Pro12 General Discussion

[[Jackass]]

I thought there was a thread already on this but can't find it anywhere, but if I missed it feel free to lock this.

I don't know how long the title will correctly reflect our domestic game either, but good news being that according to this Italian news article, the Italian sides will be signing on for another 4 years having successfully leveraged their position in the current chaos to remove the €3,000,000 fee paid by the Italian sides to participate and to be equal partners going forward until the new charter expires in 2018.

Presumably equal partner means equal representation on the board and equal voting representation in Celtic Rugby, which should be renamed Pro12 Rugby sooner rather than later.

The article also moots that the word coming from the meetings that were held is that with 90% certainty, the Welsh regional situation has been resolved also, and the Pro12 will resume as normal from next season.

Other considerations coming out of the meeting, Zebre are to remain in Parma for now, but this will be monitored and the topic of whether Zebre should remain under Italian Federation control or become a private entity is also under review. Given how the English clubs are ganging up on their own union, the Welsh regions fighting with their own union, the French Clubs being bribed to stay in Europe by their own union, privately owned Treviso rocking the boat with their outburst presumably against the wishes of their union and the only two set of clubs who haven't stirred any trouble in all of this, the Irish and Scottish, who are both entirely union controlled, I think it would be wise to keep team union affiliated at this point, as much as possible, at least during an unstable period in the European game such as this.

The article hints at a rift with Treviso and their union and the ongoing possibility of an Italian franchise, either in Rome or in Milan (which I think is essential), as a replacement to Treviso if it came to that. I'd rather see Zebre replaced if they fail to take off in Parma as has been the case so far and get a big city team going in Rome or Milan where the crowd base and infrastructure for rugby exists. In an ideal world though, I'd like to see Italian domestic rugby thrive and eventually have 4 Italian franchises in the league: Treviso and Zebre + two franchises from Rome and Milan.

The article summarises that, regardless of the posturing by Treviso, Italian domestic rugby has absolutely no alternative to the Pro12 and a domestic league is not viable, which is a good point to finish on and I entirely agree.

Having said all of that and the supposedly good news for the league, it came on the same day that Italian rugby suffered a massive set-back for their progress in the league, with flag-ship Italian side Treviso suffering the indignity of being humiliated 75 - 7 in Swansea...the heaviest defeat suffered by any side since since the formation of the league back in 2001/02.

[[Jackass]]

As a general discussion sort of thread about Celtic / Pro12 rugby, if we did have to expand the league either in the immediate term (if the Welsh were to pull out / be expelled from the league again) or in the long term, where could we see extra teams coming from?

Massive scope in Italy for 4 teams, but there problem is all about funding. But I think they're missing a trick by not trying to expand into major cities rather than trying to stick with rugby strongholds, mainly because they'll just never be big enough and it's short sighted. I'm on board with Treviso as they have traditionally had a big backer in Benetton, although rumours are abound that they might be pulling the plug, to face the financial shortfall, the Italian Federation does seem to favour the French model and private investors owning clbs.

This would spring to mind the type of model that exists in European Basketball, this is a wild and out there idea, but with teams like Barcelona and Real Madrid funding professional basketball teams to compete at the top level in European basketball, which is very successful and popular. Would it be conceivable to approach As Roma or SS Lazio in Rome and AC Milan or Inter Milan in Milan to see if they would be interested in having a professional rugby sporting side with the budget required being a drop in the ocean to the type of revenue those sports clubs generate and it could really lend a strong brand to the new rugby clubs in those cities with access to a massive support base from an emerging sport. Could definitely be an option, all be it a "thinking out of the box" one, that could be very difficult to negotiate, but given the rapid growth of the game in the last 10 years and the money involved in the game across the continent in TV rights and attendances, the business suits in the main football clubs could see a potentially profitable subsidiary of their existing interests and to have their finger in many pies including emerging sports. Those kind of clubs could come into existence with very decent funding and facilities behind them from day one.

If that was a success, there would be a clear framework to try and bring Spain into the equation a long long way down the line also.

Also, with London Welsh and London Scottish both struggling to become anything more than Championship dwellers in England, these are existing clubs with playing staff and grounds that could make for a very smooth transition if the wished to accept invitations to compete in the Pro12 as additional Welsh and Scottish unioned clubs, and we could probably offer them at least the same level of funding but with a better quality opposition to attract better crowds and potential to fight for a spot in European rugby. London Welsh would bring established and viable clubs to the table who are upper tier championship sides who presumably would buy into this pan-European style Europa League playing top-flight rugby, hopefully with better funding than they're getting, and European rugby on the cards, as well as still being participants in the B&I Cup along with Pro12 and no relegation would given them financial stability and I think this type of competition would be more exciting to fans of having exotic teams (not mosely or bristol, but Leinster, Ospreys, Munster, Ulster etc,) as well as a great derby element against fellow Welsh / Scottish team AND the London derbies between the Irish/Welsh/Scottish London based teams...

Finally, an additional Irish team, could either be a relegated London Irish (again, the club and everything remaining the exact same, all London clubs continuing to play based out of London with current stadium, squad and set up) merely be invited to compete in the Pro12 instead of the Championship in England. Bringing teams like that over could be a real coup for the league and extended a playing base to London where a lot of exiles would exist.

Seeing as London Irish would be the least likely to be able to attract, there is also the possibility of reviving the 5th Irish province, the Irish Exiles (who competed in the Irish interprovincial championship before). Major stumbling blocks would be establish an base for them, getting a sufficient base of players for them, and until Connacht are self sufficiently funding and competitive, this might now be an option, but looking at it long term, as crazy as it sounds, you could end up with a Pro 16/18 table looking like

Irish: (5 teams)

Connacht
Leinster
London Irish / Exiles
Munster
Ulster

Welsh: (5 teams)

Blues
Dragons
London Welsh
Ospreys
Scarlets

Scottish: (3 teams)

Edinburgh
Glasgow
London Scottish

Italian: (3/4 teams)

Benetton Treviso
AS Roma RFC / SS Lazio RFC
Ac Milan RFC / Inter Milan RFC
Zebre

I final team representation that could be considered would be a "Rest of Europe" team, based on players from Russia, Spain, Portugal, Georgia, Romania etc. - availability of players and funding would of course be a problem, but if the ERC / IRB saw it as a great strategy of developing the game more in the emerging territories, they may look to get involved to see it happen.

Just an idea, but fun to think about when looking to make the league grow and thrive and turn it into something really special.

I think it has the potential to be the top European league through its diversity and if it can over time claim more and more market share in as many geographical locations, its value as a product could grow and grow too.

If it got to the stage over time that we could accommodate so many teams over a long term plan, say up to 18, we could look to have a two pool league system like when the league first started, with two pools of 9 or whatever, with the top two going on to a superbowl play-off type scenario. It's all very out there, but with all the doom and gloom surrounding the Pro12 and Heineken Cup rugby, I thought it would be nice to put together an fantasy type scenario about what COULD be a viable option as something else or how the league could evolve over time.

[[Jackass]]

*double post*

[Dave Cahill]

Stong rumours that Carlin Isles has signed for Glasgow

[johng]

http://rugbymag.com/americans-overseas-/10511.html

[blockhead]

If the Italians plough that E3M back into the 2 clubs and bring back some of their exiles, Paisse & Masi for eg, then they could become a lot more competitive in the league and Europe. Treviso finished 7th last season and only 4 pts behind Munster, I dont know what happened to them this season, wheels have come off.
The loss of 4 spots in the Heino is going to make the league a lot more important. We will have to rotate our players now rather than rest them .
A re-look at the playoff structure is required too. Currently the semis are just not generating the gates, our lowest gates for the last couple of years have been the Pro12 Semis v Glasgow. They should be sell outs. The 1 week gap between the last game of season and Semi is too short to shift tickets, only a semi v Munster would fill the RDS at present.
A 6 team playoff would be better. Teams 3rd to 6th playoff to earn a semi against the 1st & 2nd. Tickets for the semi would then have a 2 week window at least to sell.
Not having a permanent venue for the final is also an issue, one that we cannot overcome given our 4 country representation. Again a 2 week window to sell the tickets for the final, for eg, only a Munster V Leinster final would justify going to the Aviva.

[Logorrhea]

our lowest gates for the last couple of years have been the Pro12 Semis v Glasgow. They should be sell outs.

Ahhh but at that time of the year the fans are also being asked to fork out on Amlin/HEC semis, plan for trips to the finals of both competitions etc. As well as that I think the season ticket renewals are issued around that time too.

Its easy to see why so many skip the less important of the games around then.

[blockhead]

our lowest gates for the last couple of years have been the Pro12 Semis v Glasgow. They should be sell outs.

Ahhh but at that time of the year the fans are also being asked to fork out on Amlin/HEC semis, plan for trips to the finals of both competitions etc. As well as that I think the season ticket renewals are issued around that time too.

Its easy to see why so many skip the less important of the games around then.

When and if the time comes that a Pro12 semi is just as important as a Heino one then the PRL cannot threaten us anymore.

[rooster]

A big part of Trevisos muscle flexing is that Zebre get far more FIR funding and they would quite like a decent lump of the 3 million they hope to save, it is a pretty expensive hobby for the Benetton family at present.

[[Jackass]]

Yes, it's a very strange system the Italians have.

Half French, half Celtic system, with a private sponsored and union sponsored team. The union should maybe look to take half ownership of Treviso (at the price of a symbolic €1)and sell half a share in Zebre (for whatever they can get), that way they can pump equal funding into both teams and have additional private funding at both teams to maximize revenue whilst also having a strong influence on decision making to maximise club/country cooperation.

Regarding the play-offs, we've had a unique situation every year since they came in of one team (always Leinster ;P) having a European semi before the league semi and a European final before the league final, and we've been at home in all but 1 of the league finals, so it's a tough sell to get lots of tickets shifted as it's an expensive time of year.

Not that I'd ever wish we weren't that busy at that time of year, but supposing all play-off participants were out of Europe by that stage, with the two week lead in to the semi and then another two weeks to the final and fans not paying for other knock-out rugby, as well as possibly two trips abroad to a semi and a final, the gates would be complete sell outs.

I would love to see a "neutral" final brought in, with it being hosted in the home union of the top ranked team (similar to a home semi in the Heineken Cup), but that's extremely unlikely that teams like Ulster and Munster would want to cede home advantage from Ravenhill or Thomond for a home final, especially if they were to finish first but then have to play Leinster in Lansdowne for example, but at least the IRFU would have the power to make that call. I don't think the Welsh would mind a home final in the Millenium stadium regardless of opposition or the Scottish would mind Murrayfield (and even still, Glasgow could opt for Hampdon Park in Glasgow if they wanted, one way or another they'd have to move as Scotston wouldn't be big enough, ditto Italian teams to Stadio Flaminio, although I don't think Italian or Scottish unions will be facing that problem any time soon). But it would be great to have that big day final atmosphere the Aviva Premiership generates, almost akin to a Heineken Cup final.

I definitely don't like the idea of extra play-off rounds, I think it's just more fixture congestion and the French model really squeezes a lot of games out of players as it is, their season is brutal if you are competing on two fronts, Guy Noves saying it is not possible to win the Top14 and Heineken Cup in one season as the fixtures are way too congested to compete at knock-out rugby intensity that many times in a short space of time.

[Oldschool]

Yes, it's a very strange system the Italians have.

Half French, half Celtic system, with a private sponsored and union sponsored team. The union should maybe look to take half ownership of Treviso (at the price of a symbolic €1)and sell half a share in Zebre (for whatever they can get), that way they can pump equal funding into both teams and have additional private funding at both teams to maximize revenue whilst also having a strong influence on decision making to maximise club/country cooperation.

Regarding the play-offs, we've had a unique situation every year since they came in of one team (always Leinster ;P) having a European semi before the league semi and a European final before the league final, and we've been at home in all but 1 of the league finals, so it's a tough sell to get lots of tickets shifted as it's an expensive time of year.

Not that I'd ever wish we weren't that busy at that time of year, but supposing all play-off participants were out of Europe by that stage, with the two week lead in to the semi and then another two weeks to the final and fans not paying for other knock-out rugby, as well as possibly two trips abroad to a semi and a final, the gates would be complete sell outs.

I would love to see a "neutral" final brought in, with it being hosted in the home union of the top ranked team (similar to a home semi in the Heineken Cup), but that's extremely unlikely that teams like Ulster and Munster would want to cede home advantage from Ravenhill or Thomond for a home final, especially if they were to finish first but then have to play Leinster in Lansdowne for example, but at least the IRFU would have the power to make that call. I don't think the Welsh would mind a home final in the Millenium stadium regardless of opposition or the Scottish would mind Murrayfield (and even still, Glasgow could opt for Hampdon Park in Glasgow if they wanted, one way or another they'd have to move as Scotston wouldn't be big enough, ditto Italian teams to Stadio Flaminio, although I don't think Italian or Scottish unions will be facing that problem any time soon). But it would be great to have that big day final atmosphere the Aviva Premiership generates, almost akin to a Heineken Cup final.

I definitely don't like the idea of extra play-off rounds, I think it's just more fixture congestion and the French model really squeezes a lot of games out of players as it is, their season is brutal if you are competing on two fronts, Guy Noves saying it is not possible to win the Top14 and Heineken Cup in one season as the fixtures are way too congested to compete at knock-out rugby intensity that many times in a short space of time.

Re - Guy Noves comment I think it's a bit of a cop out. It may have been the case once upon a time but not any more.
The top French teams have big squads and regularly rest their best players for away games.
We've all seen that French teams are just not as well conditioned as our players. This has become even more noticeable in the last couple of years.
They rely too much on overpowering their opponents early on and killing them off.
It's that lack of fitness that is their problem more than any other single thing. Teams know now that if you can survive their power game for an hour then the french are in trouble.
The closing of the skills gap by other teams is another important factor. English teams haven't closed this gap and that's why they are struggling in Europe.

[BlueBlue]

Finally, an additional Irish team, could either be a relegated London Irish (again, the club and everything remaining the exact same, all London clubs continuing to play based out of London with current stadium, squad and set up) merely be invited to compete in the Pro12 instead of the Championship in England. Bringing teams like that over could be a real coup for the league and extended a playing base to London where a lot of exiles would exist.

Jackass, the Aviva premiership sabre rattling thread turned into a debate on the future of the Pro-12. I put forward the idea of a 5th Irish team among other things and was met with a very emotional response for the tired and emotional posters, the response was akin to an Irish TV debate on Nuclear power or abortion, where your accused of being stupid or being burnt at the stake for even suggesting that it could be discussed. They'll find this thread shortly, so be prepared.

My view point is quite simple, we need to do something to build on what is a fantastic rugby comp that is the pro-12. My biggest problem is not the Pro-12 in itself, but the fact that RRW run / own 4 of the teams. The RRW have failed to capture the imagination of the welsh rugby public, they scape goat the pro12 for this, even though Connacht has on occasion have beaten the regions in attendance at H-Cup games. If they cannot sell the H-Cup, they cannot sell anything and this is the real problem. The structure / ownership / control and ambition of welsh rugby and incompetence of the RRW is the real problem. We understand how the WRU RRW have ended up here, but that does not solve the problem. We need the WRU to fix the problem by bringing the regions under its control and thus providing stability to Wales and Pro-12, which could be done by having dual contracts for 7 to 8 welsh players in each region or by WRU buying out 2 regions. If this does not happen the Aviva Prem PRL will always be in a better negotiating position by pulling the rug from under us, when the RRW lads leave at the drop of the hat, which currently means that the Pro12 is no longer viable. The PRL don't actually have to bring the welsh into there comp, they just need to bluff it and the RRW fools fall for it, this is the second time the poor fools have bought it. Until the RRW problems is sorted, the Pro12 will have no stability. In parallel to the WRU sorting RRW, we need a plan-B. I was suggesting setting up a Pro12 Div 2. The idea being that this could run along side the Pro12 , building in quality over an 8 year period, then promotion / relegation could begin. With the end result being 2 div's with 10 teams each. My ideas on where these other 8 teams come from are similar to your own. If this was achieved, the RRW could leave to join England clubs, but I think this would be a busted bluff if we were in a position to say goodbye, as we would be able to promote teams from Div , and invite new teams into the lower division. The 2nd Div is our insurance against stupid partners like the RRW and grows the game.

[BlueBlue]

The pro-12 final could rotate between, Dublin, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Rome. That would be an amazing opportunity leveraging the cosmopolitan element in the Pro12. The H-cup had to do it to move the sale of tickets, we could also do it. Imagine being able to plan a weekend in Rome early in the season.

[rooster]

Yes, it's a very strange system the Italians have.

Half French, half Celtic system, with a private sponsored and union sponsored team. The union should maybe look to take half ownership of Treviso (at the price of a symbolic €1)and sell half a share in Zebre (for whatever they can get), that way they can pump equal funding into both teams and have additional private funding at both teams to maximize revenue whilst also having a strong influence on decision making to maximise club/country cooperation.

They are looking for someone to take on Zebre anyway and have been doing so.

[Oldschool]

The pro-12 final could rotate between, Dublin, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Rome. That would be an amazing opportunity leveraging the cosmopolitan element in the Pro12. The H-cup had to do it to move the sale of tickets, we could also do it. Imagine being able to plan a weekend in Rome early in the season.

That's a very good idea BB as it would add a bit of prestige to the competition - Keep up the positivity. The sabre's will be back in their scabbards soon enough and then it's forward to the future.

[Fireworks]

The pro-12 final could rotate between, Dublin, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Rome. That would be an amazing opportunity leveraging the cosmopolitan element in the Pro12. The H-cup had to do it to move the sale of tickets, we could also do it. Imagine being able to plan a weekend in Rome early in the season.

That's a very good idea BB as it would add a bit of prestige to the competition - Keep up the positivity. The sabre's will be back in their scabbards soon enough and then it's forward to the future.

A good idea that might need to wait a few years. The league and the final are not big enough draws for that yet. The reason the final is at the home ground of one of the finalists is to help keep the numbers up. If we were playing Ospreys in a final in Rome just after a HC final it might be tough to get the numbers to travel and I am not sure if the local support would be enough.

On a positive note it might help to promote the game in places like Rome.

[BlueBlue]

The pro-12 final could rotate between, Dublin, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Rome. That would be an amazing opportunity leveraging the cosmopolitan element in the Pro12. The H-cup had to do it to move the sale of tickets, we could also do it. Imagine being able to plan a weekend in Rome early in the season.

That's a very good idea BB as it would add a bit of prestige to the competition - Keep up the positivity. The sabre's will be back in their scabbards soon enough and then it's forward to the future.

A good idea that might need to wait a few years. The league and the final are not big enough draws for that yet. The reason the final is at the home ground of one of the finalists is to help keep the numbers up. If we were playing Ospreys in a final in Rome just after a HC final it might be tough to get the numbers to travel and I am not sure if the local support would be enough.

On a positive note it might help to promote the game in places like Rome.

The local might appreciate it,

[BlueBlue]

The Romans might appreciate it..

[blockhead]

The Pro 12 final has to be at least in the home country of one of the competing teams otherwise it could be a right damp squib. Imagine Glasgow V Ospreys in Dublin for example. This means of course that tickets cannot be sold or even printed before the semis are complete. This is a problem of a 4 country league. Having one of the teams play it their own stadium gives the chance to get a decent crowd in. The last 4 Pro 12 finals have been in the RDS (3) and TP(1) with packed houses. I dread the spectacle of Edinburgh v anyone in Murrayfield.

[paddyor]

Finally, an additional Irish team, could either be a relegated London Irish (again, the club and everything remaining the exact same, all London clubs continuing to play based out of London with current stadium, squad and set up) merely be invited to compete in the Pro12 instead of the Championship in England. Bringing teams like that over could be a real coup for the league and extended a playing base to London where a lot of exiles would exist.

That'd run directly into opposition from the RFU with IRB backing for basically the same reason that the AW was a non runner. The dispute seems to be all but settled why drag it up again and give the PRL ammo to say that the league doesn't deserve it's 7 spots in the new competition. I'm against a 5th province but that seems a haphazard way to go about it. An Exiles team might work but it's difficult to say if it would attract much support and the ground would have to be in England running into the problem of the RFU again.

Jackass, the Aviva premiership sabre rattling thread turned into a debate on the future of the Pro-12. I put forward the idea of a 5th Irish team among other things and was met with a very emotional response for the tired and emotional posters, the response was akin to an Irish TV debate on Nuclear power or abortion, where your accused of being stupid or being burnt at the stake for even suggesting that it could be discussed. They'll find this thread shortly, so be prepared.

IIRC it was you who turned it into a discussion on the future of the Pro-12. The response was nothing like debates about abortion or nuclear power, though some dismissed it out of hand mostly because of funding, others pondered what might be the Province(Meath). It was pointed out to you that
1) The IRFU don't have the money for it, having failed to sell off the 10 year seats, we've already had to adjust our budget.
2) You are as unlikely as others to give up you're team and support a new "province"
3) We don't have the players for a fifth competitive team as demonstrated by the fact we barely have the players for a fourth competitive team
4) As the most stable part of the league we shouldn't take big risks that endanger the leagues most stable and successful teams(the existing provinces - 3 anyway)
5) A fifth province would mean a smaller share of IRFU funding for all provinces(it would be dependent on IRFU funding for a long time), making it harder to hold onto players
6) The SRU don't have the money for a 3rd team and would be better served strengthening what's there. Ditto the Italians, less so on the money front but they'd be better served making their teams competitive.
7) Just because we aren't doing something big and showy, doesn't mean we aren't doing anything. We are holding on to our best players, we have increased TV revenue and possibly sponsorship. Gate revenues have been rising steadily for the past few years and the games have a much higher profile in local and national media than previously (IMO).

Where's the dogma?

My view point is quite simple, we need to do something to build on what is a fantastic rugby comp that is the pro-12. My biggest problem is not the Pro-12 in itself, but the fact that RRW run / own 4 of the teams. The RRW have failed to capture the imagination of the welsh rugby public, they scape goat the pro12 for this, even though Connacht has on occasion have beaten the regions in attendance at H-Cup games. If they cannot sell the H-Cup, they cannot sell anything and this is the real problem. The structure / ownership / control and ambition of welsh rugby and incompetence of the RRW is the real problem. We understand how the WRU RRW have ended up here, but that does not solve the problem. We need the WRU to fix the problem by bringing the regions under its control and thus providing stability to Wales and Pro-12, which could be done by having dual contracts for 7 to 8 welsh players in each region or by WRU buying out 2 regions. If this does not happen the Aviva Prem PRL will always be in a better negotiating position by pulling the rug from under us, when the RRW lads leave at the drop of the hat, which currently means that the Pro12 is no longer viable. The PRL don't actually have to bring the welsh into there comp, they just need to bluff it and the RRW fools fall for it, this is the second time the poor fools have bought it. Until the RRW problems is sorted, the Pro12 will have no stability. In parallel to the WRU sorting RRW, we need a plan-B. I was suggesting setting up a Pro12 Div 2. The idea being that this could run along side the Pro12 , building in quality over an 8 year period, then promotion / relegation could begin. With the end result being 2 div's with 10 teams each. My ideas on where these other 8 teams come from are similar to your own. If this was achieved, the RRW could leave to join England clubs, but I think this would be a busted bluff if we were in a position to say goodbye, as we would be able to promote teams from Div , and invite new teams into the lower division. The 2nd Div is our insurance against stupid partners like the RRW and grows the game.

I think it's either sink or swim for the RRW. By the time the threat of an AW re-emerges they'll have folded or gone under union control. They're already struggling to keep their top players and had to get an emergency loan from the WRU to cover the delayed ERC payments.