they don't even have assets as the stadium is in a different company from the other debts.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby mikerob » April 20th, 2015, 9:19 am

The arrangement when a player sets up a company for off-the-field activities has been around for a long time. The player's company gets paid for things like image rights and promotional activities and there is a variety of ways this company can be made "tax efficient".

The revenue are wise to this being exploited however, and there have been cases in the past when they have investigated and discovered huge payments for a 30 minute promotional appearance, or payments for an appearance when the player hasn't even turned up.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby mikerob » April 20th, 2015, 9:24 am

rooster wrote:The way Sarries are funded is a crazy mess of companies and at the end of the day they could walk away from the debt at any time with no financial loss which is a very dubious existence, they don't even have assets as the stadium is in a different company from the other debts.


There would be an interesting "forensic accountancy" exercise there for someone who had the time and the knowledge.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Sarries thing is just a big tax dodge with the Saffa owners routing money to a loss-making holding company so they don't have to pay tax on it, and they get a club as their plaything rather than their money going to the taxman.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Vamos los azules » April 20th, 2015, 12:52 pm

mikerob wrote:The arrangement when a player sets up a company for off-the-field activities has been around for a long time. The player's company gets paid for things like image rights and promotional activities and there is a variety of ways this company can be made "tax efficient".

Most of the top Irish players have one don't they? Articles pop up in the papers about them and the level of profits they have made from time to time. I seem to recall BOD Limited (can't remember its actual name!) was fairly raking it in last time they gave the details.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby mikerob » April 20th, 2015, 1:21 pm

Vamos los azules wrote:
mikerob wrote:The arrangement when a player sets up a company for off-the-field activities has been around for a long time. The player's company gets paid for things like image rights and promotional activities and there is a variety of ways this company can be made "tax efficient".

Most of the top Irish players have one don't they? Articles pop up in the papers about them and the level of profits they have made from time to time. I seem to recall BOD Limited (can't remember its actual name!) was fairly raking it in last time they gave the details.

I don't think it is unusual for the top players who can get money from activities other than playing.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby simonokeeffe » April 21st, 2015, 12:12 am

for all we know Saracens could be being used as a money laundering front for South African mining companies to overthrow the Chinese backed Zambian government and monopolise the world copper market
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

Postby Donny B. » April 21st, 2015, 10:55 am

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/a ... nham-final

Serves the clowns who took over the tournament right!
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