Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Peg Leg » January 22nd, 2020, 6:40 pm

No thanks, they didn't break any rules of this comp and no such restrictions apply to us. PRL dropped the ball here they can do whatever they need to to restore credibility.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby nc6000 » January 22nd, 2020, 6:50 pm

I wouldn't want us getting one that way either but think it's interesting that it's already been raised with ECPR.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Peg Leg » January 22nd, 2020, 6:50 pm

Twist wrote:A refrain I keep hearing is 'the players have done nothing wrong.' That doesn't stand up to even a minute's thought.

To believe that you have to believe that Saracens players;

- Were convinced to set up their investment companies and accept money that way, or via a vineyard in South Africa or whatever other backdoor routes were used, rather than just receiving a salary like a normal person AND

- That they looked around the dressing room and saw an agglomeration of talent that no other Premiership club could come close to matching even while reaching the limits of the salary cap AND

- That for some reason their club didn't want to deal with agents

and with those factors in mind they never averted to the likelihood that the rules were being broken. That's not credible. The kindest interpretation is that they were wilfully deceiving themselves.

I'm not saying they carry the primary culpability here. Im not saying they should carry personal suspensions or anything like that. I'm just saying that 'they did nothing wrong' stretches credibility beyond breaking point. There's no way they didn't know something was wrong. If they didn't know it's because they didn't want to and avoided finding out. That's 'doing something wrong.'

Put another way; we all knew.
I don't disagree with you, but part of me thinks "so what?". They've a short career and they negotiate for themselves, yes they may have deluded themselves, but they didn't break any rules. There is no individual player salary limit and I don't doubt many of the players asked was it ok and believed those payments may not have fallen under the salcap reg.

As a matter of interest, do the clubs have to declare who are their two marquee players? If so who are they at Sarries and what do they earn?
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Peg Leg » January 22nd, 2020, 6:54 pm

@nc6000 Ah yeah, but it's been requested by rugby's Stirling Moss.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » January 22nd, 2020, 6:59 pm

Twist wrote:A refrain I keep hearing is 'the players have done nothing wrong.' That doesn't stand up to even a minute's thought.

To believe that you have to believe that Saracens players;

- Were convinced to set up their investment companies and accept money that way, or via a vineyard in South Africa or whatever other backdoor routes were used, rather than just receiving a salary like a normal person AND

- That they looked around the dressing room and saw an agglomeration of talent that no other Premiership club could come close to matching even while reaching the limits of the salary cap AND

- That for some reason their club didn't want to deal with agents

and with those factors in mind they never averted to the likelihood that the rules were being broken. That's not credible. The kindest interpretation is that they were wilfully deceiving themselves.

I'm not saying they carry the primary culpability here. Im not saying they should carry personal suspensions or anything like that. I'm just saying that 'they did nothing wrong' stretches credibility beyond breaking point. There's no way they didn't know something was wrong. If they didn't know it's because they didn't want to and avoided finding out. That's 'doing something wrong.'

Put another way; we all knew.


I agree. They did work with agents for the initial signing. When the contract was up for renewal at the end of the season the players were encouraged to ditch the agent and sign up to the Ltd company vehicles Wray setup. A licensed agent would be duty bound to report such stuff.

Read today that lyon are about to sign farrell, itoje and Billy v. I think that would mean they cannot play for England if it goes through.

Mranwhile salarysins have agreed to allow the PRL document to be released but not to a full audit or returning trophies.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Dave Cahill » January 22nd, 2020, 7:09 pm

I think that stripping their titles is one thing, reassigning them is another. There are just too many teams who can complain that they were affected over the length of the competition.

Clermont are so desperate for a trophy, they'll try anything. Munster have a better claim on 2017 than Clermont do.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » January 22nd, 2020, 7:23 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:I think that stripping their titles is one thing, reassigning them is another..

I think exeter would be happy to get the prl trophies. As for the European, well, if the ECPR dont act now, it would be beyond embarassing if salarysins went on to win it this season.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Twist » January 22nd, 2020, 7:24 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:I think that stripping their titles is one thing, reassigning them is another. There are just too many teams who can complain that they were affected over the length of the competition.

Clermont are so desperate for a trophy, they'll try anything. Munster have a better claim on 2017 than Clermont do.


Don’t assume they wouldn’t make such a claim!
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 22nd, 2020, 7:26 pm

I don't care about the previous titles but is there any chance that they don't play in the QF? I know RTB mentioned something about the French owners talking about the whole issue but I can't work out if the punishment is done and dusted now or if there's more to come. I would imagine that if the 9th placed team (can't remember who it was in the end) raised an objection then they would have universal support to throw Saracens out.

I think I'd be pushing for that if I had any involvement, it makes no sense to have them as contenders in the circumstances. There's still so much uncertainty (e.g. the point about having to spend two years in the Championship) that I think there's more to come.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Dave Cahill » January 22nd, 2020, 7:30 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:I think that stripping their titles is one thing, reassigning them is another..

I think exeter would be happy to get the prl trophies. As for the European, well, if the ECPR dont act now, it would be beyond embarassing if salarysins went on to win it this season.


So would the teams Saracens beat in the semi-finals, or the teams who might have missed out on the play-offs, perhaps due to results against Saracens. Thats the problem with reassigning their titles. Their behaviour has perverted the competitions entirely. Perhaps strip out their results and reassign the Prem titles on a straight league table basis - I don't think the European titles can be reassigned at all
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Hornet » January 22nd, 2020, 7:31 pm

Xanthippe wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
Hornet wrote:Saracens refuse to refund their season-ticket holders despite guaranteed Premiership relegation.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... on-1371953

What shocked me about this is the top priced season ticket is priced at £1130! For Allianz Park!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:


The top priced season ticket for the RDS is €1289


To be fair that €1289 with Leinster is the price for a family of 4

Our season tickets range from €299 to €749 for adults whereas Saracens range from £300 to £1130

The % increase in Season Tickets was an eye opener as well.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » January 22nd, 2020, 7:45 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I don't care about the previous titles but is there any chance that they don't play in the QF? I know RTB mentioned something about the French owners talking about the whole issue but I can't work out if the punishment is done and dusted now or if there's more to come. I would imagine that if the 9th placed team (can't remember who it was in the end) raised an objection then they would have universal support to throw Saracens out.

I think I'd be pushing for that if I had any involvement, it makes no sense to have them as contenders in the circumstances. There's still so much uncertainty (e.g. the point about having to spend two years in the Championship) that I think there's more to come.

9th placed team was Glasgow I think.
They have severely tarnished the prl trophies won while cheating. If the ECPR dont act now, they risk the champions cup being severely tarnished as well. Don't forget that the French were nudged into a salary cap after the toulon wins a few years ago.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby ronk » January 22nd, 2020, 8:53 pm

I don't think they should be stripped of their titles. For one things the salary cap rules don't include it as a punishment. Breaking the rules to suit Exeter is no better than Saracens breaking them. It wouldn't be justice.

They won on the pitch with players who weren't cheating.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Fan with smartphone » January 22nd, 2020, 10:02 pm

A full investigative audit “inevitably would have involved a long period of more financial and emotional strain, and this in turn meant this was not a viable option for us.” Oh well when you put it like that, it seems totally reasonable. I’d say the truth might cause a fair old financial and emotional strain alright.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby nc6000 » January 22nd, 2020, 11:18 pm

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby locho » January 22nd, 2020, 11:26 pm

nc6000 wrote:https://news.sky.com/story/revealed-how-saracens-broke-rugbys-salary-cap-rules-11915269


The headline breaches are Very underwhelming! Are the co-investments included in those breach figures I wonder?
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby ronk » January 22nd, 2020, 11:40 pm

nc6000 wrote:https://news.sky.com/story/revealed-how-saracens-broke-rugbys-salary-cap-rules-11915269


So the panel said it wasn't deliberate and relegation would be excessive. The other clubs didn't agree.

Also the amounts are much smaller than the rumours.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby blockhead » January 22nd, 2020, 11:41 pm

A few quid here a few quid there. What's the big deal?
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Sarecens: Full details of payments which breached Premiership salary cap revealed

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby Dave Cahill » January 22nd, 2020, 11:42 pm

It's an interestingly timed leak.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Postby blockhead » January 22nd, 2020, 11:44 pm

ronk wrote:
nc6000 wrote:https://news.sky.com/story/revealed-how-saracens-broke-rugbys-salary-cap-rules-11915269


So the panel said it wasn't deliberate and relegation would be excessive. The other clubs didn't agree.

Also the amounts are much smaller than the rumours.


The other clubs had titles, playoffs and freedom from relegation on their minds.
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