French Top14

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I don't think Leinster are that far off Toulon in terms of personnel. Get Sexton back and a decent 13 and we'd be well able for them.

That's only us though. Looking at the rest of the pro12 teams, particularly Munster and Ulster. They're two of the best teams in the league, both reached the knock out stages of the HC this year, and yet the signings they're making are light years away from the kind of players Toulon are signing so are unlikely to catch up with them anytime soon.

All the provinces have some brilliant players coming through but you're only as good as your weakest link and that becomes apparent in the biggest games. I think if we got back to the days where each province had 3/4 big name NIQs then we'd be fine. I think that model is achievable over the next few years but it will still be a struggle financially (that's before you even begin the struggle of getting the union on board with more leeway being granted for NIQs), and if it's going to be tough for the Irish teams, then just imagine how difficult it will be for the Welsh, Scots, and Italians?

The more I think about it, the more I think that private investment is a good idea. That won't be enough for us/the league though, something has to be done about the bleeding of players from Wales and Scotland. At the moment our biggest hope seems to be that the Welsh guys get homesick.

[simonokeeffe]

I don't think Leinster are that far off Toulon in terms of personnel. Get Sexton back and a decent 13 and we'd be well able for them.

That's only us though. Looking at the rest of the pro12 teams, particularly Munster and Ulster. They're two of the best teams in the league, both reached the knock out stages of the HC this year, and yet the signings they're making are light years away from the kind of players Toulon are signing so are unlikely to catch up with them anytime soon.

All the provinces have some brilliant players coming through but you're only as good as your weakest link and that becomes apparent in the biggest games. I think if we got back to the days where each province had 3/4 big name NIQs then we'd be fine. I think that model is achievable over the next few years but it will still be a struggle financially (that's before you even begin the struggle of getting the union on board with more leeway being granted for NIQs), and if it's going to be tough for the Irish teams, then just imagine how difficult it will be for the Welsh, Scots, and Italians?

The more I think about it, the more I think that private investment is a good idea. That won't be enough for us/the league though, something has to be done about the bleeding of players from Wales and Scotland. At the moment our biggest hope seems to be that the Welsh guys get homesick.

At the moment our biggest hope seems to be that the Welsh guys get DEPORTED

[jezzer]

Oh... Poors little parisians who see the danger of the ugly vilains Toulonnais money bags...
You're still regretting Guazzini, aren't you ?
Also... I'm looking for that Stade Français youngsters geniuses coming from that great academy which is your, on your starting team, but I might need a bigger microscope...

Don't think anyone is purely picking on Toulon in that respect. Stade were the architects of this model. They just weren't that good on the pitch. The Top 14 is full of teams who have bought in a lot of overseas talent. Toulon have just been the most conspicuous because i) They spent the most money ii) the owner brings the attention on himself and iii) they're winning games and trophies.

[johng]

However, you talked about 5 key players for us -

I think what Dave meant about 5 players for us (And he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that we can only sign 5 foreign players. So only need the money for 5. Toulon can sign.....? Lots it seems.

Where the argument falls down though is that the bigger French wages get, the more we need to pay the Heaslips, O'Briens, Sextons of this world to stay.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Oh... Poors little parisians who see the danger of the ugly vilains Toulonnais money bags...
You're still regretting Guazzini, aren't you ?
Also... I'm looking for that Stade Français youngsters geniuses coming from that great academy which is your, on your starting team, but I might need a bigger microscope...

Don't think anyone is purely picking on Toulon in that respect. Stade were the architects of this model. They just weren't that good on the pitch. The Top 14 is full of teams who have bought in a lot of overseas talent. Toulon have just been the most conspicuous because i) They spent the most money ii) the owner brings the attention on himself and iii) they're winning games and trophies.

It reminds me of tax avoidance. If they're the rules and you take advantage of them then, as far I'm concerned, good luck to you. It's then up to the relevant authorities to close that loophole for the greater good of the economy though.

[leinster4life13]

Oh... Poors little parisians who see the danger of the ugly vilains Toulonnais money bags...
You're still regretting Guazzini, aren't you ?
Also... I'm looking for that Stade Français youngsters geniuses coming from that great academy which is your, on your starting team, but I might need a bigger microscope...

Don't think anyone is purely picking on Toulon in that respect. Stade were the architects of this model. They just weren't that good on the pitch. The Top 14 is full of teams who have bought in a lot of overseas talent. Toulon have just been the most conspicuous because i) They spent the most money ii) the owner brings the attention on himself and iii) they're winning games and trophies.

It reminds me of tax avoidance. If they're the rules and you take advantage of them then, as far I'm concerned, good luck to you. It's then up to the relevant authorities to close that loophole for the greater good of the economy though.

thats a bit rich considering we have a tax rebate to entice players to stay.

[offshorerules]

I think you missed his point.

[leinster4life13]

I think you missed his point.

Was his point not, that for the greater good of the game, a salary/living within your means cap should be imposed? In that case is our tax situation to be scrapped. As far as i'm concerned they can do what they like, its irrelevant, its up to us to be innovative, team up with the best S&C coaches in the states, universities over there and at home, try catch more players in the net(not the current schools rugby or bust mentality we currently have), increase private funding, bring the AIL up to standard, that is what we can do, bitching and moaning or wanting them to change for "fairness", "the good of the game", "equality" or some other bullshit is a joke. I mean look at how many partners and advertisers French teams have and how they utilise that space on their jerseys, Leinster have a way to go.
I mean look at this weight room from a US college, we should aspire to that, forget about wanting to drag the game down because we are suddenly impoverished.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fquDTF09bk[/youtube]

[Flash Gordon]

However, you talked about 5 key players for us -

I think what Dave meant about 5 players for us (And he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that we can only sign 5 foreign players. So only need the money for 5. Toulon can sign.....? Lots it seems.

Where the argument falls down though is that the bigger French wages get, the more we need to pay the Heaslips, O'Briens, Sextons of this world to stay.

I didn't pick it up that way, maybe you're right! That being said, if you combined our academy output with 5 world class players I think we'd be close to competitive - not 3 or 4 journeymen. That being said, I'd prefer our academy system went up against French clubs with reasonable budgets. But when you're getting to €30million+ it just doesn't stack up.

You're right on the wages. We are paying our stars the wages we are because we know that if we don't the go to the likes of Racing Metro.

[Flash Gordon]

Oh... Poors little parisians who see the danger of the ugly vilains Toulonnais money bags...
You're still regretting Guazzini, aren't you ?
Also... I'm looking for that Stade Français youngsters geniuses coming from that great academy which is your, on your starting team, but I might need a bigger microscope...

Don't think anyone is purely picking on Toulon in that respect. Stade were the architects of this model. They just weren't that good on the pitch. The Top 14 is full of teams who have bought in a lot of overseas talent. Toulon have just been the most conspicuous because i) They spent the most money ii) the owner brings the attention on himself and iii) they're winning games and trophies.

In fairness they have bought well and the coach has done a decent job. When you sign guys like Stef Armitage, Juan Smith and Bakkies Botha you know that commitment isn't going to be an issue.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think you missed his point.

Was his point not, that for the greater good of the game, a salary/living within your means cap should be imposed? In that case is our tax situation to be scrapped. As far as i'm concerned they can do what they like, its irrelevant, its up to us to be innovative, team up with the best S&C coaches in the states, universities over there and at home, try catch more players in the net(not the current schools rugby or bust mentality we currently have), increase private funding, bring the AIL up to standard, that is what we can do, bitching and moaning or wanting them to change for "fairness", "the good of the game", "equality" or some other bullshit is a joke. I mean look at how many partners and advertisers French teams have and how they utilise that space on their jerseys, Leinster have a way to go.
I mean look at this weight room from a US college, we should aspire to that, forget about wanting to drag the game down because we are suddenly impoverished.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fquDTF09bk[/youtube]

In a roundabout way you've got back to what I was talking about but no you totally misunderstood my point.

[offshorerules]

I think you missed his point.

Was his point not, that for the greater good of the game, a salary/living within your means cap should be imposed? In that case is our tax situation to be scrapped. As far as i'm concerned they can do what they like, its irrelevant, its up to us to be innovative, team up with the best S&C coaches in the states, universities over there and at home, try catch more players in the net(not the current schools rugby or bust mentality we currently have), increase private funding, bring the AIL up to standard, that is what we can do, bitching and moaning or wanting them to change for "fairness", "the good of the game", "equality" or some other bullshit is a joke. I mean look at how many partners and advertisers French teams have and how they utilise that space on their jerseys, Leinster have a way to go.
I mean look at this weight room from a US college, we should aspire to that, forget about wanting to drag the game down because we are suddenly impoverished.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fquDTF09bk[/youtube]

I read it as ..'them's the rules'.

[ronk]

It's normal for companies to lose money while growing through high growth phases. Rugby is (or was until PRL changed strategy) growing fast in the NH. It's no biggie.

Leinster can be competitive without spending like Toulon, we're a rich club anyway. We can still win Heineken Cups, we just need a few ducks in a row.

[Toulon fan]

Don't think anyone is purely picking on Toulon in that respect. Stade were the architects of this model. They just weren't that good on the pitch. The Top 14 is full of teams who have bought in a lot of overseas talent. Toulon have just been the most conspicuous because i) They spent the most money ii) the owner brings the attention on himself and iii) they're winning games and trophies.

Absolutely. So money is not always buying titles. Qualities does. QED.

[johng]

I mean look at this weight room from a US college, we should aspire to that, forget about wanting to drag the game down because we are suddenly impoverished.

fixed youtube link

[Openside]

Oh... Poors little parisians who see the danger of the ugly vilains Toulonnais money bags...
You're still regretting Guazzini, aren't you ?
Also... I'm looking for that Stade Français youngsters geniuses coming from that great academy which is your, on your starting team, but I might need a bigger microscope...

I wasn't making any reference to Toulon! Seeing as you brought it up, and as far as I know, Slimini, Plisson, Danty, Flanquart, Rabadan, Bonneval and Chabert have come through the centre de formation in Paris. Bonneval is a lifer...

[ronk]

Don't think anyone is purely picking on Toulon in that respect. Stade were the architects of this model. They just weren't that good on the pitch. The Top 14 is full of teams who have bought in a lot of overseas talent. Toulon have just been the most conspicuous because i) They spent the most money ii) the owner brings the attention on himself and iii) they're winning games and trophies.

Absolutely. So money is not always buying titles. Qualities does. QED.

It's always a combination of resources, quality, strategy, endeavour, luck etc.

[Keith]

It's normal for companies to lose money while growing through high growth phases. Rugby is (or was until PRL changed strategy) growing fast in the NH. It's no biggie.

Leinster can be competitive without spending like Toulon, we're a rich club anyway. We can still win Heineken Cups, we just need a few ducks in a row.

Yes for now we can be competitive, its not now that is the problem. Its 5-10 years down the line when the average wage has gone way up from what it is now.

Will we still be able to hold onto our players and be competitive then? Our current model will not be sustainable then.

[leinster4life13]

It's normal for companies to lose money while growing through high growth phases. Rugby is (or was until PRL changed strategy) growing fast in the NH. It's no biggie.

Leinster can be competitive without spending like Toulon, we're a rich club anyway. We can still win Heineken Cups, we just need a few ducks in a row.

Yes for now we can be competitive, its not now that is the problem. Its 5-10 years down the line when the average wage has gone way up from what it is now.

Will we still be able to hold onto our players and be competitive then? Our current model will not be sustainable then.

How do NZ do it? All we have to do is produce more players, the fact we have less money for quality NIQ's actually plays into that, we have the basic structures already in existence, the player numbers etc, we just need to improve all of that and we will be fine. If we dont, you are right, our goose will be cooked.

[Dave Cahill]

How do NZ do it? .

By not having three massively more popular sports in front of rugby for a start