Pro 12 - General Thread

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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby rooster » April 19th, 2017, 9:19 am

kermischocolate wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:
dropkick wrote:The pro12 said a few months back that they intend to expand the league. I wonder has that caused the Scottish Union to change their mind. In other words, if for instance there was a new pro12 second division being created, it would be ideal to have a new Scottish based side enter it. No need for London Scottish


That quote is from 11 months ago. Heard a conversation at the weekend at AIL match that Pro12 are talking with US team on East Coast and with Canadian Union about two new teams to play in Pro12. Also some discussion with Heidelberg in Germany about a team for two Conference new competition for Sept 2018.

This sort of development sounds very interesting when it is noticed that Canada beat USA in World Series Sevens Final in Singapore yesterday - England 3rd, Aus 4th and NZ 5th. Certainly would be a game changer if the N Americans could fieldcompetitive professional teams in a Pro12 Competition.


Singapore seems to be tournament of the underdog. Kenya won it last year.

Interestingly Germany almost qualified for next year's 7s world series which is not a bad effort for a programme that's only been going 4 years. Nothing like the Olympics to add a much needed revenue source into the mix!

Is there not a problem with some guy holding rights to pro rugby in USA though?
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby neill_m » April 19th, 2017, 6:12 pm

Alternative idea of Pro 12 expansion. The Southern Kings and the Cheetahs to join a Pro 14 if kicked out of Super rugby.

Article on planet rugby.


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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby paddyor » April 19th, 2017, 6:45 pm

The Welsh seem to think that the Dragons wont last 2 more seasons so could be a goer.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby FLIP » April 19th, 2017, 6:48 pm

paddyor wrote:The Welsh seem to think that the Dragons wont last 2 more seasons so could be a goer.


Welsh media, Welsh fans, or welsh fans who actually know what they're talking about?
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby Peg Leg » April 19th, 2017, 8:27 pm

When you say Welsh fans, do you mean the Welsh premier league rugby fan, the Welsh national team rugby fan that predominantly follows the English premiership, a Welsh regional team fan that predominantly follows the english premiership but lives in cardiff or a Welsh pro12 fan?
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby paddyor » April 19th, 2017, 8:44 pm

The guys on gwlad who generally do know stuff about the fin state of their teams. Theyre quite a.gloomy bunch at the best of times but do seem to know the ins and outs of the clusterf@ck that is the Dragons and.Its owners incl. Newport RFC. The takeover has been on the cards for some time and the.i.impression is that they went thru the.motions of seeking investors to keep fans happy (union control as a last resort). Theres no plan for Newport RFC afyer the takeover (even as an amateur club). A similar orderly winding down was done with Celtic Warriors.

Apparently the Drags are spending well below the welsh cap and have little capacity to grow revenues. Youd have to think the WRU would much rather consolidate its spending whixh is on the horizon with full central contracting.The new chairman who came from PRW ranks seems to have adopted a lot of positions that previously PRW would have opposed.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby FLIP » April 19th, 2017, 9:21 pm

Ah gwlad. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. Apart from shelbyville maybe.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby paddyor » April 19th, 2017, 9:55 pm

FLIP wrote:Ah gwlad. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. Apart from shelbyville maybe.

Well say what you like about them, but they know their stuff when it comes to owns shares, assets, debt etc and what that means for rheir club. Their experience of pro rugby has been markedly difgerent to ours. Starting with the rebel season, the downsizing of regions and the "civil war". They also have experience of shysters owning clubs unlike us. Its a story of decline. The game below.national level has been "ignored" for a long time, at some point that has to come back to bite.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby kermischocolate » April 19th, 2017, 10:39 pm

rooster wrote:
Is there not a problem with some guy holding rights to pro rugby in USA though?


You've lost me.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby dropkick » April 19th, 2017, 10:46 pm

kermischocolate wrote:
rooster wrote:
Is there not a problem with some guy holding rights to pro rugby in USA though?


You've lost me.


Doug Schoninger who set up PRO rugby in the USA signed an exclusivity deal with the USA union which means no other professional rugby teams can be allowed in the US as long as PRO rugby is running.

That deal looks like it won't last the 3 years because PRO rugby is in financial trouble after only 1 season and Schoninger and the US union have fallen out.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby FLIP » April 19th, 2017, 11:17 pm

paddyor wrote:
FLIP wrote:Ah gwlad. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. Apart from shelbyville maybe.

Well say what you like about them, but they know their stuff when it comes to owns shares, assets, debt etc and what that means for rheir club. Their experience of pro rugby has been markedly difgerent to ours. Starting with the rebel season, the downsizing of regions and the "civil war". They also have experience of shysters owning clubs unlike us. Its a story of decline. The game below.national level has been "ignored" for a long time, at some point that has to come back to bite.


They're part of the brain trust that thinks the end game is playing in the English Premiership.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby kermischocolate » April 19th, 2017, 11:33 pm

dropkick wrote:
kermischocolate wrote:
rooster wrote:
Is there not a problem with some guy holding rights to pro rugby in USA though?


You've lost me.


Doug Schoninger who set up PRO rugby in the USA signed an exclusivity deal with the USA union which means no other professional rugby teams can be allowed in the US as long as PRO rugby is running.

That deal looks like it won't last the 3 years because PRO rugby is in financial trouble after only 1 season and Schoninger and the US union have fallen out.


Aye, but that's to do with any domestic league.

Any north American! South African team joining the pro12 is just luncay anyway.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby paddyor » April 20th, 2017, 12:18 am

FLIP wrote:
paddyor wrote:Well say what you like about them, but they know their stuff when it comes to owns shares, assets, debt etc and what that means for rheir club. Their experience of pro rugby has been markedly difgerent to ours. Starting with the rebel season, the downsizing of regions and the "civil war". They also have experience of shysters owning clubs unlike us. Its a story of decline. The game below.national level has been "ignored" for a long time, at some point that has to come back to bite.


They're part of the brain trust that thinks the end game is playing in the English Premiership.

Their experience of professionalism is very different to ours. Leaving aside the reality that the AP probably don't want them, they need something to change, and that may well be their only salvation (and not a great one at that). They're heavily reliant on benefactor money at the moment in large part due to a union decision to accelerate loan repayments on the millenium stadium. When you drill down into the ownership of shares, assets, debt, and directors loans it's a mess and only getting worse. They get nothing like the support we do and I suspect things won't change enough even when the stadium debt is cleared. They need more TV revenue and sponsorship than the Pro12 can provide.

They aren't completely blameless for the situation they find themselves in. When the HEC standoff ended the SRU made out like bandits(cleared their stadium debt) and PRW came away with the booby prize for their unconditional support of LNR/PRL. Alienating the supporters of the clubs they supplanted in regionalisation. Poor coaching appointments. It's a big list.

There isn't the money in Wales sustain 4 pro teams in or out of the Pro12 IMO. They might arrest that temporarily by joining the AP before becoming perenial basement dwellers. Don't think they'd get any extra fans in Wales as they're just as likely to support AP teams.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby cormac » April 20th, 2017, 8:40 am

FLIP wrote:
paddyor wrote:
FLIP wrote:Ah gwlad. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. Apart from shelbyville maybe.

Well say what you like about them, but they know their stuff when it comes to owns shares, assets, debt etc and what that means for rheir club. Their experience of pro rugby has been markedly difgerent to ours. Starting with the rebel season, the downsizing of regions and the "civil war". They also have experience of shysters owning clubs unlike us. Its a story of decline. The game below.national level has been "ignored" for a long time, at some point that has to come back to bite.


They're part of the brain trust that thinks the end game is playing in the English Premiership.


For the Welsh sides it probably would be a better fit
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby simonokeeffe » April 20th, 2017, 8:53 am

Rebel SA sides would be blocked by SANZAAR and SARFU and World Rugby

Plus most of the players are going to leave anyway. Also small matter of our winter being their summer
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby FLIP » April 20th, 2017, 9:18 am

cormac wrote:
FLIP wrote:They're part of the brain trust that thinks the end game is playing in the English Premiership.


For the Welsh sides it probably would be a better fit


The Anglo Welsh cup has put paid to that idea forever.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby rooster » April 20th, 2017, 11:55 am

FLIP wrote:
cormac wrote:
FLIP wrote:They're part of the brain trust that thinks the end game is playing in the English Premiership.


For the Welsh sides it probably would be a better fit


The Anglo Welsh cup has put paid to that idea forever.

Ah but sure in Welsh dreamland it was the battle with old traditional rivals that was the point of that and it would fill stadiums with thousands of supporters
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby FLIP » April 20th, 2017, 12:01 pm

rooster wrote:
FLIP wrote:
cormac wrote:For the Welsh sides it probably would be a better fit


The Anglo Welsh cup has put paid to that idea forever.

Ah but sure in Welsh dreamland it was the battle with old traditional rivals that was the point of that and it would fill stadiums with thousands of supporters


Meanwhile back in reality the most recent final could only attract 6,834 spectators and that was with 2 English clubs! The competition has gone from one contested by front line players to a youth competition, and frankly no English supporters I know give a cr@p about it any more (with perhaps Exeter fans being the exception as it was their first top tier silverware back in 2014).
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby Ruckedtobits » April 20th, 2017, 11:55 pm

The Welsh teams suffer from the fact the rugby in Wales is very like GAA in Ireland in its affiliations. Parish and Club is the bedrock. Regions / Provinces don't cut it, even if the standard is notionally higher.

Since 1995, the outlook hasn't changed. It's either Club or Country. No space for Regions. e.g. Pontypridd is only aj few miles from Cardiff but they hate each other and Ponty would plan a Welsh League at the same time as Cardiff play a European game, primarily to ensure their supporters aren'ttempted to go to the EPCR game.

No chance of solving that unless a Welsh Region wins something big. As soon as that happens, the others will follow suit and support Regions.
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Re: Pro 12 - General Thread

Postby simonokeeffe » April 21st, 2017, 8:23 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:The Welsh teams suffer from the fact the rugby in Wales is very like GAA in Ireland in its affiliations. Parish and Club is the bedrock. Regions / Provinces don't cut it, even if the standard is notionally higher.

Since 1995, the outlook hasn't changed. It's either Club or Country. No space for Regions. e.g. Pontypridd is only aj few miles from Cardiff but they hate each other and Ponty would plan a Welsh League at the same time as Cardiff play a European game, primarily to ensure their supporters aren'ttempted to go to the EPCR game.

No chance of solving that unless a Welsh Region wins something big. As soon as that happens, the others will follow suit and support Regions.


Thats a good point, regional rugby there is like the Railway Cup here. But also Ospreys have done the best as theyre the most regional
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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