BJ BOTHA'S YELLOW CARD, A POINT OF LAW

[All Blacks nil]

Law 16.1.b of the IRB rugby laws states as follows

How can a ruck form.
Players are on their feet.
At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent.
The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed

Now taking this into account watch the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cdx0q9UCAo&t=77m50s

As you see Botha makes the tackle, releases, gets back to his feet and picks up the ball.

If the ruck was formed it was a penalty and a yellow card.
But, was the ruck formed?
No Munster player is in the ruck. POC also a tackler is on the ground. There is no other Munster player in contact. Therefore the ruck is not formed. Botha got back to his feet and was entitled to play the ball.

I, for one, thought at the time that it was idiotic by Botha. However on viewing it again with the law written out in front of you, was it a yellow card?

Incidentally Ryan went straight off his feet and if refereed correctly should have been penalised.

Having said all that, if Botha hadn't been sin binned, we would not have seen POC screw the leinster loosehead in the next scrum and help the Munster six man scrum produce rock solid ball for his backline.

[blaker]

Mate, by and large you're not the worst of the Munster lads here but would ya give it a rest

[Dave Cahill]

Tackler assist must retire and re-enter through the gate, page 15 of the IRFU referee handbook, its not even a vague or borderline example of a breech.

[All Blacks nil]

Tackler assist must retire and re-enter through the gate, page 15 of the IRFU referee handbook, its not even a vague or borderline example of a breech.

But Botha was the tackler.
POC was the assist. Botha tackled him first.

[The Anathemata]

Tackler assist must retire and re-enter through the gate, page 15 of the IRFU referee handbook, its not even a vague or borderline example of a breech.

But Botha was the tackler.
POC was the assist. Botha tackled him first.

Correct.

[Dave Cahill]

Tackler assist must retire and re-enter through the gate, page 15 of the IRFU referee handbook, its not even a vague or borderline example of a breech.

But Botha was the tackler.
POC was the assist. Botha tackled him first.

No, O'Connell is the tackler, a tackler must go to ground and remain in contact with the tackled player to be considered a tackler. Also, with two 'tackling' players and the ball carrier, the rule of three is satisfied either way and we have a ruck and therefore an offside line.

[The Anathemata]

Tackler assist must retire and re-enter through the gate, page 15 of the IRFU referee handbook, its not even a vague or borderline example of a breech.

But Botha was the tackler.
POC was the assist. Botha tackled him first.

No, O'Connell is the tackler, a tackler must go to ground and remain in contact with the tackled player to be considered a tackler. Also, with two 'tackling' players and the ball carrier, the rule of three is satisfied either way and we have a ruck and therefore an offside line.

Correct!

[Grumpy Old Man]

Tackler assist must retire and re-enter through the gate, page 15 of the IRFU referee handbook, its not even a vague or borderline example of a breech.

But Botha was the tackler.
POC was the assist. Botha tackled him first.

No, O'Connell is the tackler, a tackler must go to ground and remain in contact with the tackled player to be considered a tackler. Also, with two 'tackling' players and the ball carrier, the rule of three is satisfied either way and we have a ruck and therefore an offside line.

Careful DJC, this could find its way to a dressing room in Limerick...

[paddyor]

HaS hE gOt EvErYoNeS aTtEnTiOn YeT?

[sewa]

There must be a Leinster player on his feet competing for the ball, I believe on rewatching it there was so it was a penalty but in terms of the rules there could be 14 Munstermen over the ball and no ruck formed as long as the opposition have no one competing

[Peg Leg]

There must be a Leinster player on his feet competing for the ball, I believe on rewatching it there was so it was a penalty but in terms of the rules there could be 14 Munstermen over the ball and no ruck formed as long as the opposition have no one competing

Sure there were no Leinster men competing for the whole match, how were there any peno's at all?

[Not_Today]

Some analysis by Murray Kinsella of the incident

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/bj-botha- ... itter_self

[All Blacks nil]

Some analysis by Murray Kinsella of the incident

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/bj-botha- ... itter_self

What would this guy know.
If Dave Cahill said it was a penalty it must have been. Who is this Murray Kinsella guy.

[Dave Cahill]

Hes a former Munster player.

People often think the laws of the game are the only things that matter in terms of refereeing a match, but referees have a wealth of supporting material that demonstrates how the laws are to be interpreted and what the IRB considers the doctrinaire interpretation of those laws. For example, he completely fails to even discuss, whatever ones position on it might be, the tackler assist concept

[All Blacks nil]

Dave Cahill
Didn't think you would fall for that one
He makes a pretty comprehensive case for the accused.
Munster should look to have that card rescinded.
I hope the fact he is a former Munster Academian will not cloud your judgement of his argument

Incidentally he does not discuss the assist tackler concept because Botha was THE tackler. The tackler isthe first man to tackle the ball carrier, not the last man to let him go
He defines the tackle, which Botha completed and released as required by the laws. He shows you the laws.
Once in a while a guy can admit to being wrong.

DIG DEEPER

[paddyor]

There is no intention of being overly critical of Davies here – he’s probably had a tough week anyway – but it is an interesting aspect of the game, and highlights the demands on referees at the top level.

With the speed of the game now, and the fact that professional and amateur players will push the laws to breaking point to get an advantage, it’s certainly not an easy job.

However, Munster coach Foley had his say on the decision, and it appears that he has a strong case.

If you've no interest in being critical of the ref, then why write an article of over 800 words complete with gifs on one particular decision that had no material outcome on the result? Great that he's bringing the technicality of the game to the masses but he could have offered other examples of how refs have got it wrong and right over the past few seasons. Really the whole thing hinges on whether the ref thinks a ruck has formed or if Botha is a beaten defender. He doesn't actually stop Madigan and the way he seems to slide off him and jump to his feet seemed...convenient.

I think Munster have done a bit of work on this. I was watching from the south stand so couldn't always see the action as clearly as I'd have liked[it may have just been my perception of events]. 2 or 3 times I thought Munster entered the ruck from an offside position in the first half(POC was one). I haven't rewatched the game and probably won't if you do watch out for tacklers and assisting tacklers/beaten defenders and what they do "after the tackle". I think if you're gonna "play on the edge" like that you have to take the rough with the smooth.

How do the rules apply if the play has moved on from initial contact. When the failed tackler releases does he have to roll back on side or make an effort to go in that direction?

Why make a big deal about 1 yellow card of 4 when it doesn't have any impact on the result? Why does a journalist(who more than likely has access to the players and staff) pen an article on such a non-event? Seeing as someones gone to the trouble of using CAPS in the thread title should we pass this on to MOC and the team for training?

Nice captaining from Heaslip to call the ref!

[ribs]

Can we remove the CAPITAL LETTERS from the thread title? Very annoying - yes I clicked into the thread to post this, no I didn't read any of it.

[Peg Leg]

Can we remove the CAPITAL LETTERS from the thread title? Very annoying - yes I clicked into the thread to post this, no I didn't read any of it.

WHY NOT?