Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[Beckenham Wasp]

"The new bastardisation of a tournament that only true sociopaths like Beckenham Wasp and Edward Griffiths could support and still sleep at night".

That would suggest that you think supporting the new "bastardised tournament" would be far too immoral for you. Of course that is only if you aren't happy with being an insomniac.

If you had any real objections to the new competitions you would keep your money firmly in you pocket rather than help bankroll the evil schemes of the English and French clubs.

As soon as the new competitions get going all your faux moral outrage will be forgotten within a couple of months.

Once again, you only read what you want to read. I'll always support Leinster no matter what they play in, but that doesn't mean I have to like how a great tournament has been destroyed to placate the paranoia and excuse-making of born-to-rule, might-is-right lowlifes like Griffiths, Wray and Bruce Craig.

And we'll see if new tournament doesn't crash and burn within a couple of seasons as viewers are turned off by endlessly repetitive Anglo-French matches as nearly all variety is wiped out and the easier qualification removes a lot of the tension that made the tournament so thrilling at the pool stages.

It's a sad day for people who really love the game and want to see it grow, but hey once the English and French moneymen are happy that's all that counts right?

"Born to rule"? They aren't absentee landlords they are self made business men!

How many Scottish, Welsh and Italian teams have made the knockout stages of the European Cup in the last 4 years? 2 out of 32! That is an appalling record. In 3 of those 4 years there wasn't a single Scottish, Welsh or Italian team in last 8. The lack of variety in the competition is already there.

Also the new 5 groups of 4 structure will keep more teams in contention for the knockout stages for longer and the removal of the weaker Pro12 teams make the pools much more even.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Shane Horgan's views on the IRFU needing to be a bit more selfish is getting a bit of an airing.

It's too late to now but I wonder if Leinster, Munster and Ulster (as opposed to the IRFU) had cosied up to the PRL as a tactical manoeuvre, might the Welsh Club boyos have been forced to back the Pro12 league and thereby force an earlier resolution to the HEC talks.
Right now the Italians and the French are showing that getting uppity now and down is exactly what is needed.

Were I the IRFU I would be giving Connacht every possible backing to ensure they are in a position to claim ideally 6th and if not 7th place next season.
The Welsh clubs and to a lesser extent the WRU showed themselves to be unreliable and disloyal. They have merely succeeded in weakening the league that they have no choice but to stay in, support and build up. The Welsh run the risk that Italy and perhaps even Scotland (The Italians in particular but Aberdeen Asset Managers have waved a flag of support for the Scots) might get their acts together and they then become marginalised.

You are right. The IRFU could have got a better deal for themselves if they had negotiated and compromised with the a English and French clubs. The IRFU made a political miscalculation and chose unreliable and weak allies. Neither the French Federation or the Welsh Union had control of their clubs and Scots and Italians are skint.

It was always a shaky alliance that had to confront the economic power of the English and French clubs and the RFU.

[Oldschool]

The next target for the PRL is where the real money is at. The 6Ns. So maybe the IRFU were right to target that as their no. 1 priority.
On that basis, the IRFUs strategy should be something along the lines of this.
Try to establish/re-establish the 6Ns "A" championship with the following criteria.

1. England - Only players from the Championship or lower leagues qualify.
2. France - Only players from their second division or lower leagues qualify,
3. Ireland - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
4. Italy - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
5. Scotland - Only players from their club leagues.
6. Wales - Only players from their club leagues qualify.

While cost is a factor, if the unions did this then should the professional clubs try to muscle in on the 6Ns the unions would already have a backup plan in place.
The criteria is obviously open to amendment or emendment as appropriate. You could for example include non capped exiles.

The PRL have holed the Pro12 below the water line and it's now only matter of time and money before it sinks unless the other unions get their houses in order.
The WRU in particular need to realise that their future lies with the PRO12. If they don't they will be the main losers.
The HEC doesn't have a future without Ireland but Ireland does have future without the the HEC, if they plan appropriately.
The French don't need it but the PRL will be screwed too if it goes.

If the PRO12 goes under the 6Ns will cease to be a meaningful competition and the financial power it gives the unions will be gone.
Does anybody seriously doubt that the professional clubs (a la soccer) have this on their agenda.

[Oldschool]

Shane Horgan's views on the IRFU needing to be a bit more selfish is getting a bit of an airing.

It's too late to now but I wonder if Leinster, Munster and Ulster (as opposed to the IRFU) had cosied up to the PRL as a tactical manoeuvre, might the Welsh Club boyos have been forced to back the Pro12 league and thereby force an earlier resolution to the HEC talks.
Right now the Italians and the French are showing that getting uppity now and down is exactly what is needed.

Were I the IRFU I would be giving Connacht every possible backing to ensure they are in a position to claim ideally 6th and if not 7th place next season.
The Welsh clubs and to a lesser extent the WRU showed themselves to be unreliable and disloyal. They have merely succeeded in weakening the league that they have no choice but to stay in, support and build up. The Welsh run the risk that Italy and perhaps even Scotland (The Italians in particular but Aberdeen Asset Managers have waved a flag of support for the Scots) might get their acts together and they then become marginalised.

You are right. The IRFU could have got a better deal for themselves if they had negotiated and compromised with the a English and French clubs. The IRFU made a political miscalculation and chose unreliable and weak allies. Neither the French Federation or the Welsh Union had control of their clubs and Scots and Italians are skint.

It was always a shaky alliance that had to confront the economic power of the English and French clubs and the RFU.

It was always a shaky alliance with Wales involved. So that is another issue for the IRFU, SRU and Italian unions to deal with.

[Beckenham Wasp]

The next target for the PRL is where the real money is at. The 6Ns. So maybe the IRFU were right to target that as their no. 1 priority.
On that basis, the IRFUs strategy should be something along the lines of this.
Try to establish/re-establish the 6Ns "A" championship with the following criteria.

1. England - Only players from the Championship or lower leagues qualify.
2. France - Only players from their second division or lower leagues qualify,
3. Ireland - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
4. Italy - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
5. Scotland - Only players from their club leagues.
6. Wales - Only players from their club leagues qualify.

While cost is a factor, if the unions did this then should the professional clubs try to muscle in on the 6Ns the unions would already have a backup plan in place.
The criteria is obviously open to amendment or emendment as appropriate. You could for example include non capped exiles.

The PRL have holed the Pro12 below the water line and it's now only matter of time and money before it sinks unless the other unions get their houses in order.
The WRU in particular need to realise that their future lies with the PRO12. If they don't they will be the main losers.
The HEC doesn't have a future without Ireland but Ireland does have future without the the HEC, if they plan appropriately.
The French don't need it but the PRL will be screwed too if it goes.

If the PRO12 goes under the 6Ns will cease to be a meaningful competition and the financial power it gives the unions will be gone.

Does anybody seriously doubt that the professional clubs (a la soccer) have this on their agenda.

Not sure why you think Premier Rugby want to go after the international game. That would mean restarting a civil war with the RFU and a civil war that they would be likely to lose. Premier Rugby is dependent on the RFU for much of its funding and also realises that the England national team is the best shop window professional rugby in England has.

Over the next few years Premier Rugby's best marketing tool would be England doing well or even winning the 2015 World Cup. England winning the 2003 World Cup resulted in a huge surge of interest in rugby and in Premiership crowds. If the England team turn into national heroes and celebrities people will want to watch them week in week out.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Shane Horgan's views on the IRFU needing to be a bit more selfish is getting a bit of an airing.

It's too late to now but I wonder if Leinster, Munster and Ulster (as opposed to the IRFU) had cosied up to the PRL as a tactical manoeuvre, might the Welsh Club boyos have been forced to back the Pro12 league and thereby force an earlier resolution to the HEC talks.
Right now the Italians and the French are showing that getting uppity now and down is exactly what is needed.

Were I the IRFU I would be giving Connacht every possible backing to ensure they are in a position to claim ideally 6th and if not 7th place next season.
The Welsh clubs and to a lesser extent the WRU showed themselves to be unreliable and disloyal. They have merely succeeded in weakening the league that they have no choice but to stay in, support and build up. The Welsh run the risk that Italy and perhaps even Scotland (The Italians in particular but Aberdeen Asset Managers have waved a flag of support for the Scots) might get their acts together and they then become marginalised.

You are right. The IRFU could have got a better deal for themselves if they had negotiated and compromised with the a English and French clubs. The IRFU made a political miscalculation and chose unreliable and weak allies. Neither the French Federation or the Welsh Union had control of their clubs and Scots and Italians are skint.

It was always a shaky alliance that had to confront the economic power of the English and French clubs and the RFU.

It was always a shaky alliance with Wales involved. So that is another issue for the IRFU, SRU and Italian unions to deal with.

It wasn't just the Welsh. The Scots and Italians were always likely to be tempted to offers of money. The Scots and the Italians might be skint but at least their Unions were thinking clearly and acting pragmatically.

The WRU behaviour on the other hand has become increasingly odd. It wants full control of Welsh rugby without the hassle of running the professional sides or paying for them. Its seems Roger Lewis the WRU board seem more interested in asserting their authority within a Welsh rugby rather than acting in the interests of the sport there. The Union has been hoarding cash at the expense of the professional teams and the community clubs.

Some of the stuff David Moffett has come out with has been damming. I wouldn't be surprised if a revolt of the junior clubs doesn't result in the current WRU leadership being swept away. Moffett might not be everyone's cup of tea but he has his head screwed on commercially and has a track record to back it up.

[Blue not red blood]

So Whos on First and Whats on Second ?

Yes thats right

[Oldschool]

The next target for the PRL is where the real money is at. The 6Ns. So maybe the IRFU were right to target that as their no. 1 priority.
On that basis, the IRFUs strategy should be something along the lines of this.
Try to establish/re-establish the 6Ns "A" championship with the following criteria.

1. England - Only players from the Championship or lower leagues qualify.
2. France - Only players from their second division or lower leagues qualify,
3. Ireland - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
4. Italy - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
5. Scotland - Only players from their club leagues.
6. Wales - Only players from their club leagues qualify.

While cost is a factor, if the unions did this then should the professional clubs try to muscle in on the 6Ns the unions would already have a backup plan in place.
The criteria is obviously open to amendment or emendment as appropriate. You could for example include non capped exiles.

The PRL have holed the Pro12 below the water line and it's now only matter of time and money before it sinks unless the other unions get their houses in order.
The WRU in particular need to realise that their future lies with the PRO12. If they don't they will be the main losers.
The HEC doesn't have a future without Ireland but Ireland does have future without the the HEC, if they plan appropriately.
The French don't need it but the PRL will be screwed too if it goes.

If the PRO12 goes under the 6Ns will cease to be a meaningful competition and the financial power it gives the unions will be gone.

Does anybody seriously doubt that the professional clubs (a la soccer) have this on their agenda.

Not sure why you think Premier Rugby want to go after the international game. That would mean restarting a civil war with the RFU and a civil war that they would be likely to lose. Premier Rugby is dependent on the RFU for much of its funding and also realises that the England national team is the best shop window professional rugby in England has.

Over the next few years Premier Rugby's best marketing tool would be England doing well or even winning the 2015 World Cup. England winning the 2003 World Cup resulted in a huge surge of interest in rugby and in Premiership crowds. If the England team turn into national heroes and celebrities people will want to watch them week in week out.

You are familiar with the phrase "Divide and Conquer" I presume.
It worked quite well for Henry VIII.
The modern day business man equivalent would have some of his ilk in their midst.
They would have little or no respect for the blazers.
They have already managed in part to divide the RFU from the other unions.
Expect more of the same.

Their grand strategy has to be..
Sure we supply the players we don't need the RFU.
To that tho they need the other nations on board.
For argument sake they already have France and Wales.
If they get Ireland on board it's game on.
There biggest problem tho is that they need a competitive 4th nation.
3Nations wouldn't have the same appeal particularly as Wales would soon drop off the radar because of the lack of fan support at club level.

[dropkick]

Shane Horgan's views on the IRFU needing to be a bit more selfish is getting a bit of an airing.

It's too late to now but I wonder if Leinster, Munster and Ulster (as opposed to the IRFU) had cosied up to the PRL as a tactical manoeuvre, might the Welsh Club boyos have been forced to back the Pro12 league and thereby force an earlier resolution to the HEC talks.
Right now the Italians and the French are showing that getting uppity now and down is exactly what is needed.

Were I the IRFU I would be giving Connacht every possible backing to ensure they are in a position to claim ideally 6th and if not 7th place next season.
The Welsh clubs and to a lesser extent the WRU showed themselves to be unreliable and disloyal. They have merely succeeded in weakening the league that they have no choice but to stay in, support and build up. The Welsh run the risk that Italy and perhaps even Scotland (The Italians in particular but Aberdeen Asset Managers have waved a flag of support for the Scots) might get their acts together and they then become marginalised.

+1


Taking the quick buck could come back to haunt these teams. Sure, the regions will get a nice reward and a pat on the back and told their favour won't be forgotten, but they have knifed the WRU and the IRFU in the back.
Talk now that the Scots were also bought off by BT.


The IRFU should look after number 1 from now on if all that is true. Help the WRU out if they need help and maybe the Italians.


If the English are demanding more because of TV viewership (so they say anyway) then why should the regions get equal funding as Irish teams!?! Thats what I'd like to know. They've been responsible for the Pro 12 teams getting a far worse deal this time around.

[Beckenham Wasp]

The next target for the PRL is where the real money is at. The 6Ns. So maybe the IRFU were right to target that as their no. 1 priority.
On that basis, the IRFUs strategy should be something along the lines of this.
Try to establish/re-establish the 6Ns "A" championship with the following criteria.

1. England - Only players from the Championship or lower leagues qualify.
2. France - Only players from their second division or lower leagues qualify,
3. Ireland - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
4. Italy - Only players from their club leagues qualify.
5. Scotland - Only players from their club leagues.
6. Wales - Only players from their club leagues qualify.

While cost is a factor, if the unions did this then should the professional clubs try to muscle in on the 6Ns the unions would already have a backup plan in place.
The criteria is obviously open to amendment or emendment as appropriate. You could for example include non capped exiles.

The PRL have holed the Pro12 below the water line and it's now only matter of time and money before it sinks unless the other unions get their houses in order.
The WRU in particular need to realise that their future lies with the PRO12. If they don't they will be the main losers.
The HEC doesn't have a future without Ireland but Ireland does have future without the the HEC, if they plan appropriately.
The French don't need it but the PRL will be screwed too if it goes.

If the PRO12 goes under the 6Ns will cease to be a meaningful competition and the financial power it gives the unions will be gone.

Does anybody seriously doubt that the professional clubs (a la soccer) have this on their agenda.

Not sure why you think Premier Rugby want to go after the international game. That would mean restarting a civil war with the RFU and a civil war that they would be likely to lose. Premier Rugby is dependent on the RFU for much of its funding and also realises that the England national team is the best shop window professional rugby in England has.

Over the next few years Premier Rugby's best marketing tool would be England doing well or even winning the 2015 World Cup. England winning the 2003 World Cup resulted in a huge surge of interest in rugby and in Premiership crowds. If the England team turn into national heroes and celebrities people will want to watch them week in week out.

You are familiar with the phrase "Divide and Conquer" I presume.
It worked quite well for Henry VIII.
The modern day business man equivalent would have some of his ilk in their midst.
They would have little or no respect for the blazers.
They have already managed in part to divide the RFU from the other unions.
Expect more of the same.

Their grand strategy has to be..
Sure we supply the players we don't need the RFU.
To that tho they need the other nations on board.
For argument sake they already have France and Wales.
If they get Ireland on board it's game on.
There biggest problem tho is that they need a competitive 4th nation.
3Nations wouldn't have the same appeal particularly as Wales would soon drop off the radar because of the lack of fan support at club level.

The Premiership Rugby needs the RFU. It needs a successful England national team, it needs the RFU's governance and it needs the RFU's funding. Premier Rugby aren't going to jeopardise that. The RFU supported Premier Rugby because it was in its interests for Premier Rugby to get as good a commercial deal as possible. RFU wants to keep the England internationals in England and to do that it needs the co-operation of well resourced clubs.

Also Rugby Union is an infant spectator sport in England and Rugby's profile amongst the general public is dominated by the success or failure of the national side. The National team is English Rugby's shop window and to get people interested in club rugby Premier Rugby needs the England team to be successful. England v Wales on the BBC is watched by 10 million people. The Premiership final by 500,000.

This doomsday scenario about international rugby being usurped by private clubs is nonsense. The main threat to international rugby is the incompetence of Unions in running the sports in their own countries. Why do you think Irish rugby is thriving whilst the Welsh and the Scots are in a mess? That has nothing to do with economic power of the French and English clubs and everything to do with the competence or otherwise of the administrators and and Unions in charge. There is no reason why Wales shouldn't have thriving domestic professional scene. The fact they don't is their own fault. The same goes for Scotland too.

National Unions need to take responsibility for the success of rugby in their own jurisdictions. They can't just complacently expect the other countries to look out for their interests for them and complain about how they can't afford to pay their players properly.

[Blue not red blood]

Ok look, Whos on first and What is on second.
How hard is that to understand

[Oldschool]

BW - You've just protested too much methinks.
Especially when I see a phrase like incompetence of the unions. Suggesting the clubs could do much better.
The clubs owners are businessmen, they're in it for the money and as you point out it's the unions that have the money and they're thinking wouldn't it be nice if.
They probably thought they were set up when England won the RWC and that they'd have gotten their hands on it by now except that the Irish teams spoiled the party.
The Irish always were a difficult lot to deal with. Rebellious, unpredictable and ultimately ungovernable. History repeating itself. And now the Scots are at it too.

[ronk]

Premier Rugby need the RFU alive so they can suck it dry.

Our biggest strength is our ability to stand together with the other countries and the knowledge that we're worth more to English (and French) rugby than they are to us (a corollary of them having a bigger market).

The extra 6N game for each Union is worth far more than what Italy get, there are still many people who understand that. If we want to fight off Premier Rugby (and there'll be a next time), our strongest hand is to turn the Welsh westwards decisively while we have the chance and they're hurting.

Going it alone is the 2nd worst thing we could do (begging PRL to let us get into bed with them is the worst).

[simonokeeffe]

Be interesting how boisterous Welsh (and Scots) will be about syphoning off RWC matches when we bid for that

[Oldschool]

Premier Rugby need the RFU alive so they can suck it dry.

Our biggest strength is our ability to stand together with the other countries and the knowledge that we're worth more to English (and French) rugby than they are to us (a corollary of them having a bigger market).

The extra 6N game for each Union is worth far more than what Italy get, there are still many people who understand that. If we want to fight off Premier Rugby (and there'll be a next time), our strongest hand is to turn the Welsh westwards decisively while we have the chance and they're hurting.

Going it alone is the 2nd worst thing we could do (begging PRL to let us get into bed with them is the worst).

Don't think anybody is suggesting going it alone as such, more a reevaluation of strategy and tactics and a serious examination of who the opposition are and the game they are opposing us with, what their strategy is likely to be and why and so on and so forth. The PRL won this round but there was the touch of Pyrrhic about it. They've laid the ground work for the next time because they've tested our defences and found a few weaknesses. As you say we need to get the Welsh to look West but the PRL already have their boot boys in there and the WRU didn't do to well against a pretty weak opponent.
So question for you and others Ronk - How do we get them to look West - What are the carrots and sticks we can use.
We need the Scots and Italians on board and perhaps exploit the Frenchies innate aversion to all things English.
An aversion I wouldn't underestimate. The French definitely won't want L'Anglais putting one over on the them.
They like us to win the odd HEC but not the English - The English don't really understand this aversion BTW but the French dislike of them is very palpable when one is abroad in France. And for balance the French aren't complete angels either but they do have the old je nes se quoi about them. The rest of us, kind of have to wait in the long grass and bide our time and be prepared to strike. Wonder would Joe have any ideas?

And a little aside the PRL and their Welsh allies might well want to pull the rug from under us if we did get to host RWC23.

[Fireworks]

What I would like to see but know will never happen is that the unions take the time of stability we now have to gradually take back the game. Let them play the long game. Prl and Welsh teams have run in to financial difficulties in the past. As it happens again the unions should step in to take a controlling share. They can be silent partners for the day to day running of the club but control the macro situation. Working with the more reasonable and stable clubs they could retake the game from the destructive element that have appeared.

I am totally ok with the current owners looking out for their own business interests but I do not feel those interests are necessarily good for the whole game. As I said I think the unions should gradually take back the game.

PS I would appreciate if it would not reply or comment on my posts as I would like a reasoned discussion.

[Fireworks]

Be interesting how boisterous Welsh (and Scots) will be about syphoning off RWC matches when we bid for that

Not really interested in us bidding for the RWC if it involves matches outside the country. We can and should do it all here. Anything else dilutes the economic benefit and the takes from the atmosphere.

[dropkick]

Premier Rugby need the RFU alive so they can suck it dry.

Our biggest strength is our ability to stand together with the other countries and the knowledge that we're worth more to English (and French) rugby than they are to us (a corollary of them having a bigger market).

The extra 6N game for each Union is worth far more than what Italy get, there are still many people who understand that. If we want to fight off Premier Rugby (and there'll be a next time), our strongest hand is to turn the Welsh westwards decisively while we have the chance and they're hurting.

Going it alone is the 2nd worst thing we could do (begging PRL to let us get into bed with them is the worst).

Don't think anybody is suggesting going it alone as such, more a reevaluation of strategy and tactics and a serious examination of who the opposition are and the game they are opposing us with, what their strategy is likely to be and why and so on and so forth. The PRL won this round but there was the touch of Pyrrhic about it. They've laid the ground work for the next time because they've tested our defences and found a few weaknesses. As you say we need to get the Welsh to look West but the PRL already have their boot boys in there and the WRU didn't do to well against a pretty weak opponent.
So question for you and others Ronk - How do we get them to look West - What are the carrots and sticks we can use.
We need the Scots and Italians on board and perhaps exploit the Frenchies innate aversion to all things English.
An aversion I wouldn't underestimate. The French definitely won't want L'Anglais putting one over on the them.
They like us to win the odd HEC but not the English - The English don't really understand this aversion BTW but the French dislike of them is very palpable when one is abroad in France. And for balance the French aren't complete angels either but they do have the old je nes se quoi about them. The rest of us, kind of have to wait in the long grass and bide our time and be prepared to strike. Wonder would Joe have any ideas?

And a little aside the PRL and their Welsh allies might well want to pull the rug from under us if we did get to host RWC23.

A few things can be done.
1 Start playing hardball with the Scots, Welsh regions and Italians. Offer them a bigger share of the spoils only if the cooperate.
2 Start strengthening links between other European nations and the north Americans.
3 Try get a Pro 12 with a second division started up. It would be great if it could get off the ground.
4 Make long term plans with Sky. BT are firmly in the English premiership corner.
5 Keep the pressure on the IRB to do something about the clubs gaining control. The Aussies and Kiwis will start feeling the heat more and more too so there should be no shortage of allies. The French union are the key.

[artaneboy]

Be interesting how boisterous Welsh (and Scots) will be about syphoning off RWC matches when we bid for that

Not really interested in us bidding for the RWC if it involves matches outside the country. We can and should do it all here. Anything else dilutes the economic benefit and the takes from the atmosphere.

Agreed- all or nothing!

[Beckenham Wasp]

BW - You've just protested too much methinks.
Especially when I see a phrase like incompetence of the unions. Suggesting the clubs could do much better.
The clubs owners are businessmen, they're in it for the money and as you point out it's the unions that have the money and they're thinking wouldn't it be nice if.
They probably thought they were set up when England won the RWC and that they'd have gotten their hands on it by now except that the Irish teams spoiled the party.
The Irish always were a difficult lot to deal with. Rebellious, unpredictable and ultimately ungovernable. History repeating itself. And now the Scots are at it too.

So would you describe the way in which the WRU and the SRU run Welsh and and Scottish Rugby? Incompetent pretty much sums it up. The WRU can't run its domestic affairs properly and the Scottish national team is a shadow of what is was before 1995.

The clubs owners in England are motivated by many things but profit isn't one of them. I doubt a single owner in the Premiership has made an economic return on the money they have spent on rugby. The likes of the Barwells at Northampton, the Walkinshaws at Gloucester and Tony Rowe at Exeter might just about cover their costs but their involvement has more to do with philanthropy and civic pride rather than profit.

They might want the best commercial deals for their clubs but they aren't motivated by personal greed.