London Irish- the 5th Green Field?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I already said I hated this kind of idea in another thread and nothing above makes me think it's possible or even a good idea.

I think you've missed a fairly major point. You said that its a no brainer that they'd want our players but is it really?

If I was the London Irish coach and I wanted to get into the play off places then I don't think I'd have any Leinster academy players anywhere near the team. Why on earth would you try and develop inexperienced and untested guys who will be heading home in a year or two if they improve sufficiently? We're not talking Rocky Elsom impact here, these are young guys who need games, not ones who will add much value to the cause. If they're not ready to start and just end up being squad members then they could have just stayed here anyway.

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

Think about it from a Leinster point of view, would you take 22 year old no name Leicester second row on a season long loan?

No- with respect I think you are missing the point here. LI would certainly be interested in having academy graduates (not ciurrent academy players) in the team. How do I know? Well, we do know that PLR and other teams sign them when they are available; Morris, Artimev, Copeland, come to mind. Players who have come through an excellent academy and have some hardening off in the Rabo. Of course LI would want access to them in a deal that priveliges them over their PLR rivals. The point on the heading home is that it is negotiable- we have the option, but if it suits all involved- the player could negotiate to stay in London. We'd lose a few we'd want to keep- but get back a few we might have lost otherwise too. The players get contracts and experience and the IRFU and LI get ring-fenced access to quality players. And in answer to your question- of course i wouldn't take a 'no name' 22 year old second row; but I would take a a 'named' player of quality on the same basis. Wh=y would we not- we bloody well sign some duds on longer contracts as it is!

We have a problem with 'stacking' players in certain position across the provinces- we either are pro-active and try to mange it to the best of our ability- or we let them bleed away with any real hop[e of getting them back. That's okay if you have a palying pool the size of the big countries- but we don't have that luxury.

But how can someone be "named" and "of quality" if they've just graduated from the academy and haven't established themselves with a province though?

Can you come up with a list of guys who will graduate from the academy this summer or who are a year or two out of the academy but are only in the fringes who would be good enough to play for LI next September as they push for the play offs?

If you can come up with a couple of players (and keep in mind that LI are a team who have bought players of the calibre of James O'Connor and CJ Van Der Linde this season so, as good as they are, are unlikely to be too interested in Jack O'Connell or Darren Hudson), do you think we could keep that up every summer for the next five years?

And why should the IRFU create this pool of players ahead of helping Connacht anyway?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

....

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

.....

This is a really good point. Given how easily we've beat some Championship teams in the B+I cup though would it be much of a step up in standard?

No- it's not really a good pooint. It negates two of the advantages- we won't make money from Championship teams in the 'new HC' and most our post-academy (from all provinces mind...) players are capable of playing well above Championship level.

If we do a deal- it should be with a AP club. Of course LI could always get relegated... Well- its possible even from the AP!

I wasn't suggesting we team up with a championship team.

I was just being more realistic about the level the players we could loan out are at.

[Fireworks]

I am in general agreement with the concept of loan contracts and having an Irish presence in other leagues. However the how is a tricky one.

There are lots of good points above about the pro's and con's but I think that it takes those who really know the reality of the situation and who would have to implement it to tell us which points on each side have merit. I would support having a few well placed people meeting to play with these ideas and to explore which are workable.

[All Blacks nil]

Lets illustrate by example

Insert 15 candidates here although you will need 30+

Which currently contracted players would you loan out.
When considering various candidates
Consider the fact that this team would have to avoid relegation from the Premiership to reap any benefit as people are in agreement that loaning guys to the Championship would not be beneficial.
Consider the fact that if a guy is doing well for this team he will inevitably be brought home denying his new Premiership team of by definition their better players.
Consider the fact that as a feeder club you are probably not including any current M23 and more players.

When you consider these facts personally I cannot see what would in effect be a combined provinces A team surviving at elite level

[Keith]

Rotherham could nearly be considered a 5th province at this stage. There are constantly Irish players coming and going from there and they are doing great at developing the lads. The likes of Noone, Dougall and Copeland have all played there and moved up to the next level. They currently have Scanlan, Birch and Keating there now, with Macklin joining there this season.

Long may our relationship with the Titans continue!

[artaneboy]

Lets illustrate by example

Insert 15 candidates here although you will need 30+

Which currently contracted players would you loan out.
When considering various candidates
Consider the fact that this team would have to avoid relegation from the Premiership to reap any benefit as people are in agreement that loaning guys to the Championship would not be beneficial.
Consider the fact that if a guy is doing well for this team he will inevitably be brought home denying his new Premiership team of by definition their better players.
Consider the fact that as a feeder club you are probably not including any current M23 and more players.

When you consider these facts personally I cannot see what would in effect be a combined provinces A team surviving at elite level

C'mon! This stuff is missing the point completely. We re talking London Irish only here- we are not talking of making up a full team or squad. 15 to 30 players- Jezz! We could be talking on average of three players or 8 players here.

For a start I'm not going to start proving a concept by listing players- and then have the inevitable, "he's not good enough; we'd never let him go on loan... yada, yada, yada" bit. Are you saying we could not find that amount of quality players among the four academy graduates? Of course we could. Hagan and Morris went without encouragement in recent years; O'Connell and Hudson are going this seasons's end.

LI might be endangered by regulation- but as they're doing okay at it stands, the addition of further player recruitment should strenghten them further. Even if they are relegated- a year in the Championship would not be terminal. It might not be ideal- but the standard is okay- certainly as good as they'd play in the B&I Cup.

As to LI being disappointed at losing loan players- sure they'd be. But if they want them that bad, they could look to either extend the loan or buy out the IRFU contract. Either way it's an amicable commercial cagreement among partners who realise that it suits all parties better than players getting impatient and leaving the system.

[artaneboy]

This is a really good point. Given how easily we've beat some Championship teams in the B+I cup though would it be much of a step up in standard?

No- it's not really a good pooint. It negates two of the advantages- we won't make money from Championship teams in the 'new HC' and most our post-academy (from all provinces mind...) players are capable of playing well above Championship level.

If we do a deal- it should be with a AP club. Of course LI could always get relegated... Well- its possible even from the AP!

I wasn't suggesting we team up with a championship team. I was just being more realistic about the level the players we could loan out are at.

Well we just don't agree on that. I see Hagan (his current troubles notwithstnding), Morris, Hudson and O'Connell- all being at least AP squad players

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Which is my point...squad players.

LI wouldn't want Darren Hudson for a year to improve their play off prospects.

There's also the issue that the players themselves may not want to go. Not just that they may not want to go but they would probably want to go somewhere where they were guaranteed first team rugby, otherwise why bother leaving?

Hence why JOC and Hudson have gone to Bristol.

So even if you can come up with a group of players each summer who could hypothetically improve LI's team and who you think the exercise would be useful for, there's every chance that they won't be interested in going.

[artaneboy]

I already said I hated this kind of idea in another thread and nothing above makes me think it's possible or even a good idea.

I think you've missed a fairly major point. You said that its a no brainer that they'd want our players but is it really?

If I was the London Irish coach and I wanted to get into the play off places then I don't think I'd have any Leinster academy players anywhere near the team. Why on earth would you try and develop inexperienced and untested guys who will be heading home in a year or two if they improve sufficiently? We're not talking Rocky Elsom impact here, these are young guys who need games, not ones who will add much value to the cause. If they're not ready to start and just end up being squad members then they could have just stayed here anyway.

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

Think about it from a Leinster point of view, would you take 22 year old no name Leicester second row on a season long loan?

No- with respect I think you are missing the point here. LI would certainly be interested in having academy graduates (not ciurrent academy players) in the team. How do I know? Well, we do know that PLR and other teams sign them when they are available; Morris, Artimev, Copeland, come to mind. Players who have come through an excellent academy and have some hardening off in the Rabo. Of course LI would want access to them in a deal that priveliges them over their PLR rivals. The point on the heading home is that it is negotiable- we have the option, but if it suits all involved- the player could negotiate to stay in London. We'd lose a few we'd want to keep- but get back a few we might have lost otherwise too. The players get contracts and experience and the IRFU and LI get ring-fenced access to quality players. And in answer to your question- of course i wouldn't take a 'no name' 22 year old second row; but I would take a a 'named' player of quality on the same basis. Wh=y would we not- we bloody well sign some duds on longer contracts as it is!

We have a problem with 'stacking' players in certain position across the provinces- we either are pro-active and try to mange it to the best of our ability- or we let them bleed away with any real hop[e of getting them back. That's okay if you have a palying pool the size of the big countries- but we don't have that luxury.

But how can someone be "named" and "of quality" if they've just graduated from the academy and haven't established themselves with a province though?

Can you come up with a list of guys who will graduate from the academy this summer or who are a year or two out of the academy but are only in the fringes who would be good enough to play for LI next September as they push for the play offs?

If you can come up with a couple of players (and keep in mind that LI are a team who have bought players of the calibre of James O'Connor and CJ Van Der Linde this season so, as good as they are, are unlikely to be too interested in Jack O'Connell or Darren Hudson), do you think we could keep that up every summer for the next five years?

And why should the IRFU create this pool of players ahead of helping Connacht anyway?

Oh no you don't! Listing future players proves nothing- as you well know. You can argue the toss on whose of value and who's too young and nothing is settled. What we can do is look at who has gone to the AP in recent years and is earning a crust there. Artemyev, Morris, Steenson, Hagan, Sheriff, and others have taken the boat to England. I'd propose that all those are of value- and with our small playing population, we should not be losing them to the system.

On LI having other options- of course they have. When we signed Ollie, Rocky or Isa- did that mean that Cian, Senie or Dave K could not be accomodated? No- of course it didn't. They would certainly be interested in O'Connell and Hudson. This is LI- they have stated clearly they won't be 'doing a Toulon' and signing pile of galaticos.

We are talking about a few players a year from the combined provinces. And who's saying that we need to abandon Connacht- but let's be honest if the only option you have for a player is 'to Hell or to Connacht', then some of them are going to opt for Hell (AP clubs with no care for Irelan's needs). We need the London Irish option there to give the choice.

And let' not forget the other benefits financial and schadenfreude to having some skin in the PLR game. imgine that oaf Stepehen Jones' impotent philipics on the perfidious Irish on that!!!

[artaneboy]

Which is my point...squad players.

LI wouldn't want Darren Hudson for a year to improve their play off prospects.

There's also the issue that the players themselves may not want to go. Not just that they may not want to go but they would probably want to go somewhere where they were guaranteed first team rugby, otherwise why bother leaving?

Hence why JOC and Hudson have gone to Bristol.

So even if you can come up with a group of players each summer who could hypothetically improve LI's team and who you think the exercise would be useful for, there's every chance that they won't be interested in going.

You've just shifted your agrument there now. Now it's not that we havent got the players- it's that they won't want to go.

You nor I don't- and cannot know that until they are asked. What we do know is that players do go places we wouldn't expect them to want to go to. LI may well be prepared to have Hudson- or last season JJ Hanrahan for a year (or maybe two) to improve their prospects.

I get you don't like the concept- but it's neither impracticable nor unsustainable. The evidence is that there are enough players in the system and that enough of them will move on anyway if they don't get quality game time. if they are going now- they certainly will when we enter a period of transition. We were lucky to get Leo and Jenno back in 2008. We cannot rely on that all the time...

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Haven't shifted my argument at all, I've just added another reason why it can't possibly work.

I'm saying that there's a very very small group of players who could hypothetically be considered for this proposal but that of that group, it would become even smaller when some of them aren't interested in moving.

You can't even come up with the pool of players who would be available. I'm not asking you to predict who will be a success or not, just who would likely be in the pool. In which case you would be going to London Irish with this proposal and then having no players to offer them if they agreed to it.

There's also the fact that academy places are often given to players in areas where we are light/going to be light in future, not just talent. They're needed.

Your point about Cian Healy and SOB is actually one that backs up my own point. Those two guys were destined for great things so you wouldn't have wanted to loan them out, correct? You would loan out the guys who aren't as talented, guys who are unlikely to have much impact at LI. Guys who haven't played much for Leinster and are therefore unlikely to start for LI....so would be....squad players. Even if you do get a player who is good enough and willing to move, LI have to be lacking in that area too. And you have to do that every single summer.

[artaneboy]

Haven't shifted my argument at all, I've just added another reason why it can't possibly work.

I'm saying that there's a very very small group of players who could hypothetically be considered for this proposal but that of that group, it would become even smaller when some of them aren't interested in moving.

You can't even come up with the pool of players who would be available. I'm not asking you to predict who will be a success or not, just who would likely be in the pool. In which case you would be going to London Irish with this proposal and then having no players to offer them if they agreed to it.

There's also the fact that academy places are often given to players in areas where we are light/going to be light in future, not just talent. They're needed.

Your point about Cian Healy and SOB is actually one that backs up my own point. Those two guys were destined for great things so you wouldn't have wanted to loan them out, correct? You would loan out the guys who aren't as talented, guys who are unlikely to have much impact at LI. Guys who haven't played much for Leinster and are therefore unlikely to start for LI....so would be....squad players. Even if you do get a player who is good enough and willing to move, LI have to be lacking in that area too. And you have to do that every single summer.

Ah now- we are talking a few players a year from all the provinces. I could easily go on the interweb and copy a list of players that would set a few hares running. You know that's true.

To sum up- your response is threefold:
*That such players don't exist- patently not correct. Let's take Hagen as an example- who I think will eventually make it- and who signed for LI last season. We were content to let him go- but I think would prefer an option to bring him back if he improved.
*That LI won't be interested in players surplus to our needs- Hagen again...
*That the players won't be interested- Hagen aga... Nah seriously we know that's not true.

I think the truth is you just don't like the concept of loaning players out- and I could list a host players until Hell (or Connacht) froze over and you'd find something wrong with them. You don't fancy it- that's okay! No offence.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Are you seriously using Jamie Hagan as good example of how this could be beneficial? A guy who has only 8 starts this season for them? A guy who pretty much sums up my argument that sending them squad players would be in no way beneficial for us or them?

I don't know why you won't provide a list of players. If there are that many players available and it's so easy to do then do it. This concept can't get off the ground if you can't.

I'm not against the loan system at all. I think Gilsenan going to Connacht was great (even if injury meant it didn't work out). I can also think of a few young Leinster players who would benefit from playing regularly at a higher level next season. Those players would not be good enough for London Irish yet though and I see no reason why London Irish would allow themselves to be the guinea pigs while we're the ones who benefit.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

And another thing about Hagan that I somehow forgot....he had 3 years at Connacht...how did that work out for Leinster? He came back poorly conditioned and with poor technique.

[artaneboy]

And another thing about Hagan that I somehow forgot....he had 3 years at Connacht...how did that work out for Leinster? He came back poorly conditioned and with poor technique.

So Hagen comes back badly conditioned from Connacht... and THAT's the slam dunk argument against the LI partnership scheme? Really? Is it not possible that LI might do it better?

[artaneboy]

Are you seriously using Jamie Hagan as good example of how this could be beneficial? A guy who has only 8 starts this season for them? A guy who pretty much sums up my argument that sending them squad players would be in no way beneficial for us or them?

I don't know why you won't provide a list of players. If there are that many players available and it's so easy to do then do it. This concept can't get off the ground if you can't.

I'm not against the loan system at all. I think Gilsenan going to Connacht was great (even if injury meant it didn't work out). I can also think of a few young Leinster players who would benefit from playing regularly at a higher level next season. Those players would not be good enough for London Irish yet though and I see no reason why London Irish would allow themselves to be the guinea pigs while we're the ones who benefit.

Hagen is the perfect example- as if he was with LI he'd at least have been fit. He's the type of high potential- low yield player we need to optimise. By the way- a reminder... he's a prop- they mature a bit later. Or do you think he's finished now because he cannot shift old Sore Toe?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

And another thing about Hagan that I somehow forgot....he had 3 years at Connacht...how did that work out for Leinster? He came back poorly conditioned and with poor technique.

So Hagen comes back badly conditioned from Connacht... and THAT's the slam dunk argument against the LI partnership scheme? Really? Is it not possible that LI might do it better?

Hardly the slam dunk argument, it's just one of my arguments against this idea.

How's that list of players coming along?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Are you seriously using Jamie Hagan as good example of how this could be beneficial? A guy who has only 8 starts this season for them? A guy who pretty much sums up my argument that sending them squad players would be in no way beneficial for us or them?

I don't know why you won't provide a list of players. If there are that many players available and it's so easy to do then do it. This concept can't get off the ground if you can't.

I'm not against the loan system at all. I think Gilsenan going to Connacht was great (even if injury meant it didn't work out). I can also think of a few young Leinster players who would benefit from playing regularly at a higher level next season. Those players would not be good enough for London Irish yet though and I see no reason why London Irish would allow themselves to be the guinea pigs while we're the ones who benefit.

Hagen is the perfect example- as if he was with LI he'd at least have been fit. He's the type of high potential- low yield player we need to optimise. By the way- a reminder... he's a prop- they mature a bit later. Or do you think he's finished now because he cannot shift old Sore Toe?

Old sore toe has already left LI. Might be an idea to know who's in the LI squad before you think about sending our players there.

I don't think he's finished at all. Just don't think that's an example of a player who shows the system would work given that he doesn't appear to be good enough to start for them and we'd have no interest in taking him back this summer had it been a loan deal that he'd gone on.

[artaneboy]

Are you seriously using Jamie Hagan as good example of how this could be beneficial? A guy who has only 8 starts this season for them? A guy who pretty much sums up my argument that sending them squad players would be in no way beneficial for us or them?

I don't know why you won't provide a list of players. If there are that many players available and it's so easy to do then do it. This concept can't get off the ground if you can't.

I'm not against the loan system at all. I think Gilsenan going to Connacht was great (even if injury meant it didn't work out). I can also think of a few young Leinster players who would benefit from playing regularly at a higher level next season. Those players would not be good enough for London Irish yet though and I see no reason why London Irish would allow themselves to be the guinea pigs while we're the ones who benefit.

Hagen is the perfect example- as if he was with LI he'd at least have been fit. He's the type of high potential- low yield player we need to optimise. By the way- a reminder... he's a prop- they mature a bit later. Or do you think he's finished now because he cannot shift old Sore Toe?

Old sore toe has already left LI. Might be an idea to know who's in the LI squad before you think about sending our players there.

I don't think he's finished at all. Just don't think that's an example of a player who shows the system would work given that he doesn't appear to be good enough to start for them and we'd have no interest in taking him back this summer had it been a loan deal that he'd gone on.

Please- leave the petty snippiness out. I'm not a stato of even Leinster's squad and I certainly have no ambition to be one of the playing roster of another club. Who the playing squads currently are, is not important. What is important is what the general configuration of both our and their squads are likely to be. The provinces as a whole have players of certain- if uneven quality- Morris, Hagen, Hudson, who may not get enough game time to satisfy and develop them. LI has a need of such players in its squad. Leinster and LI don't compete directly in a league- or even generally in the HC. Therefore a partnership makes sense- if terms can be agreed.

Your dismissal of Hagen there just proved my point on 'listing' players - in that it never proves or disproves a concept. Hagen played very well in the last 6 months of his contract for us. I don't know what's happened since he made the journey- but he cannot be dismissed- and the value of the loan partnership concept certainly cannot- just because he has a slump in form. Remember Mike Ross spent years as an also ran at Munster before making the grade in Blighty and returning to us.

Would you reject similarly Copeland (if I recall- you weren't a fan of his being re-signed) as not being up to snuff? Or if Morris had gone to LI rather than Leicester- would the prospect of him facilitaing his return as a more experienced and rounded player- not appeal? There's several candidates across the provinces each year who would benefit from a temporary move- and aside from the financial benefits- off-setting wages- while keeping them in the system, etc. and the potential dividend to owning LI- there's the benefits to the overall player development pipeline and widening the playing base make it a more than coherent argument.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Apologies for the snide remark. There was merit in it though, you really can't contemplate this as being a runner if you can't list the players who would be available or aren't aware of the strength of their squad. It'd be like a bank promising to loan money without checking if they actually have any cash, just assuming its there because it was in the past.

I'm not asking you to predict who will be a success or not, all I've asked for is a list of guys who are finishing up in the academy this summer or have done so in the last couple of summers. Those guys will have the kind of age profile that's relevant to this idea. From that list you can whittle it down to the guys who aren't important to their province and find guys who are struggling for games but might have a future if they get them. It's not rocket science. So far you haven't come up with one player who could make the move to LI if the deal was struck for this summer, how can you not see that that is an issue? You say they're there so I really can't fathom why you refuse to name one.

Hagan is a bad example because, assuming a loan deal would be one or two years at most, he has done nothing in his one year so far to suggest that he has improved and we could use him if he came back. So why would you assume it'll work for anyone else? Similarly, Copeland wasn't ready for the top league straight away. He needed to go to Plymouth and then Rotherham before getting the move to Cardiff. Sheriff is another player you mentioned and he wasn't ready for Premiership rugby in his first season either. This is his third season away now and he won't be anywhere near the Sarries squad on Saturday, do you think a loan deal for LI would have done him much good? If I remember correctly, Artemiev started off in the championship and wasn't good enough for Northampton in the AP, now he's back in Russia. Morris is a good player who would have benefitted from this kind of move, I'd happily take him back. O'Connell and Hudson might have been too.

I'm not against loan deals, I just don't think we have the players (and again, prove me wrong by producing the list I've asked for) for this kind of arrangement. We would probably need two players a year to make it viable and I really don't think the provinces can spare that. We might be able to give them two players, but I think they would be of similar quality to the guys above. I don't understand this obsession with holding onto guys who have left the system. Sometimes they just aren't good enough or there just isn't a place for them. Take Copeland for example, I saw him at schools level and thought he was brilliant. Then heard great things from friends of mine who played with him for Mary's under 20s, saw him play for the firsts and thought he was great then too. There was nothing to suggest that he would become the player he has though, there would have been no loan to LI for him. We can't keep everyone in the net until their careers have ended.

As I said, loan deals are fine, just don't think you can do it in this systematic way. I won't name names given that you won't, but if player X is a second row and finishes in the academy this summer, and we think a loan deal would benefit him then I would hate for him to go to LI just to fill that quota of two, when he may not be good enough to actually get meaningful game time. There could be a French team that suits everyone's requirements better but you're snookered because you're struggling to send LI the two players you've promised them.

On Copeland, I was against bringing him back to Leinster because of the number and quality of our back rowers, nothing against him as a player and think he's a brilliant signing for Munster.

I think I've backed up my stance pretty well so won't be arguing any further.