Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 8th, 2019, 8:59 am

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:Jaw dropping piece on the bbc...mainly from danny care, the english scrum half. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07t6mvn
He makes a compelling argument to stick them in the championship for the same amount of time they breached the salary cap.
Feel for exeter, who finished top in the league twice but lost in the play off finals to Saracans.


There certainly is a lot more animus among senior players / retired players than presented by media commentators. Its very understandable because opposition players have looked at Sarries for years knowing they were 'gaming the system' but nobody seemed to want to do anything about it. Its wasn't targeted at the players that Sarries produced through their Academy but much more about bringing in top names whenever they needed - e.g. Williams, Maitland, Koch.

Exeter in particular have felt the impact as they have got very close to Sarries in every play-off game over the past 4/5 years.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » November 8th, 2019, 11:43 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:
MylesNaGapoleen wrote:Jaw dropping piece on the bbc...mainly from danny care, the english scrum half. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07t6mvn
He makes a compelling argument to stick them in the championship for the same amount of time they breached the salary cap.
Feel for exeter, who finished top in the league twice but lost in the play off finals to Saracans.


There certainly is a lot more animus among senior players / retired players than presented by media commentators. Its very understandable because opposition players have looked at Sarries for years knowing they were 'gaming the system' but nobody seemed to want to do anything about it. Its wasn't targeted at the players that Sarries produced through their Academy but much more about bringing in top names whenever they needed - e.g. Williams, Maitland, Koch.

Exeter in particular have felt the impact as they have got very close to Sarries in every play-off game over the past 4/5 years.


Agree about Exeter.

I pass through england a bit and goto a few away heineken cup games with leinster..and the CC & HC finals every year regardless of finalists...the general gist I get from fans from other english clubs is that saracens are detested and deeply. Their financial doping was the worst kept secret in the english game and it took so long for the RFU to react even they don't come out of this well. Ditto for the QUINNS players past and present demanding that they are relegated....."bloodgate" appears to have been forgotten over there.

Lets see what happens next. Saracens had 20 players at the world cup. And are arguably the backbone of the English national team. Could get even more messy.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby cormac » November 8th, 2019, 1:04 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:
MylesNaGapoleen wrote:Jaw dropping piece on the bbc...mainly from danny care, the english scrum half. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07t6mvn
He makes a compelling argument to stick them in the championship for the same amount of time they breached the salary cap.
Feel for exeter, who finished top in the league twice but lost in the play off finals to Saracans.


There certainly is a lot more animus among senior players / retired players than presented by media commentators. Its very understandable because opposition players have looked at Sarries for years knowing they were 'gaming the system' but nobody seemed to want to do anything about it. Its wasn't targeted at the players that Sarries produced through their Academy but much more about bringing in top names whenever they needed - e.g. Williams, Maitland, Koch.

Exeter in particular have felt the impact as they have got very close to Sarries in every play-off game over the past 4/5 years.


Agree about Exeter.

I pass through england a bit and goto a few away heineken cup games with leinster..and the CC & HC finals every year regardless of finalists...the general gist I get from fans from other english clubs is that saracens are detested and deeply. Their financial doping was the worst kept secret in the english game and it took so long for the RFU to react even they don't come out of this well. Ditto for the QUINNS players past and present demanding that they are relegated....."bloodgate" appears to have been forgotten over there.

Lets see what happens next. Saracens had 20 players at the world cup. And are arguably the backbone of the English national team. Could get even more messy.


It's nothing to do with the RFU. PRL run the league.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 9th, 2019, 2:59 pm

Saracens away to Gloucester is on BT soon. One thing I forgot was just how much every other club is going to be up for the games against Sarries this season. They're despised and every single point will be crucial so every game could be interesting.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » November 9th, 2019, 6:07 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Saracens away to Gloucester is on BT soon. One thing I forgot was just how much every other club is going to be up for the games against Sarries this season. They're despised and every single point will be crucial so every game could be interesting.

fans with fez hats with -26 cards attached were funny. ditto for the fake money in caps. gloucester not so good. salarycens have racing metro next week. by then I guess the ruling will have been fogotten....
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 9th, 2019, 7:33 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Saracens away to Gloucester is on BT soon. One thing I forgot was just how much every other club is going to be up for the games against Sarries this season. They're despised and every single point will be crucial so every game could be interesting.

fans with fez hats with -26 cards attached were funny. ditto for the fake money in caps. gloucester not so good. salarycens have racing metro next week. by then I guess the ruling will have been fogotten....


I only half watched it in the end because the quality was so poor but that's :lol:

I'm not sure if I've ever seen Gloucester do anything other than choke in a big game.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 9th, 2019, 8:23 pm

Saints momentum halted. Thank you Girv.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » November 9th, 2019, 8:40 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Saracens away to Gloucester is on BT soon. One thing I forgot was just how much every other club is going to be up for the games against Sarries this season. They're despised and every single point will be crucial so every game could be interesting.

fans with fez hats with -26 cards attached were funny. ditto for the fake money in caps. gloucester not so good. salarycens have racing metro next week. by then I guess the ruling will have been fogotten....


I only half watched it in the end because the quality was so poor but that's :lol:

I'm not sure if I've ever seen Gloucester do anything other than choke in a big game.

frustrating to watch. I think everyone wanted salarycens to lose today and gloucester had some great chances....cipriani had a poor game...made a feckin mess of two certain tries for them.
ah well. heineken weekend coming up lads.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » November 10th, 2019, 9:57 am

in london this weekend and had a salarycans fan, in the local pub (salarycens is the local club in the town where I stay when visiting) claiming that leinsters budget is much higher than theirs. I had it in my mind that the IRFU budget is about €40m (about £30M) but I didn't know the club figures. This morning google was my friend.

Pro14 (Scotland) = £4.2 million*
Super Rugby salary cap = £3.2 million
Pro14 (Wales) = £5 million*
Pro 14 (Ireland) = £6.6 million
Gallagher Premiership salary cap = £7 million
French Top 14 salary cap = £10 million
*No official salary caps so figures are estimates.

Are these stats about right? I know leinster pay johnny about €500k but I think that is an exception.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby johng » November 10th, 2019, 10:07 am

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25589&start=20#p751280

Leinster £8 mill (€9) munster and ulster a million odd less and connacht a bit further back.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 10th, 2019, 12:29 pm

johng wrote:http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25589&start=20#p751280

Leinster £8 mill (€9) munster and ulster a million odd less and connacht a bit further back.


Figures are all guesstimates and impossible to calculate because of interpolation of National Contracts with Provincial budgets - part of which is funded by IRFU.

e.g. Leinster do not pay J10. The IRFU pay his National Contract and he is also remunerated as an "Ambassador" for different Brands, as approved / agreed by IRFU. It is rumoured that some % of these individual sponsorship deals go into the National Squad pool and are divied out at year end. Never seen it formally confirmed but have heard it discussed by some who should know.

Getting a complete handle on Irish figures is almost impossible - on purpose. Essentially we are the only country in NH who operate a polucy where the Union pay a proportion of the salary of every professional player, Academy, Sevens, Development, Full Provincial, Senior Provincial, National. Other than Sevens and National, the Province play an agreed proportion of every other Contract and then bonus as negotiated by player and agent.

All contracts are subject to approval by D Nucifora.

There are very logical commercial reasons for the level of secrecy - apart from players right to confidentiality. This is a highly competitive market where player movement is largely based on income rather than propective success. Hence, cards close to chest and lots of spoofing by Agents is the norm.

Its likely that Leinster net figure (ex-IRFU contribution) is below €8m annually but who knows for certain? Is there a Provincial contribution for Players Insurance or Player pensions, no longer inconsequential figures? Again, who knows? However, on top of whatever the numbers are, there is also the matter of the Irish sports resident proessionals tax break which ensures a substantial recoup of tax paid by career end for those who fulfilled the qualifying conditions. A big bonanza for those who stayed home.
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Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Twist » November 10th, 2019, 6:48 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:in london this weekend and had a salarycans fan, in the local pub (salarycens is the local club in the town where I stay when visiting) claiming that leinsters budget is much higher than theirs. I had it in my mind that the IRFU budget is about €40m (about £30M) but I didn't know the club figures. This morning google was my friend.

Pro14 (Scotland) = £4.2 million*
Super Rugby salary cap = £3.2 million
Pro14 (Wales) = £5 million*
Pro 14 (Ireland) = £6.6 million
Gallagher Premiership salary cap = £7 million
French Top 14 salary cap = £10 million
*No official salary caps so figures are estimates.

Are these stats about right? I know leinster pay johnny about €500k but I think that is an exception.


You cant compare. Saracens’ money comes from outside the game. They succesful because their owner is rich, as opposed to being rich because they’re succesful.

They dont have to worry about the RFU intervening to distribute their home-grown talent to rival clubs.

They also recieved money for their stadium and it seems theres a story to come out of that too...

Most importantly; they cheated and Leinster didnt
Last edited by Twist on November 19th, 2019, 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby nc6000 » November 18th, 2019, 1:33 pm

Statement and Q&A from Saracens confirming they are not appealing the fine and points deduction. Apparently they are now compliant with the salary cap.

https://twitter.com/Saracens/status/1196397844711792641
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby ribs » November 18th, 2019, 9:47 pm

Interesting that they were not stripped of titles or finishing spots in prior seasons, as their qualification for Europe would then have been questioned and opened another can of worms.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby The Doc » November 18th, 2019, 10:57 pm

ribs wrote:Interesting that they were not stripped of titles or finishing spots in prior seasons, as their qualification for Europe would then have been questioned and opened another can of worms.
From what I've heard there is no mechanism to strip historical titles in the comp rules

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby paddyor » November 26th, 2019, 1:35 am

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/saracens-told-to-open-books-by-premiership-rugby-zwxbtkb72?region=ie&t=ie

Premiership Rugby has taken the extraordinary step of asking Saracens to open their books for a mid-season audit to ensure the club are complying with the salary cap regulations. A verbal request to volunteer an independent audit was due to be followed up in writing this week.

If Saracens refuse, Premiership Rugby (PRL) is expected to take legal advice on whether it would have grounds to force the club to make their financial records available. The salary cap audit is usually conducted at the end of the season.

Saracens were fined £5.4 million and deducted 35 league points after being found guilty of breaching the salary cap in each of the previous three years.

Tony Rowe, the Exeter Chiefs chairman, confirmed in The Times yesterday that Saracens had also breached the regulations in the 2013-14 season.

Nigel Wray, whose co-investments with senior players were the focus of the nine-month PRL investigation, insisted last week that Saracens were now “complying strictly with the salary cap regulations in the current season”.

However, PRL is aware that many other clubs remain suspicious and has made it a priority to address those concerns by requesting a mid-season audit.

Those suspicions exist because of Saracens’ track record. Rowe had said the club were “put on trust” after the breach in 2014 was kept confidential. There are questions, too, over how Saracens could afford to recruit Elliot Daly and Jack Singleton, two England players, for this season.

The full PRL report on the case is being kept under lock and key in the organisation’s Twickenham offices but Saracens maintain that their compliance with the core £7 million cap was never part of the investigation.

The club’s explanation for being compliant with the regulations this season was that Wray’s co-investments with players counted under the salary cap only for the year in which they were made and do not carry forward. PRL confirmed that was technically true, although any financial benefits gained from those investments in this season would count under the cap.

When confirming that Saracens would not appeal against the verdict, Wray said the club would “work transparently with Premiership Rugby” over their compliance with the salary cap.He said “robust independent governance measures” would be put in place, including the appointment of a board director responsible for “overseeing a new governance regime”.


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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby TerenureJim » November 27th, 2019, 1:27 am

One wonders if this could end with Sarries expelled. Yes they have money and titles and currently players but they don't have a big fan base and there are other possible teams who could slot into the prem and/or potential opportunities to grow the game. Thinking a Yorkshire/Leeds based franchise being rebuilt as a prime example or anywhere up north really where they're under tapped.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby dropkick » November 27th, 2019, 9:05 am

You get the feeling Saracens think some creative accounting will be the simple solution.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby fourthirtythree » November 27th, 2019, 10:02 am

Why would they think otherwise? If Al Capone was around now he wouldn't be caught by his tax law as he would be rich enough to avoid paying tax legally through shell companies.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Hornet » November 27th, 2019, 1:54 pm

The Saracens Salary Cap breach saga has been going on for years. Found this article from the Evening Standard in 2004.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sarace ... 53247.html
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