European Champions Cup [Most Improved]

[paddyor]

I think it was money. All the waffle about the need for change was just to mask that.

The fact that Ulster have fallen away has nothing to do with the competition structure or seeding.

Glasgow and the Ospreys remain a disappointment in Europe.

I wouldn't go reading to much into it yet. IMO the impact of all the extra cash won't really be seen until after the RWC.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Not sure this is the right thread but by this day next week we will know the make-up of the eight quarter finalists in the shiny new European Rugby Champions Cup and whilst the Warriors are not mathematically out of things yet it looks like Leinster (touching wood and not seeing any chickens around just at the minute) may be the only team from the Pro12 that might make it through to the quarters. It's looking like four French sides, three English and ourselves. It may possibly be no representation from the Pro12 at all.

I am not sure about a couple of the early years and the format changed a bit then also but I think this will be the smallest representation the Pro12 (or its prior incarnations) will have had in the last 8, certainly in say 15 years. Is this an accident of a poor bunch of Pro12 sides this particular season? Or is it that the English and French sides are so much more financially strong that they will dominate the knock-out stages for the foreseeable future?

If it becomes and Anglo-French shoot-out each season will the IRFU (or WRU, SRU etc...) be able to hold onto their better players thus making the system worse? But more importantly, will the public buy into a competition that isn't really European after all? Will it be a truly European competition if the teams from Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland never really make it out of their pools?

For my part I find Toulon an admirable club in that their fans are passionate and they do genuinely appear to be a club in touch with the area they are from that connects with the fans but the massive budget they have and the ability to attract not just one but 2 or 3 world class talents for every position on the pitch makes them impossible to admire in terms of what they have achieved. They may not win every season but they look strong favourites for a first three in a row this season.

Will this not become boring for the neutral after a while? The only clubs that will challenge them will be clubs that get the cheque books out and try to join them in outbidding them.

Football has gone that way. Real and Barca pay the most and buy the best in Spain. Ditto Bayern in Germany. PSG have spent huge amounts (although may be the exception given their form this season) in France, Monaco to a lesser extent. Italy will always be dominated by Juve and the big two from Milan (despite what Roma and the occasional other interlopers like Napoli and Lazio etc may think). In England Chelsea and Man City have hugely wealthy benefactors that have brought them to the top of the League and Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal have always had more money partly due to their historical success. But at least in football the Champions League will still be genuinely fought for each season by clubs from four or five different countries. It will still be followed by neutrals from other countries. Will a rivalry between English and French Clubs be enough to sustain the rugby equivalent though?

PRL knew that by stacking the pool stages they'd be altering the odds in the favour of the English and French clubs. With the pools being tougher it's simple statistics that a country with 7 representatives is likely to have more group qualifiers than a country with 3. The money split up is also unfair imo. For me there should be some recognition that it's a competition between teams from different countries, and not just between individual clubs.

Having said that, Ulster are much weaker than they have been in ages and even with the new set-up Munster were a bit unlucky to get such a nightmare pool. It'll be a few years before it's apparent exactly what the new order means for the Irish sides

Ha ha. That is one way of looking at it. The wrong way. How exactly are the pools stacked? This year's pools stages have been the most closely contested and competitive ever. More teams are in contention for the quarter finals and more matches have competitive meaning. Cutting away the four weakest teams has improved the pool stages beyond measure and made the pools much more equal. Only really Treviso and Castres haven't been up to scratch this year. Even Sale have given a good account of themselves even if they haven't won a match. The teams excluded; Cardiff, Zebra, Edinburgh and Connacht wouldn't have added any more value to the competition and none of them would have had any prospect of qualifying for the quarter finals.

Also why is the money split unfair? It is the English and French market that generates the competition's commercial revenues and the English and the French that supply twice as many teams to the European competitions. Allocating money on a per team rather than a per country basis is a much fairer way of doing it.

[johng]

The teams excluded; Cardiff, Zebra, Edinburgh and Connacht Stade Francais

Common misconception

[Beckenham Wasp]

Going all the way back to the 2nd year of the comp in 1996/7 when the first quarter finals happened. There has always been representation from what are now the 3 Leagues. (Apart from the year the English teams did not compete)

The best year for the Celts was 2012 when Embra, Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff all made the knockouts with Leinster beating Ulster in the final and 3 Celtic teams in the semis. (This was arguably the year that sealed the fate of the HC as we knew it)

The worst year was 97/98 when only Cardiff made it. We have had Irish representation every year since.

F	E	C		
3	2	3	14
3	3	2	13
2	1	5	12
4	2	2	11
4	1	3	10
1	3	4	09
2	3	3	08
2	3	3	07
3	3	2	06
3	3	2	05
3	2	3	04
3	2	3	03
3	2	3	02
3	2	3	01
3	2	3	00
4	0	4	99
3	4	1	98
3	3	2	97

Also by 2012 Pro12 sides had won five of the last seven HECs. It does smack a bit of the English and French being fed up with Munster and Leinster, although Edinburgh making the semis and beating the holders Toulouse along the way may arguably have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Strange though that no one in England and France said then that the English and French teams would just have to find a way of being able to compete. No they just re-jigged the competition so as to give themselves greater financial muscle and make the playing field more uneven. Mind you Toulon demonstrated in the last two years of the competition that money certainly provided an ability to go the distance.

I do worry though that it will be very boring if it becomes an annual Anglo French knock out competition with the other nations just there to determine the draw for the quarter finals.

5 of the 7 last European Cups were won by two Irish provinces not Pro 12 teams in general. Outside of 3 Irish provinces the Pro 12 has added little or no value to the competition on or off the pitch. When you look at the structural reasons that contributed to Leinster's and Munster's success over that period then you can understand why the French and English clubs were unhappy.

The straw that broke the camel's back wasn't the number of Pro12 teams getting through to the quarter finals it was when the French Federation double crossed the French clubs over the election of Peter Wheeler to be the new Chairman of the ERC. The demand for a new competition stemmed from the French Federation siding with the Pro12 Unions against their own clubs. The French clubs realised they couldn't trust their own Federation any more and wanted a new competition that had a genuine shake in themselves. The English clubs had always been unhappy with how the ERC was arranged so when the French clubs became disenchanted too it was game over for the ERC. Remember the ERC relied on 26 English and French clubs to play in their competitions. No English and French clubs no ERC and so it has proved.

[Beckenham Wasp]

The teams excluded; Cardiff, Zebra, Edinburgh and Connacht Stade Francais

Common misconception

Yeap. My mistake. Stade Francais because a French team won the competition. Stade Francais had their chance of getting into the competition but were beaten fair and square in the play offs.

The new qualification process actually helps the Irish Provinces with 4 provinces being able to qualify without having to win the competition. It is quite likely that this season 4 Irish teams, 1 Scottish, 1 Welsh and 1 Italian team will make up the Pro12 qualifiers. An embarrassment for the rest of the Pro12 to be honest. How professional teams based in Cardiff and Edinburgh struggle to compete with an under funded team based in a small city like Galway is worthy of ridicule

[blockhead]

Going all the way back to the 2nd year of the comp in 1996/7 when the first quarter finals happened. There has always been representation from what are now the 3 Leagues. (Apart from the year the English teams did not compete)

The best year for the Celts was 2012 when Embra, Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff all made the knockouts with Leinster beating Ulster in the final and 3 Celtic teams in the semis. (This was arguably the year that sealed the fate of the HC as we knew it)

The worst year was 97/98 when only Cardiff made it. We have had Irish representation every year since.

F	E	C		
3	2	3	14
3	3	2	13
2	1	5	12
4	2	2	11
4	1	3	10
1	3	4	09
2	3	3	08
2	3	3	07
3	3	2	06
3	3	2	05
3	2	3	04
3	2	3	03
3	2	3	02
3	2	3	01
3	2	3	00
4	0	4	99
3	4	1	98
3	3	2	97

Also by 2012 Pro12 sides had won five of the last seven HECs. It does smack a bit of the English and French being fed up with Munster and Leinster, although Edinburgh making the semis and beating the holders Toulouse along the way may arguably have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Strange though that no one in England and France said then that the English and French teams would just have to find a way of being able to compete. No they just re-jigged the competition so as to give themselves greater financial muscle and make the playing field more uneven. Mind you Toulon demonstrated in the last two years of the competition that money certainly provided an ability to go the distance.

I do worry though that it will be very boring if it becomes an annual Anglo French knock out competition with the other nations just there to determine the draw for the quarter finals.

5 of the 7 last European Cups were won by two Irish provinces not Pro 12 teams in general. Outside of 3 Irish provinces the Pro 12 has added little or no value to the competition on or off the pitch. When you look at the structural reasons that contributed to Leinster's and Munster's success over that period then you can understand why the French and English clubs were unhappy.

The straw that broke the camel's back wasn't the number of Pro12 teams getting through to the quarter finals it was when the French Federation double crossed the French clubs over the election of Peter Wheeler to be the new Chairman of the ERC. The demand for a new competition stemmed from the French Federation siding with the Pro12 Unions against their own clubs. The French clubs realised they couldn't trust their own Federation any more and wanted a new competition that had a genuine shake in themselves. The English clubs had always been unhappy with how the ERC was arranged so when the French clubs became disenchanted too it was game over for the ERC. Remember the ERC relied on 26 English and French clubs to play in their competitions. No English and French clubs no ERC and so it has proved.

How many PRL clubs would you put into that category BW? Considering that none of them have won it in 7 seasons, and only 3 out of 14 finalists in that period.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Also by 2012 Pro12 sides had won five of the last seven HECs. It does smack a bit of the English and French being fed up with Munster and Leinster, although Edinburgh making the semis and beating the holders Toulouse along the way may arguably have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Strange though that no one in England and France said then that the English and French teams would just have to find a way of being able to compete. No they just re-jigged the competition so as to give themselves greater financial muscle and make the playing field more uneven. Mind you Toulon demonstrated in the last two years of the competition that money certainly provided an ability to go the distance.

I do worry though that it will be very boring if it becomes an annual Anglo French knock out competition with the other nations just there to determine the draw for the quarter finals.

5 of the 7 last European Cups were won by two Irish provinces not Pro 12 teams in general. Outside of 3 Irish provinces the Pro 12 has added little or no value to the competition on or off the pitch. When you look at the structural reasons that contributed to Leinster's and Munster's success over that period then you can understand why the French and English clubs were unhappy.

The straw that broke the camel's back wasn't the number of Pro12 teams getting through to the quarter finals it was when the French Federation double crossed the French clubs over the election of Peter Wheeler to be the new Chairman of the ERC. The demand for a new competition stemmed from the French Federation siding with the Pro12 Unions against their own clubs. The French clubs realised they couldn't trust their own Federation any more and wanted a new competition that had a genuine shake in themselves. The English clubs had always been unhappy with how the ERC was arranged so when the French clubs became disenchanted too it was game over for the ERC. Remember the ERC relied on 26 English and French clubs to play in their competitions. No English and French clubs no ERC and so it has proved.[/quote]

How many PRL clubs would you put into that category BW? Considering that none of them have won it in 7 seasons, and only 3 out of 14 finalists in that period.[/quote]

I would say adding value is having teams that contend and qualify for the knock stages on a regular basis. Who exactly do you think Leinster had to beat to win the competition in 2009 and 2011? In 2009 Leinster had to beat Wasps in the pools, Quins in the quarters and Leicester in the final. In 2011 Leinster had to beat Leicester in the quarter finals and Northampton in the final. None of that was a walk in the park was it. The Irish Provinces have to play against some one credible to make winning the competition mean anything.

In terms of the weaker teams in the competition not being bonus point fodder and being hopelessly out of the depth would be a start. Exeter would be a good example of that. The record of the non-Irish Pro 12 teams in the European Cup was lamentable. Welsh teams have had some frightful beating in the quarter finals in the odd occasions they qualified and in the last 10 years only Cardiff in 2009 and Edinburgh in 2012 put in any sort of credible challenge. People remember them because they were so exceptional.

Off the field I suggest you look at the difference in values between the sponsorship and TV deals of the English Premiership and Top 14 compared to the Pro 12 to see who brings most of the money and commercial value to the table. The IRFU aren't playing in the Champions Cup out of the goodness of their own heart. They want to get hold of some of that French and English money and they want the higher level of competition that the French and English clubs provide.

[JB1973]

Also by 2012 Pro12 sides had won five of the last seven HECs. It does smack a bit of the English and French being fed up with Munster and Leinster, although Edinburgh making the semis and beating the holders Toulouse along the way may arguably have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Strange though that no one in England and France said then that the English and French teams would just have to find a way of being able to compete. No they just re-jigged the competition so as to give themselves greater financial muscle and make the playing field more uneven. Mind you Toulon demonstrated in the last two years of the competition that money certainly provided an ability to go the distance.

I do worry though that it will be very boring if it becomes an annual Anglo French knock out competition with the other nations just there to determine the draw for the quarter finals.

5 of the 7 last European Cups were won by two Irish provinces not Pro 12 teams in general. Outside of 3 Irish provinces the Pro 12 has added little or no value to the competition on or off the pitch. When you look at the structural reasons that contributed to Leinster's and Munster's success over that period then you can understand why the French and English clubs were unhappy.

The straw that broke the camel's back wasn't the number of Pro12 teams getting through to the quarter finals it was when the French Federation double crossed the French clubs over the election of Peter Wheeler to be the new Chairman of the ERC. The demand for a new competition stemmed from the French Federation siding with the Pro12 Unions against their own clubs. The French clubs realised they couldn't trust their own Federation any more and wanted a new competition that had a genuine shake in themselves. The English clubs had always been unhappy with how the ERC was arranged so when the French clubs became disenchanted too it was game over for the ERC. Remember the ERC relied on 26 English and French clubs to play in their competitions. No English and French clubs no ERC and so it has proved.

How many PRL clubs would you put into that category BW? Considering that none of them have won it in 7 seasons, and only 3 out of 14 finalists in that period.[/quote]

I would say adding value is having teams that contend and qualify for the knock stages on a regular basis. Who exactly do you think Leinster had to beat to win the competition in 2009 and 2011? In 2009 Leinster had to beat Wasps in the pools, Quins in the quarters and Leicester in the final. In 2011 Leinster had to beat Leicester in the quarter finals and Northampton in the final. None of that was a walk in the park was it. The Irish Provinces have to play against some one credible to make winning the competition mean anything.

In terms of the weaker teams in the competition not being bonus point fodder and being hopelessly out of the depth would be a start. Exeter would be a good example of that. The record of the non-Irish Pro 12 teams in the European Cup was lamentable. Welsh teams have had some frightful beating in the quarter finals in the odd occasions they qualified and in the last 10 years only Cardiff in 2009 and Edinburgh in 2012 put in any sort of credible challenge. People remember them because they were so exceptional.

Off the field I suggest you look at the difference in values between the sponsorship and TV deals of the English Premiership and Top 14 compared to the Pro 12 to see who brings most of the money and commercial value to the table. The IRFU aren't playing in the Champions Cup out of the goodness of their own heart. They want to get hold of some of that French and English money and they want the higher level of competition that the French and English clubs provide.[/quote]


Scarlets have won three quarter finals. the blues two and even Swansea rfc won one so not quite the heavy beatings every time you suggest

[paddyor]

I would say adding value is having teams that contend and qualify for the knock stages on a regular basis. Who exactly do you think Leinster had to beat to win the competition in 2009 and 2011? In 2009 Leinster had to beat Wasps in the pools, Quins in the quarters and Leicester in the final. In 2011 Leinster had to beat Leicester in the quarter finals and Northampton in the final. None of that was a walk in the park was it. The Irish Provinces have to play against some one credible to make winning the competition mean anything.

In terms of the weaker teams in the competition not being bonus point fodder and being hopelessly out of the depth would be a start. Exeter would be a good example of that. The record of the non-Irish Pro 12 teams in the European Cup was lamentable. Welsh teams have had some frightful beating in the quarter finals in the odd occasions they qualified and in the last 10 years only Cardiff in 2009 and Edinburgh in 2012 put in any sort of credible challenge. People remember them because they were so exceptional.

Off the field I suggest you look at the difference in values between the sponsorship and TV deals of the English Premiership and Top 14 compared to the Pro 12 to see who brings most of the money and commercial value to the table. The IRFU aren't playing in the Champions Cup out of the goodness of their own heart. They want to get hold of some of that French and English money and they want the higher level of competition that the French and English clubs provide.

The quote function only works 3 comments deep.

Bonus point fodder like Castres this year and Montpellier. The French and English have a fine tradition of supplying bonus point fodder like Sale and Racing Metro in previous years. The next "logical" step is to cut the number of teams in it to 16 (as it now looks likely that 4 teams will end the competition with no wins) and relegate everyone else into the "Challenge Cup".

It's a cup competition, it's meant to have miss matches. The fortunes of the respective leagues should fluctuate a bit.

And FYI no one was all that interested in an Anglo French competition. French broadcasters were barely interested in this one. For proof of this see the money BT bribed the SRU with and to a lesser extent the Welsh clubs.

[Lar]

Cheers Paddy - that was exactly my main point which appears to have been ignored. Everyone needs everyone else to make a European competition genuinely worthwhile. If it becomes what is in effect an Anglo French competition then people will lose interest in it and it will die, even those in England and France.

The question of who provides the largest revenue will be irrelevant if the competition doesn't survive.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Also by 2012 Pro12 sides had won five of the last seven HECs. It does smack a bit of the English and French being fed up with Munster and Leinster, although Edinburgh making the semis and beating the holders Toulouse along the way may arguably have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Strange though that no one in England and France said then that the English and French teams would just have to find a way of being able to compete. No they just re-jigged the competition so as to give themselves greater financial muscle and make the playing field more uneven. Mind you Toulon demonstrated in the last two years of the competition that money certainly provided an ability to go the distance.

I do worry though that it will be very boring if it becomes an annual Anglo French knock out competition with the other nations just there to determine the draw for the quarter finals.

5 of the 7 last European Cups were won by two Irish provinces not Pro 12 teams in general. Outside of 3 Irish provinces the Pro 12 has added little or no value to the competition on or off the pitch. When you look at the structural reasons that contributed to Leinster's and Munster's success over that period then you can understand why the French and English clubs were unhappy.

The straw that broke the camel's back wasn't the number of Pro12 teams getting through to the quarter finals it was when the French Federation double crossed the French clubs over the election of Peter Wheeler to be the new Chairman of the ERC. The demand for a new competition stemmed from the French Federation siding with the Pro12 Unions against their own clubs. The French clubs realised they couldn't trust their own Federation any more and wanted a new competition that had a genuine shake in themselves. The English clubs had always been unhappy with how the ERC was arranged so when the French clubs became disenchanted too it was game over for the ERC. Remember the ERC relied on 26 English and French clubs to play in their competitions. No English and French clubs no ERC and so it has proved.

How many PRL clubs would you put into that category BW? Considering that none of them have won it in 7 seasons, and only 3 out of 14 finalists in that period.

I would say adding value is having teams that contend and qualify for the knock stages on a regular basis. Who exactly do you think Leinster had to beat to win the competition in 2009 and 2011? In 2009 Leinster had to beat Wasps in the pools, Quins in the quarters and Leicester in the final. In 2011 Leinster had to beat Leicester in the quarter finals and Northampton in the final. None of that was a walk in the park was it. The Irish Provinces have to play against some one credible to make winning the competition mean anything.

In terms of the weaker teams in the competition not being bonus point fodder and being hopelessly out of the depth would be a start. Exeter would be a good example of that. The record of the non-Irish Pro 12 teams in the European Cup was lamentable. Welsh teams have had some frightful beating in the quarter finals in the odd occasions they qualified and in the last 10 years only Cardiff in 2009 and Edinburgh in 2012 put in any sort of credible challenge. People remember them because they were so exceptional.

Off the field I suggest you look at the difference in values between the sponsorship and TV deals of the English Premiership and Top 14 compared to the Pro 12 to see who brings most of the money and commercial value to the table. The IRFU aren't playing in the Champions Cup out of the goodness of their own heart. They want to get hold of some of that French and English money and they want the higher level of competition that the French and English clubs provide.[/quote]


Scarlets have won three quarter finals. the blues two and even Swansea rfc won one so not quite the heavy beatings every time you suggest[/quote]

Err. Llanelli RFC were a decent outfit about 15 years ago. That is scrapping the barrel. They weren't even "The Scarlets" then. Since regionalisation the Welsh teams have been pretty dreadful.

[Beckenham Wasp]

I would say adding value is having teams that contend and qualify for the knock stages on a regular basis. Who exactly do you think Leinster had to beat to win the competition in 2009 and 2011? In 2009 Leinster had to beat Wasps in the pools, Quins in the quarters and Leicester in the final. In 2011 Leinster had to beat Leicester in the quarter finals and Northampton in the final. None of that was a walk in the park was it. The Irish Provinces have to play against some one credible to make winning the competition mean anything.

In terms of the weaker teams in the competition not being bonus point fodder and being hopelessly out of the depth would be a start. Exeter would be a good example of that. The record of the non-Irish Pro 12 teams in the European Cup was lamentable. Welsh teams have had some frightful beating in the quarter finals in the odd occasions they qualified and in the last 10 years only Cardiff in 2009 and Edinburgh in 2012 put in any sort of credible challenge. People remember them because they were so exceptional.

Off the field I suggest you look at the difference in values between the sponsorship and TV deals of the English Premiership and Top 14 compared to the Pro 12 to see who brings most of the money and commercial value to the table. The IRFU aren't playing in the Champions Cup out of the goodness of their own heart. They want to get hold of some of that French and English money and they want the higher level of competition that the French and English clubs provide.

The quote function only works 3 comments deep.

Bonus point fodder like Castres this year and Montpellier. The French and English have a fine tradition of supplying bonus point fodder like Sale and Racing Metro in previous years. The next "logical" step is to cut the number of teams in it to 16 (as it now looks likely that 4 teams will end the competition with no wins) and relegate everyone else into the "Challenge Cup".

It's a cup competition, it's meant to have miss matches. The fortunes of the respective leagues should fluctuate a bit.

And FYI no one was all that interested in an Anglo French competition. French broadcasters were barely interested in this one. For proof of this see the money BT bribed the SRU with and to a lesser extent the Welsh clubs.

I would be quite in favour of two 16 teams competitions. The top competition would be very cut throat and the second competition would be considerably strengthened. 5 qualifiers from each league plus the winner of the second competition. It would make very good viewing.

The problem with the old competition was that there were teams that were given automatic places in the competition that unbalanced the draw. With only 2 best runners up the teams in the same pools as the Italians were given a massive advantage.

The draw of the Champions Cup has been much more balanced with the weaker sides being shared between the pools. Castres, Sale, Montpelier, Ulster and Treviso spread throughout the competition. Out of those 5 only really Castres and Treviso have been dreadful and bonus point fodder and only Treviso's presence has really corrupted the group stages because Ospreys have been pretty rubbish too.

[johng]

Castres, Sale, Montpelier, Ulster and Treviso spread throughout the competition. Out of those 5 only really Castres and Treviso have been dreadful and bonus point fodder and only Treviso's presence has really corrupted the group stages because Ospreys have been pretty rubbish too.

You do know that Castres and Montpellier were 2nd seeds in the comp, with Clermont and Ulster 3rd seeds.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Cheers Paddy - that was exactly my main point which appears to have been ignored. Everyone needs everyone else to make a European competition genuinely worthwhile. If it becomes what is in effect an Anglo French competition then people will lose interest in it and it will die, even those in England and France.

The question of who provides the largest revenue will be irrelevant if the competition doesn't survive.

Well that is a good point but the IRFU needed a European competition much more than the English and French clubs did. Both commercially and in rugby terms. That is why they were forced to compromise in the end. Without a European competition the very viability of professional rugby in Ireland would have been called into question. The English and French clubs knew that and they knew that once all the shouting and hoohaa had stopped the IRFU and the other Celtic Unions would have to compromise.

In terms of whether a European competition dominated by Toulon, Racing, Clermont and Racing and 1 or 2 of the English clubs would lose interest and value is questionable. Has the interest in Champions League soccer been massively effected by the dominance of the bigger countries since it was created? Do the Scots, Dutch, Portuguese, French, Serbs, Russians etc not care about it any more? Of course they do. Watching the best teams in Europe playing each other has an allure. The best team in Europe. Some of the best European games I have seen have been between French and Irish teams and just because I am English it doesn't mean I am not interested watching those games.

Anyway I doubt the Irish teams will remain uncompetitive for very long. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have the support base and the market to compete commercially if they wanted too. It is just whether the IRFU would want to do that and whether the performances of the Provinces are actually that important.

[Beckenham Wasp]

Castres, Sale, Montpelier, Ulster and Treviso spread throughout the competition. Out of those 5 only really Castres and Treviso have been dreadful and bonus point fodder and only Treviso's presence has really corrupted the group stages because Ospreys have been pretty rubbish too.

You do know that Castres and Montpellier were 2nd seeds in the comp, with Clermont and Ulster 3rd seeds.

Yes I was aware of that. Toulouse were a bottom seed too. Just goes to show how more equal and competitive the competition has been. You have had 3 pools where there have been 3 genuine contenders for qualification. I don't think that has happened before and only 1 runaway pool with the qualifier decided before the final round of matches.

High seeded teams like Leinster, Glasgow, Castres and Saracens could all miss out whilst low seeded teams like Wasps, Toulouse and Clermont could all go through. It makes for a much more interesting competition than a cake walk for the high seeded teams.

[janeymac08]

Cheers Paddy - that was exactly my main point which appears to have been ignored. Everyone needs everyone else to make a European competition genuinely worthwhile. If it becomes what is in effect an Anglo French competition then people will lose interest in it and it will die, even those in England and France.

The question of who provides the largest revenue will be irrelevant if the competition doesn't survive.

Well that is a good point but the IRFU needed a European competition much more than the English and French clubs did. Both commercially and in rugby terms. That is why they were forced to compromise in the end. Without a European competition the very viability of professional rugby in Ireland would have been called into question. The English and French clubs knew that and they knew that once all the shouting and hoohaa had stopped the IRFU and the other Celtic Unions would have to compromise.

In terms of whether a European competition dominated by Toulon, Racing, Clermont and Racing and 1 or 2 of the English clubs would lose interest and value is questionable. Has the interest in Champions League soccer been massively effected by the dominance of the bigger countries since it was created? Do the Scots, Dutch, Portuguese, French, Serbs, Russians etc not care about it any more? Of course they do. Watching the best teams in Europe playing each other has an allure. The best team in Europe. Some of the best European games I have seen have been between French and Irish teams and just because I am English it doesn't mean I am not interested watching those games.

Anyway I doubt the Irish teams will remain uncompetitive for very long. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have the support base and the market to compete commercially if they wanted too. It is just whether the IRFU would want to do that and whether the performances of the Provinces are actually that important.

The French were the only ones not bothered about a European competition. The PRL did their best to disrupt the competition by promising the Welsh access into the English league. Why did BT try to bribe the Irish Provinces (and succeeded in bribing the Scots & Welsh).

Interesting comments in Irish newspapers today from the Acting Chairman of the EPCR. Organisationally, everything is not going to plan. From the looks of things, I'd be concerned if I were you if there will actually be a cup next year!

Wrangles rumble on in Europe
By PA Sport
Last update Yesterday at 15:02 - Published on 20/01/2015 at 00:55
European rugby bosses have confirmed internal wrangling could delay the appointment of a figurehead chairman for the revamped continental game by five months.

The search for an independent chairman to lead European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR) is already three months behind schedule, and could stretch beyond March.

Europe's new governing body EPCR was forced to commission predecessor European Rugby Cup (ERC) to run this term's competitions, unable to secure new operations in Switzerland quickly enough.

The new set-up remains on course to take full control a year behind schedule in Neuchatel next term, after redundancy packages were agreed with ERC staff.

European chiefs confirmed that 10 or 11 of ERC's 15 staff will accept redundancy deals this summer, with EPCR now seeking new recruits for their Switzerland base.

"There has to be unanimous agreement on the new chairman from the nominations committee, which is sometimes hard to get," interim chairman Paul McNaughton told Press Association Sport.

"There have been many discussions but we are hoping to make progress over the next couple of months, and there are still a number of candidates out there."

McNaughton will revert to his role as vice-chairman in a five-strong EPCR executive committee once the permanent independent chairman is appointed.

The former Ireland team manager had expected EPCR to ratify the new chairman as far back as October, but the process still rumbles on.

The new EPCR set-up is the fruit of two years of civil war across Europe, but has resulted in record TV revenue and more meritocratic qualification processes.

The Champions Cup has replaced the Heineken Cup, with the old governing body ERC rendered defunct this summer, one season behind schedule.

McNaughton confirmed part of the delay in appointing EPCR's new chairman centres around the hunt for a director general to compete that five-strong executive committee.

"The nominations committee has proposed to the board that we recruit a chairman and a director general at the same time," said McNaughton.

"What we'll concentrate on at the moment is the organisation of the new structure in Neuchatel and going through that process with staff.

"The new chairman is important, but there is other work we have to get done as well at the same time.

"It's important to ensure we build the right structure of the organisation in Neuchatel, and that must be step one.

"Step two then is what type of director general we aim for, and three, a chairman to complement the director general.

"Four or five of the ERC staff will be moving to Switzerland but the vast majority will not.

"There's no perfect scenario when staff have to choose between redundancy and moving from Dublin to Switzerland, but it has been our priority to ensure that process has been conducted as professionally as possible.

"And the ERC staff have shown extremely high professionalism in continuing to run the tournament this season."

McNaughton admitted European bosses must address fresh concerns over the second-tier Challenge Cup that has been hit with new criticism this season.

This year's Challenge Cup winners will not qualify automatically for next season's Champions Cup, and teams no longer drop down from the top to the second tier at the quarter-final stage.

Grenoble coach Bernard Jackman branded the Challenge Cup a "pointless competition", voicing general dissatisfaction that has forced a rethink among European bosses.

McNaughton said boosting Challenge Cup prize money will be discussed at next month's EPCR board meeting.

"There's a feeling out there that the Challenge Cup has lost something and that's something we have to address," said McNaughton.

"Increasing prize money may be one of the ways we could seek to look at this.

"Actually though there is already reward for the Challenge Cup winners that many people haven't realised.

"The winners of the Challenge Cup can still qualify for the Champions Cup play-offs if they haven't already done so through league position."

http://au.eurosport.com/rugby/wrangles- ... tory.shtml


It looks like its Peter Wheeler Mark II again!

[paddyor]

In terms of whether a European competition dominated by Toulon, Racing, Clermont and Racing and 1 or 2 of the English clubs would lose interest and value is questionable. Has the interest in Champions League soccer been massively effected by the dominance of the bigger countries since it was created? Do the Scots, Dutch, Portuguese, French, Serbs, Russians etc not care about it any more? Of course they do. Watching the best teams in Europe playing each other has an allure. The best team in Europe. Some of the best European games I have seen have been between French and Irish teams and just because I am English it doesn't mean I am not interested watching those games.

The Champions league has a broad entry level and still has mismatches like Celtic vs Barcalona. If it was just the top 4 from the 4 big leagues it would lose a lot of it's appeal to many Europeans. That said it would still be lucrative to the clubs as all there foreign support would still like to watch it.

Also on the point of dropping the competition to 16, do you not think the French teams would still be inclined to just throw in the towel after 2/3 defeats as they always do. You'd still more than likely end up with 3-4 teams with nothing but LBPs. Gloucester sent a reserve side to Thomond park last year.

Then there's the botched Challenge cup that nobody cares about. It's just a distraction from the league.

Whatever happened to the 3rd competition?

[Tricky Dicky]

Not sure this is the right thread but by this day next week we will know the make-up of the eight quarter finalists in the shiny new European Rugby Champions Cup and whilst the Warriors are not mathematically out of things yet it looks like Leinster (touching wood and not seeing any chickens around just at the minute) may be the only team from the Pro12 that might make it through to the quarters. It's looking like four French sides, three English and ourselves. It may possibly be no representation from the Pro12 at all.

I am not sure about a couple of the early years and the format changed a bit then also but I think this will be the smallest representation the Pro12 (or its prior incarnations) will have had in the last 8, certainly in say 15 years. Is this an accident of a poor bunch of Pro12 sides this particular season? Or is it that the English and French sides are so much more financially strong that they will dominate the knock-out stages for the foreseeable future?

If it becomes and Anglo-French shoot-out each season will the IRFU (or WRU, SRU etc...) be able to hold onto their better players thus making the system worse? But more importantly, will the public buy into a competition that isn't really European after all? Will it be a truly European competition if the teams from Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland never really make it out of their pools?

For my part I find Toulon an admirable club in that their fans are passionate and they do genuinely appear to be a club in touch with the area they are from that connects with the fans but the massive budget they have and the ability to attract not just one but 2 or 3 world class talents for every position on the pitch makes them impossible to admire in terms of what they have achieved. They may not win every season but they look strong favourites for a first three in a row this season.

Will this not become boring for the neutral after a while? The only clubs that will challenge them will be clubs that get the cheque books out and try to join them in outbidding them.

Football has gone that way. Real and Barca pay the most and buy the best in Spain. Ditto Bayern in Germany. PSG have spent huge amounts (although may be the exception given their form this season) in France, Monaco to a lesser extent. Italy will always be dominated by Juve and the big two from Milan (despite what Roma and the occasional other interlopers like Napoli and Lazio etc may think). In England Chelsea and Man City have hugely wealthy benefactors that have brought them to the top of the League and Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal have always had more money partly due to their historical success. But at least in football the Champions League will still be genuinely fought for each season by clubs from four or five different countries. It will still be followed by neutrals from other countries. Will a rivalry between English and French Clubs be enough to sustain the rugby equivalent though?

PRL knew that by stacking the pool stages they'd be altering the odds in the favour of the English and French clubs. With the pools being tougher it's simple statistics that a country with 7 representatives is likely to have more group qualifiers than a country with 3. The money split up is also unfair imo. For me there should be some recognition that it's a competition between teams from different countries, and not just between individual clubs.

Having said that, Ulster are much weaker than they have been in ages and even with the new set-up Munster were a bit unlucky to get such a nightmare pool. It'll be a few years before it's apparent exactly what the new order means for the Irish sides

Ha ha. That is one way of looking at it. The wrong way. How exactly are the pools stacked? This year's pools stages have been the most closely contested and competitive ever. More teams are in contention for the quarter finals and more matches have competitive meaning. Cutting away the four weakest teams has improved the pool stages beyond measure and made the pools much more equal. Only really Treviso and Castres haven't been up to scratch this year. Even Sale have given a good account of themselves even if they haven't won a match. The teams excluded; Cardiff, Zebra, Edinburgh and Connacht wouldn't have added any more value to the competition and none of them would have had any prospect of qualifying for the quarter finals.

Also why is the money split unfair? It is the English and French market that generates the competition's commercial revenues and the English and the French that supply twice as many teams to the European competitions. Allocating money on a per team rather than a per country basis is a much fairer way of doing it.

I mean stacked as in having a lot of strong teams in them. Munster's group is just ridiculous. There should have been a caveat put in place so no more than two semi-finalists from the previous year can be in any one group. Munster are well worth a place in the quarters imo, and only missed out through having the 2nd and 3rd best teams in Europe in their group.

I think you underestimate what a good cup team Cardiff can be. They're much better in Europe than in the Pro12 (They beat Toulon last season). We could see a competition next year with 7 English and only one Welsh team in it. You can talk about merit but surely that's too imbalanced

The money split is unfair in my opinion. It's not just a club competition with no national interests. If Saracens or Northampton won they'd partly be winning for England. Is it fair that England gets 6 times as much money as Scotland? By the way I think Scotland and Italy should get more proportionately per team than Ireland. The Heineken Cup money split might have been unfair in favour of Ireland, but I think they've gone too far the other way now.

In your other posts you advocate a 16-team top comp. That would be more symmetrical in terms of equal number of qualifiers from each group but I don't think that's the way to go as you couldn't justify an Italian team being in it on merit. I think a 32-team, 8-group structure would be great. You'd have the possibility of good smaller sides like Exeter or Cardiff putting a run together. There would be more vibrancy and variety, and it could still be seeded based on League position. As it stands the current Challenge Cup isn't worth a lot

[Beckenham Wasp]

Cheers Paddy - that was exactly my main point which appears to have been ignored. Everyone needs everyone else to make a European competition genuinely worthwhile. If it becomes what is in effect an Anglo French competition then people will lose interest in it and it will die, even those in England and France.

The question of who provides the largest revenue will be irrelevant if the competition doesn't survive.

Well that is a good point but the IRFU needed a European competition much more than the English and French clubs did. Both commercially and in rugby terms. That is why they were forced to compromise in the end. Without a European competition the very viability of professional rugby in Ireland would have been called into question. The English and French clubs knew that and they knew that once all the shouting and hoohaa had stopped the IRFU and the other Celtic Unions would have to compromise.

In terms of whether a European competition dominated by Toulon, Racing, Clermont and Racing and 1 or 2 of the English clubs would lose interest and value is questionable. Has the interest in Champions League soccer been massively effected by the dominance of the bigger countries since it was created? Do the Scots, Dutch, Portuguese, French, Serbs, Russians etc not care about it any more? Of course they do. Watching the best teams in Europe playing each other has an allure. The best team in Europe. Some of the best European games I have seen have been between French and Irish teams and just because I am English it doesn't mean I am not interested watching those games.

Anyway I doubt the Irish teams will remain uncompetitive for very long. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have the support base and the market to compete commercially if they wanted too. It is just whether the IRFU would want to do that and whether the performances of the Provinces are actually that important.

The French were the only ones not bothered about a European competition. The PRL did their best to disrupt the competition by promising the Welsh access into the English league. Why did BT try to bribe the Irish Provinces (and succeeded in bribing the Scots & Welsh).

Interesting comments in Irish newspapers today from the Acting Chairman of the EPCR. Organisationally, everything is not going to plan. From the looks of things, I'd be concerned if I were you if there will actually be a cup next year!

Wrangles rumble on in Europe
By PA Sport
Last update Yesterday at 15:02 - Published on 20/01/2015 at 00:55
European rugby bosses have confirmed internal wrangling could delay the appointment of a figurehead chairman for the revamped continental game by five months.

The search for an independent chairman to lead European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR) is already three months behind schedule, and could stretch beyond March.

Europe's new governing body EPCR was forced to commission predecessor European Rugby Cup (ERC) to run this term's competitions, unable to secure new operations in Switzerland quickly enough.

The new set-up remains on course to take full control a year behind schedule in Neuchatel next term, after redundancy packages were agreed with ERC staff.

European chiefs confirmed that 10 or 11 of ERC's 15 staff will accept redundancy deals this summer, with EPCR now seeking new recruits for their Switzerland base.

"There has to be unanimous agreement on the new chairman from the nominations committee, which is sometimes hard to get," interim chairman Paul McNaughton told Press Association Sport.

"There have been many discussions but we are hoping to make progress over the next couple of months, and there are still a number of candidates out there."

McNaughton will revert to his role as vice-chairman in a five-strong EPCR executive committee once the permanent independent chairman is appointed.

The former Ireland team manager had expected EPCR to ratify the new chairman as far back as October, but the process still rumbles on.

The new EPCR set-up is the fruit of two years of civil war across Europe, but has resulted in record TV revenue and more meritocratic qualification processes.

The Champions Cup has replaced the Heineken Cup, with the old governing body ERC rendered defunct this summer, one season behind schedule.

McNaughton confirmed part of the delay in appointing EPCR's new chairman centres around the hunt for a director general to compete that five-strong executive committee.

"The nominations committee has proposed to the board that we recruit a chairman and a director general at the same time," said McNaughton.

"What we'll concentrate on at the moment is the organisation of the new structure in Neuchatel and going through that process with staff.

"The new chairman is important, but there is other work we have to get done as well at the same time.

"It's important to ensure we build the right structure of the organisation in Neuchatel, and that must be step one.

"Step two then is what type of director general we aim for, and three, a chairman to complement the director general.

"Four or five of the ERC staff will be moving to Switzerland but the vast majority will not.

"There's no perfect scenario when staff have to choose between redundancy and moving from Dublin to Switzerland, but it has been our priority to ensure that process has been conducted as professionally as possible.

"And the ERC staff have shown extremely high professionalism in continuing to run the tournament this season."

McNaughton admitted European bosses must address fresh concerns over the second-tier Challenge Cup that has been hit with new criticism this season.

This year's Challenge Cup winners will not qualify automatically for next season's Champions Cup, and teams no longer drop down from the top to the second tier at the quarter-final stage.

Grenoble coach Bernard Jackman branded the Challenge Cup a "pointless competition", voicing general dissatisfaction that has forced a rethink among European bosses.

McNaughton said boosting Challenge Cup prize money will be discussed at next month's EPCR board meeting.

"There's a feeling out there that the Challenge Cup has lost something and that's something we have to address," said McNaughton.

"Increasing prize money may be one of the ways we could seek to look at this.

"Actually though there is already reward for the Challenge Cup winners that many people haven't realised.

"The winners of the Challenge Cup can still qualify for the Champions Cup play-offs if they haven't already done so through league position."

http://au.eurosport.com/rugby/wrangles- ... tory.shtml


It looks like its Peter Wheeler Mark II again!

The European competitions are important to the English clubs but nowhere near as fundamental to their business and rugby models as the European competitions are to the Pro 12 Unions. That is why the Pro 12 Unions had to compromise with the French and English clubs when they realised they weren't bluffing. If the English clubs couldn't play in a European competition with which they were satisfied with then they would have sought to replace it with something else. An expanded Premiership, an Anglo Welsh league or something like that. Without the European competitions the Irish provinces would have had no one decent to play against accept Glasgow and Ospreys and that would get pretty tiresome pretty quickly. It also wouldn't be commercially viable.

Sure there are teething problems with the new set up but the fundamental changes to the competitions have been accepted by the key stake holders. Meritocratic qualification and seedings, the BT TV deal, a 20 team competition, the clubs being treated as equal stake holders and a multiple sponsor sponsorship model. None of that is going to be rolled back on.

Personally I think the winners of the second tier competition should get an automatic place in the Champions Cup if they haven't already qualified otherwise there really isn't much to play for.

[Beckenham Wasp]

In terms of whether a European competition dominated by Toulon, Racing, Clermont and Racing and 1 or 2 of the English clubs would lose interest and value is questionable. Has the interest in Champions League soccer been massively effected by the dominance of the bigger countries since it was created? Do the Scots, Dutch, Portuguese, French, Serbs, Russians etc not care about it any more? Of course they do. Watching the best teams in Europe playing each other has an allure. The best team in Europe. Some of the best European games I have seen have been between French and Irish teams and just because I am English it doesn't mean I am not interested watching those games.

The Champions league has a broad entry level and still has mismatches like Celtic vs Barcalona. If it was just the top 4 from the 4 big leagues it would lose a lot of it's appeal to many Europeans. That said it would still be lucrative to the clubs as all there foreign support would still like to watch it.

Also on the point of dropping the competition to 16, do you not think the French teams would still be inclined to just throw in the towel after 2/3 defeats as they always do. You'd still more than likely end up with 3-4 teams with nothing but LBPs. Gloucester sent a reserve side to Thomond park last year.

Then there's the botched Challenge cup that nobody cares about. It's just a distraction from the league.

Whatever happened to the 3rd competition?

Well rugby isn't as broad based a sport as football in Europe. Just 6 top level countries if that. I wouldn't mind a 16 team competition but I am not passionately in favour of it. The one benefit of it would be that the second tier competition would be massively strengthened and become much more important. The weaker countries and teams would still have a decent competition to play in.

Also with 2 teams qualifying from each group of 4 there would be very few dead games with nothing at stake.