Club super league in Ireland

[MadiganSquareGarden]

I remember hearing Bernard Jackman suggest this on Against The Head (I think) a couple of years back. I've often thought about it since.

Would it not make huge sense to create a strong tier below the provincial game in this country that feeds directly into the provinces? If there were two clubs attached to each province with all players in senior, academy and sub-academy squads assigned to either one of them as well as the cream of the club game playing across these eight teams instead of spread throughout many more clubs than that, there is a very good chance it would offer players a chance to develop at a standard which currently doesn't exist in this country below Pro 12 level.

So in theory each province would have two sides which would feed the provincial A team and the senior side above that, playing a 14 game regular season with maybe semi-finals and a final also.

I could really see it capturing the public's imagination and it could only bring greater benefit to the provinces and indeed the national team in the long run.

[IanD]

I have been told that the All Ireland league itself is the problem. People dont want to travel large distances for AIL but were happy enough to travel when the leagues where province based. It also lost out on some local rivalries/derbies.

So I think the Club super league would work for the players but I am not sure the public would buy into it. If you go to Leinster and a local club match by adding this you now have 3 games a week to watch.

[StrangeButBlue]

AIL Div 1A
For Example UCD play a lot of the Academy players. There has been more of a move away from leaving the academy players with these teams and to focus more on the B&I cup and A games. Every player is associated with a club and gets released down, not as much as 5/6 years ago but still.
Each club has a different opinion on it as the A games clash (unnecessarily) with some of the Div1a fixtures so you can't rely on getting the same team out each week.
I think the Div1A matches are a strong enough standard - you can see some highlights on the IRFU site (check out UCD vs Lansdowne from this year for a glimpse of the standard of back play)
I think it makes a big difference whether your Academy players are in Div1a teams or not especially for props to get experience. Clontarf are providing Leinster with a production line of props the last few years, for example. Old Belvedere have been a source for no 8's.
If Garryowen get relegated this year and with Shannon also in Div1b there is only Young Munster in Limerick, it will be interesting to see what Munster do if anything.
If you go back a few years you will see front line players tog out, Paul O'Connell played a game for Young Munster last year while recovering. Eddie O'Sullivan has been offering coaching tips to garryowen, Shaun Berne is curently helping out in Old Belvedere etc. Joe Schmidt was at the st Mary's game 2 weeks ago but don't think he was scouting - maybe?
There is a vibrant strong tier right below which feeds directly into the provinces and has captured a lot of peopls imaginations already, Jackman himself cut his coaching teeth in Clontaf (didn't he?)

[R-Dog]

Great in theory, but would destroy the club game that exists even more than it has already.

Between a games and the ail there is enough reasonable quality game time for up and coming players. Just look at the likes of Darragh fanning playing ail the last few years and has preformed well when he stepped up a level this season. Not to mention the likes of Moore and McGrath have been honing their skills there over the last few seasons

[ormond lad]

I remember hearing Bernard Jackman suggest this on Against The Head (I think) a couple of years back. I've often thought about it since.

Would it not make huge sense to create a strong tier below the provincial game in this country that feeds directly into the provinces? If there were two clubs attached to each province with all players in senior, academy and sub-academy squads assigned to either one of them as well as the cream of the club game playing across these eight teams instead of spread throughout many more clubs than that, there is a very good chance it would offer players a chance to develop at a standard which currently doesn't exist in this country below Pro 12 level.

So in theory each province would have two sides which would feed the provincial A team and the senior side above that, playing a 14 game regular season with maybe semi-finals and a final also.

I could really see it capturing the public's imagination and it could only bring greater benefit to the provinces and indeed the national team in the long run.

No thanks.
If you want a strong tier below the provincial game(pro12+ euro cup) invest in more games etc for the provincial A sides. Get them more games. Look to play French pro2 sides as well as b&i cup.
I would hate to see so many contracted players all in just a few small clubs. How would you decide what clubs players would play for?
The club(AIL) game is struggling in many ways and this would make things worse again for many clubs. Why create a problem needlessly?
It may benefit the provinces and national side but would weaken the club game which is certainly not what is needed

I have been told that the All Ireland league itself is the problem. People dont want to travel large distances for AIL but were happy enough to travel when the leagues where province based. It also lost out on some local rivalries/derbies.

So I think the Club super league would work for the players but I am not sure the public would buy into it. If you go to Leinster and a local club match by adding this you now have 3 games a week to watch.

People don't want to travel large distances too much but don't mind 2-4 a season if theyre spread through the season. What do define as large distance btw.
How many supporters go to both their province and a club game every weekend?

[ormond lad]

AIL Div 1A
For Example UCD play a lot of the Academy players. There has been more of a move away from leaving the academy players with these teams and to focus more on the B&I cup and A games. Every player is associated with a club and gets released down, not as much as 5/6 years ago but still.
Each club has a different opinion on it as the A games clash (unnecessarily) with some of the Div1a fixtures so you can't rely on getting the same team out each week.
I think the Div1A matches are a strong enough standard - you can see some highlights on the IRFU site (check out UCD vs Lansdowne from this year for a glimpse of the standard of back play)
I think it makes a big difference whether your Academy players are in Div1a teams or not especially for props to get experience. Clontarf are providing Leinster with a production line of props the last few years, for example. Old Belvedere have been a source for no 8's.
If Garryowen get relegated this year and with Shannon also in Div1b there is only Young Munster in Limerick, it will be interesting to see what Munster do if anything.
If you go back a few years you will see front line players tog out, Paul O'Connell played a game for Young Munster last year while recovering. Eddie O'Sullivan has been offering coaching tips to garryowen, Shaun Berne is curently helping out in Old Belvedere etc. Joe Schmidt was at the st Mary's game 2 weeks ago but don't think he was scouting - maybe?
There is a vibrant strong tier right below which feeds directly into the provinces and has captured a lot of peopls imaginations already, Jackman himself cut his coaching teeth in Clontaf (didn't he?)

But why not use resources that currently exist better. For example why not instead of the likes of UCD/Lansdowne in division 1A taking so many good players at 18/19 and have them only playing u20s why not get some of those players who would just be playing under 20s to go and play for clubs like Bective/Old Wesley and instead of playing under 20s have those players playing AIL. So instead of playing u20 AIL Div1 with Lansdowne/UCD they play Adult AIL division 2. A higher standard of games.
There is quite a few props from the various schools/clubs joining Clontarf at 18/19 and they are progressing well
Munster wont do much with just the Cookies in 1A.
A significant proportion of future home-grown pro coaches will begin their coaching career or spend some time in their coaching career in the AIL.

[leinster4life13]

But why not use resources that currently exist better. For example why not instead of the likes of UCD/Lansdowne in division 1A taking so many good players at 18/19 and have them only playing u20s why not get some of those players who would just be playing under 20s to go and play for clubs like Bective/Old Wesley and instead of playing under 20s have those players playing AIL. So instead of playing u20 AIL Div1 with Lansdowne/UCD they play Adult AIL division 2. A higher standard of games.
There is quite a few props from the various schools/clubs joining Clontarf at 18/19 and they are progressing well
Munster wont do much with just the Cookies in 1A.
A significant proportion of future home-grown pro coaches will begin their coaching career or spend some time in their coaching career in the AIL.

This, too many good players being hoarded by the big clubs/universities or just drop off, better spread and utilisation of talent would be a massive benefit. I also think Leinster should subsidise S&C coaches for all Leinster clubs(on a rotating basis) so that the general fitness and strength levels rise further bridging the gap between B&I/pro 12 and the AIL

[AwayTheWell]

AIL Div 1A
There is quite a few props from the various schools/clubs joining Clontarf at 18/19 and they are progressing well
Munster wont do much with just the Cookies in 1A.

I know Munster are centralising their professional team to Limerick from next season, but didn't hear that Cork was totally being annexed from Munster. Dolphin and Cork Constitution should be also be representing Munster in Division 1A next season.
Indeed it could be Ulster who have no top flight representative. Ballynahinch have gone on a great run of late but still look favorites to be involved in the promotion/relegation play-off where they would have home advantage against one of two Connacht sides; Buccaneers or Corinthians.

[ormond lad]

AIL Div 1A
There is quite a few props from the various schools/clubs joining Clontarf at 18/19 and they are progressing well
Munster wont do much with just the Cookies in 1A.

I know Munster are centralising their professional team to Limerick from next season, but didn't hear that Cork was totally being annexed from Munster. Dolphin and Cork Constitution should be also be representing Munster in Division 1A next season.
Indeed it could be Ulster who have no top flight representative. Ballynahinch have gone on a great run of late but still look favorites to be involved in the promotion/relegation play-off where they would have home advantage against one of two Connacht sides; Buccaneers or Corinthians.

Ooops.
Meant Limerick based pro players..
Not great for Ulster but they've always had players in bigger spread than other provinces including division 2 clubs. Year Queens beat us in AIL3 final they had a pro or two involved iirc

[AwayTheWell]

No bother Ormond. Congrats on your own promotion this year by the way. Well deserved indeed by all accounts.
Believe next season should be the first year since the AIL started that there is a higher number of Cork teams (not my own unfortunately) in the top flight compared to Limerick. Great work going on in Tipperary too - between yourselves and Cashel (and a vibrant Junior rugby community as well).
Anyway, with strong links to the club game - I wouldn't be a major fan of this proposal. Agree with your sentiments Ormond Lad about the top clubs hoovering up the young talent to stack up their 2nds/U20s when they could be playing Senior rugby at Division 2 level.

[ormond lad]

No bother Ormond. Congrats on your own promotion this year by the way. Well deserved indeed by all accounts.
Believe next season should be the first year since the AIL started that there is a higher number of Cork teams (not my own unfortunately) in the top flight compared to Limerick. Great work going on in Tipperary too - between yourselves and Cashel (and a vibrant Junior rugby community as well).
Anyway, with strong links to the club game - I wouldn't be a major fan of this proposal. Agree with your sentiments Ormond Lad about the top clubs hoovering up the young talent to stack up their 2nds/U20s when they could be playing Senior rugby at Division 2 level.

thanks.
More than deserved. We just need to really build on thing now. We'd a strongish u20s side this year and need to look to those and poss get a j2 team for next season.
Will be strange seeing so few from Limerick in the top flight considering how much Limerick sides have dominated over the years.
Junior rugby in Tipp going ok. not as strong as it was in period 1997-2004 but is doing ok but 2 Tipperary sides in 2A next year will be great. Have to get back level with Cashel..