Fair enough- you've mentioned (as I have previously) several of the players that would have benefited from the system, if it was in place now- Morris, Hudson, O'Connell- and to that I'd add Madigan and the unfortunate McKinlay a couple of years ago. The latter two would certainly have gained from a year or two in London and the AP. Those- and Hagen, Sheriff , Artymev, etc.- despite your dismissal of them, show we had the capacity to produce quality players in Leinster alone. Munster and Ulster had their potential exiles too.LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Apologies for the snide remark. There was merit in it though, you really can't contemplate this as being a runner if you can't list the players who would be available or aren't aware of the strength of their squad. It'd be like a bank promising to loan money without checking if they actually have any cash, just assuming its there because it was in the past.
I'm not asking you to predict who will be a success or not, all I've asked for is a list of guys who are finishing up in the academy this summer or have done so in the last couple of summers. Those guys will have the kind of age profile that's relevant to this idea. From that list you can whittle it down to the guys who aren't important to their province and find guys who are struggling for games but might have a future if they get them. It's not rocket science. So far you haven't come up with one player who could make the move to LI if the deal was struck for this summer, how can you not see that that is an issue? You say they're there so I really can't fathom why you refuse to name one.
Hagan is a bad example because, assuming a loan deal would be one or two years at most, he has done nothing in his one year so far to suggest that he has improved and we could use him if he came back. So why would you assume it'll work for anyone else? Similarly, Copeland wasn't ready for the top league straight away. He needed to go to Plymouth and then Rotherham before getting the move to Cardiff. Sheriff is another player you mentioned and he wasn't ready for Premiership rugby in his first season either. This is his third season away now and he won't be anywhere near the Sarries squad on Saturday, do you think a loan deal for LI would have done him much good? If I remember correctly, Artemiev started off in the championship and wasn't good enough for Northampton in the AP, now he's back in Russia. Morris is a good player who would have benefitted from this kind of move, I'd happily take him back. O'Connell and Hudson might have been too.
I'm not against loan deals, I just don't think we have the players (and again, prove me wrong by producing the list I've asked for) for this kind of arrangement. We would probably need two players a year to make it viable and I really don't think the provinces can spare that. We might be able to give them two players, but I think they would be of similar quality to the guys above. I don't understand this obsession with holding onto guys who have left the system. Sometimes they just aren't good enough or there just isn't a place for them. Take Copeland for example, I saw him at schools level and thought he was brilliant. Then heard great things from friends of mine who played with him for Mary's under 20s, saw him play for the firsts and thought he was great then too. There was nothing to suggest that he would become the player he has though, there would have been no loan to LI for him. We can't keep everyone in the net until their careers have ended.
As I said, loan deals are fine, just don't think you can do it in this systematic way. I won't name names given that you won't, but if player X is a second row and finishes in the academy this summer, and we think a loan deal would benefit him then I would hate for him to go to LI just to fill that quota of two, when he may not be good enough to actually get meaningful game time. There could be a French team that suits everyone's requirements better but you're snookered because you're struggling to send LI the two players you've promised them.
On Copeland, I was against bringing him back to Leinster because of the number and quality of our back rowers, nothing against him as a player and think he's a brilliant signing for Munster.
I think I've backed up my stance pretty well so won't be arguing any further.
Making a conservative 5 or 6 players available from the three provinces to LI each year, would be a significant attraction to that club. And I think your explanation of Copeland's abilities and maturation confirms- despite your conclusion that he would have benefitted too. That's also my last joust on the number of players that could avail of a loan. And if that stacks up- the other benefits on gaining a share of the AP funding pot stand tall. That's my bit now....
What they're doing now in signings has no real relevance on what they might do if they had a partnership deal. They clearly state they want to increase the Irish interest in the club and they've made a start. The quote you chose not to notice stated, “Every year we play over in Munster and when we have problems with injuries, I am on the phone to the guys at Leinster, Ulster and Munster asking can we loan or trade players."