"Doping" in rugby?

[fourthirtythree]

Thanks ronk. That's scary, not only because of the effects that were caused but also because it was seemingly so obvious.

To be fair adult orthodonty has risen in popularity over the past couple of decades also but the hGH mandible elongation which causes teeth to loosen is also visible in other ways. Like Michael Johnson's chin for example. And more importantly the group use of braces - by a large proportion of US athletes for example - should definitely have set alarm bells going except for the fact that a) the authorities were in on it (see the doctors) and b) we are the good guys beating the bad guys. The Chinese do it en masse, but that would never happen in the West. Except that it does. All the time.

[berniemac67]

No, I don't think so at all. There's a big commitment already to training, but accurate use of drugs is a major decision with huge implications and massive effects on your life. If you're already registered with WADA you're used to the prospect of testing at any time, any place. If you're doping, this means that you have to alter your life. You need a detailed understanding of the whole WADA system, what drugs to take, when to take them and then you play a game of cat and mouse with the testers. Michelle Smith wouldn't answer the door, couldn't just go down to the supermarket. The testers hid away for hours and surprised her when she left the bins out. That required surveillance and dedication above and beyond the call of duty (and pay) of the testers. Some of the techniques like blood doping carry huge risks unless the proper precautions are used. The precautions need to be hidden.

It's not something you just do. To get away with it at the top levels, it has to take over your life. Where athletes do it individually, they can spend months researching before starting.

This is the narrative of sin and redemption that we tend to hear from felon athletes, that it was an individual fall from grace and a sin they carried with them through their professional careers. One big mistake. For various reasons I find that unconvincing.

You don't go from zero to EPO. In cycling they get their Haemocrit measured daily, it's an environment in which if you are not on the legal limit there's something wrong. They take pills and injections all the time, as they do in most major sports. They don't do it on their own, they do it as part of a team. Go back in time to the 80s and some spotless athletes with political careers would have been siphoning off blood in the winter to use for their record attempts. Not technically illegal at the time I believe, but morally no different from taking EPO or the like. Their records will not be expunged and they feel entitled to lecture others. An Irish athlete or two would have responded to rampant and obvious doping in their sport by going for "out of season training" in Australia. Why there? In the 90s Australia was like East Germany to the USA's Soviet Union. In the 90s two team doctors in a row resigned from the US team over the fact that they had to deal with rampant and systematic doping. Not individuals but an entire culture. The example you gave of Michelle de Bruin (who didn't act on her own, her coach was her husband) will never happen to Usain Bolt. Drug testers flying in to Kingston are spotted immediately, there are no surprises.

Sportspeople are urged to cheat, to push the boundaries, to be winners, to break the laws of the game. It's just that sometimes there are unwritten laws that we as spectators see as being more important. I'm not sure they do. Drug taking is a continuum that they travel throughout their careers. What they took last year may be illegal next. They may get a medical cert for their growth hormones or their steroids, but be medically no different from the next athlete without the certs.

That closeness to the athletes and the way we have turned some of them into "good guys" in our minds is part of the reason the sports authorities, I think, will never combat drugs. They're too close. It's usually criminal investigations involving illegal use and transport of medicines that kick things right open. So obviously I believe in my heart that no Irish rugby player is taking drugs. But belief is thinking something is true without actually having any evidence.

not all cyclists have their hematocits tested daily. riding a bicycle for 4+ hours every day reduces hematocrit, and racing exacerbates this effect. a normal athlete's crit will never get near 50% (the uci cut off point for competing) unles they are blood doping or using EPO. clean athlete's will only have periodic checks as part of their overall health monitoring, and i've never heard of daily health checks except during races and never with blood drawn daily unless someon is ill (and i know quite a few pro cyclists). any cyclist or athlete having a crit measured on a daily basis is almost certainly doping.

i'm not sure i agree that an athlete won't go from zero to EPO. the key factor in us postal (lance armstong and pals) and in balco (marion jones etc.) is that what they were using/doing was technologically undetectable when they started using/doing it. for that reason it must have been an unbelievably easy decision since dodging the testers was not a real issue. over time they had to be more careful, but again that was largely to avoid being caught in the act or in possession of dope, not to avoid testing. the fact remains that lance armstong was only caught because 2 of his buddies messed up and this lead to pressure to confess - floyd landis was careless with testosterone and tyler hamilton somehow got somebody else's blood back instead of his own.

the technological gap between dopers and testers appears to have narrowed dramatically in the last 10 years or so, but still i'm not sure i'd agree that a decision to dope now would require a whole-life commitment to evasion. as a cycling fan i am very suspicious of training camps in remote locations since positive tests remain possible only for short periods after doping, and the beneficial effect can be very long-lasting ... polish cryo chambers anyone??

[Broken Wing]

Taking drugs doesn't make you the fastest man in history

Perhaps not but it certainly seems to help.

I know where I could be if I was doping because my team was testing me. I'd have been right there with Lance if I'd been on EPO. People say that doping products don't make you incredible but that's just a lie. I did testosterone patches the last year that I was a pro and my average speed went up 2 or 3 miles per hour. It's like pure nitro fuel.

[berniemac67]

Taking drugs doesn't make you the fastest man in history

Perhaps not but it certainly seems to help.

I know where I could be if I was doping because my team was testing me. I'd have been right there with Lance if I'd been on EPO. People say that doping products don't make you incredible but that's just a lie. I did testosterone patches the last year that I was a pro and my average speed went up 2 or 3 miles per hour. It's like pure nitro fuel.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ugjdpl0d4577vrx4/

5-10% boost in performance capabilities for recreational athletes. the difference between winning and losing in most elite sports is nowhere near 5-10%. drugs have a profound impact on performance in any sport ... that's one of the reasons they are banned.

[domhnallj]

BBC reporting on a major doping problem in professional Aussie sports. Aussie rules amd rugby league mentioned but there is scrutiny across the board.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21363100

[fourthirtythree]

I see they're following the "individual cheats" and "criminals" route. Which if you watched Oz athletics in the 90s is utterly naive at best. If the US track and field were the Soviet Union of doping in the 90s, Oz was East Germany.

Ever notice, say, a high profile Irish athlete after getting spanked at a major event by obviously (and subsequently the stable was found to have been involved in systematic drug administration) drugged competitors going for "out of season training in Australia" and coming back looking different?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Anecdotally I've heard about them being used recreationally by RL players in Oz. Supposedly there's one night where they have a big blow out because they know they won't be tested for ages.

I know someone who has been at one of the parties a few years ago and it sounded like something out of a film.

[West Brit]

I see they're following the "individual cheats" and "criminals" route. Which if you watched Oz athletics in the 90s is utterly naive at best. If the US track and field were the Soviet Union of doping in the 90s, Oz was East Germany.

Ever notice, say, a high profile Irish athlete after getting spanked at a major event by obviously (and subsequently the stable was found to have been involved in systematic drug administration) drugged competitors going for "out of season training in Australia" and coming back looking different?

Australia didn't exactly win anything in track and field in the 90s though did they? I know Dean Capobianco got done early in the decade but I can't think of anybody else that got done or was any good (I'm open to correction though).

Recreational drug use is rife in Aussie Rules and League though. Places like Perth are small enough that everybody knows exactly which players are on what, and the players are seen doing these things in the open as well, so it's not just rumour mongering.

[Broken Wing]

Legal constraints prevent the identification of any particular code, particular teams or particular athletes, but Minister for Justice Jason Clare emphasised that no code was immune.

The heads of the major sporting bodies were at the announcement of the report with Cricket Australia CEO James Sutherland, AFL CEO Andrew Demetriou, ARU CEO Bill Pulver and NRL CEO David Smith all voicing their shock at the outcomes of the report.

The no code being immune and the presence of Bill Pulver strognly hints at PEDs in rugby union.

There's a feature in the latest Irish Runner annual which highlights 7 young athletes to watch in the future (the likes of Brian Gregan, Sarah Lavin and Stephen Colvert) . One of them (name escapes me) spoke about going to Australia having a big impact on his training and times. Now I'm seeing that in a whole new light.

[johng]

I think you're in need of a slash there BW

[Broken Wing]

I think you're in need of a slash there BW

I'm ashamed of that mess. All sorted now though.

[Broken Wing]

I see they're following the "individual cheats" and "criminals" route. Which if you watched Oz athletics in the 90s is utterly naive at best. If the US track and field were the Soviet Union of doping in the 90s, Oz was East Germany.

Ever notice, say, a high profile Irish athlete after getting spanked at a major event by obviously (and subsequently the stable was found to have been involved in systematic drug administration) drugged competitors going for "out of season training in Australia" and coming back looking different?

Australia didn't exactly win anything in track and field in the 90s though did they? I know Dean Capobianco got done early in the decade but I can't think of anybody else that got done or was any good (I'm open to correction though).

Australians Mark Bourne and Suzy Walsham were the fastest man and woman to race up the 1,576 steps of the Empire State Building yesterday (6/2/13) in the run up of the iconic New York landmark.

Not in the 90's I know but the ACC report means now everything is suspect.

[West Brit]

I see they're following the "individual cheats" and "criminals" route. Which if you watched Oz athletics in the 90s is utterly naive at best. If the US track and field were the Soviet Union of doping in the 90s, Oz was East Germany.

Ever notice, say, a high profile Irish athlete after getting spanked at a major event by obviously (and subsequently the stable was found to have been involved in systematic drug administration) drugged competitors going for "out of season training in Australia" and coming back looking different?

Australia didn't exactly win anything in track and field in the 90s though did they? I know Dean Capobianco got done early in the decade but I can't think of anybody else that got done or was any good (I'm open to correction though).

Australians Mark Bourne and Suzy Walsham were the fastest man and woman to race up the 1,576 steps of the Empire State Building yesterday (6/2/13) in the run up of the iconic New York landmark.

Not in the 90's I know but the ACC report means now everything is suspect.

Even Bob Hawke's world record for the fastest ever yard glass is now suspect in my eyes!

[Donny B.]

Was listening to Off the Ball about this issue last night. One journalist took the story to the NRL and AFL years ago and instead of pursuing it, they buried her in injunctions.

Doesn't seem to be any mention of Union in it so far, but if it was so rife in league, you'd have to think some of the Union boys were at it too?

[RavenhillRaider]

Ben Franks speaking about supplements.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/supe ... f-products

I am actually surprised that there isnt a quality label used for supplements yet.
I know WADA cant be seen to endorse products.
But surely the food regulator should test these products, for general health purposes as well as banned substances?

[Donny B.]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2588 ... 84,00.html

Quick on the testing aren't they?

[Broken Wing]

Since the topic of doping has come up again I think this is worth a read:

http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

Lance lied about absolutely everything; we turned him from a do-good hero into a defensive pariah. We hate people who lie to our faces.
But when you keep your head down and keep cheating? That’s a little tougher. We’re culpable in this respect: We have a tendency to look the other way as long as those great games and great moments keep coming.

[RavenhillRaider]

Back in the spotlight again.


Rugby union recorded a higher percentage of positive test results than either cycling or athletics in 2013.

The findings, which come from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), are a result of all of its laboratory findings across Olympic sports in 2013.

The figures show rugby's figure of 1.3% positive (the presence of a prohibited substance or its metabolite in the sample) is higher than the two sports more readily identified with drug abuse.

While the IRB welcomed the results, a spokesman said they did not mean rugby was any less clean than other sports. "What it shows is that an intelligent anti-doping program in rugby is working and catching those using illegal substances We want to catch people using banned substances. A lot of our testing is targeted and we focus a lot on the Under-20s.

"Quite often positive tests would come from supplements. We know they are particularly susceptible there, so education is also a big part of our program. These figures show they will be tested and they will be caught if they use illegal substances."

In 2014 a total of 6126 samples were taken from rugby union players (this compares with 22,252 in cycling and 11,585 in athletics). Only weightlifting (3.4% from 8553 tests) and wrestling (2.3% from 4331 tests) come out worse than rugby.

Earlier in the year the IRB said it had taken 1831 samples which resulted in three positive results. The spokesman said that its system was "very robust".


Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/st ... cEjqKR5.99

[paddyor]

No Commonwealth games for Warburton. Wonder where this will end?

[offshorerules]

No Commonwealth games for Warburton. Wonder where this will end?

? or wtf?