London Irish- the 5th Green Field?

[artaneboy]

I know this is not a novel suggestion- far from it; but in the wake of the coup initiated by the PRL/ LNR axis on the Heiniken Cup and ERC, should the IRFU take the opportunity of the change in ownership of London Irish make it our '5th province'? The partnership might focus on short-term loans (12 to 18 months) on academy players to LI. That would provide an outlet for young players within the Union's system- without losing them to the provinces- often for good. A longer-term recruitment system could be agreed where that suits all inlvoved. It could involve the IRFU buying a controlling share in LI- if that's allowed under IRB rules. All the better if the RFU dislike it. At least three reasons for this now.
1. All the provinces have well functioning academies now- we cannot hope to use all the talent in four teams and we need an outlet.
2. If the IRFU was a part/ full owner of LI- this is a way to potentially benefit the Union financially from the priveliged terms on offer to the PLR teams. This in turn, would go some way to rebalancing the disproportionate relative benefits that the latter will accrue.
3. We could actually win the AP! That would really pissed the RFU and PLR off.

But seriously- our supposed allies in the other Italo/ Celtic unions (the beleaugered WRFU excepted) are just focused on their own dividends. We need to protect the sport in Ireland- and with the relative dividend that PLR/ LNR clubs will accrue over a few years they will strangle us of money and denude us of players. We have talked about this before- and no one is too convinced by Brian Smyth as an honest broker- but we need to open up a new front/ LI with sympathetic owners are a real opportunity.

[StrangeButBlue]

Can you do a bit of ground work yourself on the topic?
How many Irish qualifies players signed - what about next year - seems to be a few?
What about the Exiles which already recieve funding from the irfu
Do yo think the this is the best use of the IRFU funds, hard to see many other projects (exiles, youth structures, connacht) which should have funds removed so they can sit on the Balance sheet of a PRL club
What arethe RFU rules about clubs competing in the PRL and English eligibility for intl - there is something.
most of the answers are available online and probobly on this site from previous threads.

[artaneboy]

Can you do a bit of ground work yourself on the topic?
How many Irish qualifies players signed - what about next year - seems to be a few?
What about the Exiles which already recieve funding from the irfu
Do yo think the this is the best use of the IRFU funds, hard to see many other projects (exiles, youth structures, connacht) which should have funds removed so they can sit on the Balance sheet of a PRL club
What arethe RFU rules about clubs competing in the PRL and English eligibility for intl - there is something.
most of the answers are available online and probobly on this site from previous threads.

Jaysus- you're giving me homework!!???

Well okay- just a couple of points... I'd see it as a cost neutral option initially and if our LI qualify for the 'brave new world' cup becoming a relatively significant money earner. It's accepted that the English and French clubs will get more from the pot under the new rules. If the IRFU is a significant or full owner of LI, it can gain from this dividend- and deprive the PLR collectively of some income.

Initially we'd simply be agreeing a loan option to LI for emerging or fringe players. What's in it for the players would be a professional contract and a chance to play regularly in a high level league. No offence to the B&I cup- but it's limited in quality and number of games.

LI get a pipeline of good, well coached players- a no brainer for them really. The provincial academies have an excellent reputation and LI will appreciate what this brings.

For the IRFU and provinces? Well LI pay the wage for the year and if the player progresses- the Union or province have a right to take them back.

There could be some conflict if LI and the provinces were to meet regularly in the new competition... but hey, that's the nature of sport and we have that among the provinces anyway.

I'm not going to get into a pile of internet research on the IRB rules- thanks for the suggestion BTW! But if I remember correctly- while there's a need to get permission from your country's union to play in a competition- I heard nothing of a rule saying that one union cannot own shares in a club in another union's country.

[munster#1]

I think the idea of loaning players to other unions is one that is very much under used. Munster have taken advantage of this over the last few seasons.

I do not however believe that buying shares in a club would see much of a return? It would be far better to just enter agreements with a handful of English/french clubs in a couple of divisions, for loaning players.

The agreements could be that the irfu pay a percentage of wages, but the club has to field the player for a certain percentage of games. Imo this would give the irfu more access and input into the players on loan.

First and foremost, Imo a loan system should be looked at between the 4 provinces. The provinces are signing players that are inferior to options that are playing B&I cup.
This would provide a province with a player for a defined period, it would provide the player with access to different coaching and game time, all while developing local players.

Look at dave foley, he could have been loaned to Leinster 2 yes ago, and would be very close to the finish product by now.
He is just one example of a player who had to wait till his mid 20s to get game time.

[artaneboy]

I think the idea of loaning players to other unions is one that is very much under used. Munster have taken advantage of this over the last few seasons.

I do not however believe that buying shares in a club would see much of a return? It would be far better to just enter agreements with a handful of English/french clubs in a couple of divisions, for loaning players.

The agreements could be that the irfu pay a percentage of wages, but the club has to field the player for a certain percentage of games. Imo this would give the irfu more access and input into the players on loan.

First and foremost, Imo a loan system should be looked at between the 4 provinces. The provinces are signing players that are inferior to options that are playing B&I cup.
This would provide a province with a player for a defined period, it would provide the player with access to different coaching and game time, all while developing local players.

Look at dave foley, he could have been loaned to Leinster 2 yes ago, and would be very close to the finish product by now.
He is just one example of a player who had to wait till his mid 20s to get game time.

Well of course we should have- but we don't! The reason being, we are not prepared to strenghten our closest domestic rivals. But LI would only face us all in the new HC- if we all qualified, of course. Might be easier to get that set up than the inter-provincial loan system.

[dropkick]

Lets be realistic. London Irish are an English club, part of the PRL. They're signing a few Paddies now to try and reconnect with the Irish in England. They're also starting to compete with Irish teams for Irish players now.

Even though its population is small, investing in Connacht is the way to go.

[artaneboy]

Lets be realistic. London Irish are an English club, part of the PRL. They're signing a few Paddies now to try and reconnect with the Irish in England. They're also starting to compete with Irish teams for Irish players now.

Even though its population is small, investing in Connacht is the way to go.

I am being serious. LI is now owned by a group od Irish businessmen, withan avowed aim to reconnect with the Irish heritage of the club. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... oulon.html

We can make what might otherwise be destructive competition with LI, into a more cooperative relationship based on a formal agreement. And it's not an either or issue bewteen LI and Connacht- we need an extra outlet if we are to have the required depth of skilled player with the necessary experience.

Look at us with a surfeit of props and backrowers and Munster with second rows. Would we be losing O'Connell to Bristol and the AP (possibly for good) if we had an arrangement with LI to loan him for 12 to 18 months with an option to return? Same has applied in the past to back three players. Now that we are a big light there- we might like to hve an option to be able to recall say an Andrew Conway or Darren Hudson after a year of 'polishing' (I know- I know..) in the AP.

[Morf]

No formal agreement can be in place.

RFU/IRB/PRL in order of ability to put the squeeze on IRFU/provinces wouldn't allow it.

It can't happen and it won't happen.

IRFU are not a big player (comparatively) in world rugby circles so shitting on the doorstep of the powerful and rich neighbour isn't a great idea.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I already said I hated this kind of idea in another thread and nothing above makes me think it's possible or even a good idea.

I think you've missed a fairly major point. You said that its a no brainer that they'd want our players but is it really?

If I was the London Irish coach and I wanted to get into the play off places then I don't think I'd have any Leinster academy players anywhere near the team. Why on earth would you try and develop inexperienced and untested guys who will be heading home in a year or two if they improve sufficiently? We're not talking Rocky Elsom impact here, these are young guys who need games, not ones who will add much value to the cause. If they're not ready to start and just end up being squad members then they could have just stayed here anyway.

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

Think about it from a Leinster point of view, would you take 22 year old no name Leicester second row on a season long loan?

[paddyor]

Who would you move over there from the provinces?

Current;y IQ playing the AP

1. Hagan, Andress(for the moment)
2.
3. Buckley, (Court)
4. Caldwell
5. Sherrif
6.
7. Noone
8.
9. Stringer, TOL
10 Humphreys, Steenson
11. Monahan
12. Sheridan
13. Whitten(?)(Griffin)
14. Whitten(?)
15. Morris

These are the only ones who come to mind and frankly I'd rather not have most of them on the books of the IRFU. Some potentially good players there but if they're that good keep them here. I don't think we've the strength in depth for this yet and maybe never will.

[paddyor]

....

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

.....

This is a really good point. Given how easily we've beat some Championship teams in the B+I cup though would it be much of a step up in standard?

[artaneboy]

I already said I hated this kind of idea in another thread and nothing above makes me think it's possible or even a good idea.

I think you've missed a fairly major point. You said that its a no brainer that they'd want our players but is it really?

If I was the London Irish coach and I wanted to get into the play off places then I don't think I'd have any Leinster academy players anywhere near the team. Why on earth would you try and develop inexperienced and untested guys who will be heading home in a year or two if they improve sufficiently? We're not talking Rocky Elsom impact here, these are young guys who need games, not ones who will add much value to the cause. If they're not ready to start and just end up being squad members then they could have just stayed here anyway.

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

Think about it from a Leinster point of view, would you take 22 year old no name Leicester second row on a season long loan?

No- with respect I think you are missing the point here. LI would certainly be interested in having academy graduates (not ciurrent academy players) in the team. How do I know? Well, we do know that PLR and other teams sign them when they are available; Morris, Artimev, Copeland, come to mind. Players who have come through an excellent academy and have some hardening off in the Rabo. Of course LI would want access to them in a deal that priveliges them over their PLR rivals. The point on the heading home is that it is negotiable- we have the option, but if it suits all involved- the player could negotiate to stay in London. We'd lose a few we'd want to keep- but get back a few we might have lost otherwise too. The players get contracts and experience and the IRFU and LI get ring-fenced access to quality players. And in answer to your question- of course i wouldn't take a 'no name' 22 year old second row; but I would take a a 'named' player of quality on the same basis. Wh=y would we not- we bloody well sign some duds on longer contracts as it is!

We have a problem with 'stacking' players in certain position across the provinces- we either are pro-active and try to mange it to the best of our ability- or we let them bleed away with any real hop[e of getting them back. That's okay if you have a palying pool the size of the big countries- but we don't have that luxury.

[artaneboy]

Who would you move over there from the provinces?

Current;y IQ playing the AP

1. Hagan, Andress(for the moment)
2.
3. Buckley, (Court)
4. Caldwell
5. Sherrif
6.
7. Noone
8.
9. Stringer, TOL
10 Humphreys, Steenson
11. Monahan
12. Sheridan
13. Whitten(?)(Griffin)
14. Whitten(?)
15. Morris

These are the only ones who come to mind and frankly I'd rather not have most of them on the books of the IRFU. Some potentially good players there but if they're that good keep them here. I don't think we've the strength in depth for this yet and maybe never will.

It's precisely because we don't have the strength in depth, that we need to do it. Several of those players (Sherrif, Caldwell, Whitten, Morris for a few) may well come back- or will have long and quality careers- with their skills lost to Ireland and the provinces. My proposal keeps them in the system- of sorts and is relatively cost neutral.

We lost Bob casey to LI a decade ago- and while he may not have wanted to return, it would have been good for us all (Bob, Leinster, Ireland- and maybe even LI) if this was an option. With the new HC competition funding, we need to play cleverly off the field too to keep ahead of the funding juggernaut that the PLR/ LNR clubs will be driving. Doing nothing is not good enough.

[artaneboy]

No formal agreement can be in place.

RFU/IRB/PRL in order of ability to put the squeeze on IRFU/provinces wouldn't allow it.

It can't happen and it won't happen.

IRFU are not a big player (comparatively) in world rugby circles so shitting on the doorstep of the powerful and rich neighbour isn't a great idea.

Well it can happen- but it might not... We don't know yet. It's seems possible- well no one has quoted an IRB rule yet.

As to worrying about the doorstep of the 'powerful and rich'...! You're kidding- right? Does what the RFU and FFR not demonstrate what that 'band of brothers' will do to a croppy who lies down? We in the IRFU rightly took up the standard for Union control of our sport- and what did our fellow unions do??? Too late for niceties now- we need to sharpen our elbows...

[artaneboy]

....

A championship team might be open to it but not a premiership team.

.....

This is a really good point. Given how easily we've beat some Championship teams in the B+I cup though would it be much of a step up in standard?

No- it's not really a good pooint. It negates two of the advantages- we won't make money from Championship teams in the 'new HC' and most our post-academy (from all provinces mind...) players are capable of playing well above Championship level.

If we do a deal- it should be with a AP club. Of course LI could always get relegated... Well- its possible even from the AP!

[All Blacks nil]

Saracens announce link up with Connacht.

Saracens have announced the launch of a new relationship with Irish club Connacht where Academy and recent academy graduatess will be loaned to Connacht. This will prove beneficial to both clubs as the Academy players will play regular first team rugby at a reasonable standard and Connacht's playing resources will benefit from their introduction .

Really there is enough said on this matter.
The definition of pie in the sky

[All Blacks nil]

Who would you move over there from the provinces?

Current;y IQ playing the AP

1. Hagan, Andress(for the moment)
2.
3. Buckley, (Court)
4. Caldwell
5. Sherrif
6.
7. Noone
8.
9. Stringer, TOL
10 Humphreys, Steenson
11. Monahan
12. Sheridan
13. Whitten(?)(Griffin)
14. Whitten(?)
15. Morris

These are the only ones who come to mind and frankly I'd rather not have most of them on the books of the IRFU. Some potentially good players there but if they're that good keep them here. I don't think we've the strength in depth for this yet and maybe never will.

It's precisely because we don't have the strength in depth, that we need to do it. Several of those players (Sherrif, Caldwell, Whitten, Morris for a few) may well come back- or will have long and quality careers- with their skills lost to Ireland and the provinces. My proposal keeps them in the system- of sorts and is relatively cost neutral.

We lost Bob casey to LI a decade ago- and while he may not have wanted to return, it would have been good for us all (Bob, Leinster, Ireland- and maybe even LI) if this was an option. With the new HC competition funding, we need to play cleverly off the field too to keep ahead of the funding juggernaut that the PLR/ LNR clubs will be driving. Doing nothing is not good enough.

With all due respect would the bones of a team as listed above survive in the Premiership.

[artaneboy]

Who would you move over there from the provinces?

Current;y IQ playing the AP

1. Hagan, Andress(for the moment)
2.
3. Buckley, (Court)
4. Caldwell
5. Sherrif
6.
7. Noone
8.
9. Stringer, TOL
10 Humphreys, Steenson
11. Monahan
12. Sheridan
13. Whitten(?)(Griffin)
14. Whitten(?)
15. Morris

These are the only ones who come to mind and frankly I'd rather not have most of them on the books of the IRFU. Some potentially good players there but if they're that good keep them here. I don't think we've the strength in depth for this yet and maybe never will.

It's precisely because we don't have the strength in depth, that we need to do it. Several of those players (Sherrif, Caldwell, Whitten, Morris for a few) may well come back- or will have long and quality careers- with their skills lost to Ireland and the provinces. My proposal keeps them in the system- of sorts and is relatively cost neutral.

We lost Bob casey to LI a decade ago- and while he may not have wanted to return, it would have been good for us all (Bob, Leinster, Ireland- and maybe even LI) if this was an option. With the new HC competition funding, we need to play cleverly off the field too to keep ahead of the funding juggernaut that the PLR/ LNR clubs will be driving. Doing nothing is not good enough.

With all due respect would the bones of a team as listed above survive in the Premiership.

That's an irrelevant question; no one is expecting it to play as a team. I will say this- I've seen all the above play and their collective standard is in no way below the average for the AP. So- yes, they would look very much in place in a Premiership team.

[artaneboy]

Saracens announce link up with Connacht.

Saracens have announced the launch of a new relationship with Irish club Connacht where Academy and recent academy graduatess will be loaned to Connacht. This will prove beneficial to both clubs as the Academy players will play regular first team rugby at a reasonable standard and Connacht's playing resources will benefit from their introduction .

Really there is enough said on this matter.
The definition of pie in the sky

Saracen's have a long-standing relationship with a Connacht do they? and the IRFU-owned structure of the province would allow such a relationship? No on both counts. Otherwise a good post.

[Oldschool]

As regards player transfers perhaps we need a more formal approach a la a modified American Football.
Any players that a province decides is surplus to requirements gets placed on the draft, ditto a player can opt to be placed on the draft. Then each province gets to pick in rotation any player they might be interested in.
Perhaps (know this could be iffy) IQ players abroad could also be added to the draft if they elected to do so.
Loads of problems I'm sure but something is needed to free up the market.