European Champions Cup [Most Improved]

[Made Of Ale]

Toulon are even scarier this season. I can only think of three plausible things that might stop them winning:
1) Away draw in the semis.
2) Clermont discovering a mental edge.
3) Toulouse having a very good day at the office.

[berniemac67]

Castres are putting on a comedy show.

[johng]

Wasps gone in for their 3rd try on 32 mins. You know what will happen. Probably before half time.

[blockhead]

4 tries for Wasps now before HT.
Bet JohnGs left testicle that we wont get a WBP against Castres.

[johng]

You're welcome to it. It is starting to pain me anyway

[Grumpy Old Man]

4 tries for Wasps now before HT.
Bet JohnGs left testicle that we wont get a WBP against Castres.

I'll see you, and raise you JohnGs right testicle.

[Toulon fan]

Castres are putting on a comedy show.

Castres are unfortunately sinking like the memory of their main sponsor Fabre Pharma Labs. Mister Fabre, one of biggest french billionnaires has involved a lot of his own money and its group as main sponsor the last 40 years, he deceased 2 years ago. Since then, the little Labs are diving on markets, 600 people will lose their jobs this year. And the signature at all costs of Sivivatu or Rory Kockott last season for more than €600.000 a year plus a forfeit clause to Toulon are bitter now.

You all wanted to see one of these french sugar daddies dying, here is one. There are chances Castres could join Biarritz in ProD2 next year.

[nc6000]

That result has Wasps right back in it now. If they beat Quins and us then they top the group.

[StrangeButBlue]

The order of the round 6 matches is going to be a factor.
Hard to figure out which group will get the chance to play last and know the points and try count required, same as every year except the suspicion will fall on a neuchtel conspiracy this time and not Dublin or Biarritz.

[footrush]

The order of the round 6 matches is going to be a factor.
Hard to figure out which group will get the chance to play last and know the points and try count required, same as every year except the suspicion will fall on a neuchtel conspiracy this time and not Dublin or Biarritz.

Anyone know if they are going to bother announcing the dates of these fixtures or just going to keep them to themselves ?.

[footrush]

The order of the round 6 matches is going to be a factor.
Hard to figure out which group will get the chance to play last and know the points and try count required, same as every year except the suspicion will fall on a neuchtel conspiracy this time and not Dublin or Biarritz.

Anyone know if they are going to bother announcing the dates of these fixtures or just going to keep them to themselves ?.

Some time this week.

[Lar]

Not sure this is the right thread but by this day next week we will know the make-up of the eight quarter finalists in the shiny new European Rugby Champions Cup and whilst the Warriors are not mathematically out of things yet it looks like Leinster (touching wood and not seeing any chickens around just at the minute) may be the only team from the Pro12 that might make it through to the quarters. It's looking like four French sides, three English and ourselves. It may possibly be no representation from the Pro12 at all.

I am not sure about a couple of the early years and the format changed a bit then also but I think this will be the smallest representation the Pro12 (or its prior incarnations) will have had in the last 8, certainly in say 15 years. Is this an accident of a poor bunch of Pro12 sides this particular season? Or is it that the English and French sides are so much more financially strong that they will dominate the knock-out stages for the foreseeable future?

If it becomes and Anglo-French shoot-out each season will the IRFU (or WRU, SRU etc...) be able to hold onto their better players thus making the system worse? But more importantly, will the public buy into a competition that isn't really European after all? Will it be a truly European competition if the teams from Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland never really make it out of their pools?

For my part I find Toulon an admirable club in that their fans are passionate and they do genuinely appear to be a club in touch with the area they are from that connects with the fans but the massive budget they have and the ability to attract not just one but 2 or 3 world class talents for every position on the pitch makes them impossible to admire in terms of what they have achieved. They may not win every season but they look strong favourites for a first three in a row this season.

Will this not become boring for the neutral after a while? The only clubs that will challenge them will be clubs that get the cheque books out and try to join them in outbidding them.

Football has gone that way. Real and Barca pay the most and buy the best in Spain. Ditto Bayern in Germany. PSG have spent huge amounts (although may be the exception given their form this season) in France, Monaco to a lesser extent. Italy will always be dominated by Juve and the big two from Milan (despite what Roma and the occasional other interlopers like Napoli and Lazio etc may think). In England Chelsea and Man City have hugely wealthy benefactors that have brought them to the top of the League and Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal have always had more money partly due to their historical success. But at least in football the Champions League will still be genuinely fought for each season by clubs from four or five different countries. It will still be followed by neutrals from other countries. Will a rivalry between English and French Clubs be enough to sustain the rugby equivalent though?

[Grumpy Old Man]

4 tries for Wasps now before HT.
Bet JohnGs left testicle that we wont get a WBP against Castres.

I'll see you, and raise you JohnGs right testicle.

Poor JohnG!

[blockhead]

4 tries for Wasps now before HT.
Bet JohnGs left testicle that we wont get a WBP against Castres.

I'll see you, and raise you JohnGs right testicle.

Poor JohnG!

OFF with his balls!

[johng]

But what if Lilo Lil wants kids too?

[Beckenham Wasp]

Not sure this is the right thread but by this day next week we will know the make-up of the eight quarter finalists in the shiny new European Rugby Champions Cup and whilst the Warriors are not mathematically out of things yet it looks like Leinster (touching wood and not seeing any chickens around just at the minute) may be the only team from the Pro12 that might make it through to the quarters. It's looking like four French sides, three English and ourselves. It may possibly be no representation from the Pro12 at all.

I am not sure about a couple of the early years and the format changed a bit then also but I think this will be the smallest representation the Pro12 (or its prior incarnations) will have had in the last 8, certainly in say 15 years. Is this an accident of a poor bunch of Pro12 sides this particular season? Or is it that the English and French sides are so much more financially strong that they will dominate the knock-out stages for the foreseeable future?

If it becomes and Anglo-French shoot-out each season will the IRFU (or WRU, SRU etc...) be able to hold onto their better players thus making the system worse? But more importantly, will the public buy into a competition that isn't really European after all? Will it be a truly European competition if the teams from Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland never really make it out of their pools?

For my part I find Toulon an admirable club in that their fans are passionate and they do genuinely appear to be a club in touch with the area they are from that connects with the fans but the massive budget they have and the ability to attract not just one but 2 or 3 world class talents for every position on the pitch makes them impossible to admire in terms of what they have achieved. They may not win every season but they look strong favourites for a first three in a row this season.

Will this not become boring for the neutral after a while? The only clubs that will challenge them will be clubs that get the cheque books out and try to join them in outbidding them.

Football has gone that way. Real and Barca pay the most and buy the best in Spain. Ditto Bayern in Germany. PSG have spent huge amounts (although may be the exception given their form this season) in France, Monaco to a lesser extent. Italy will always be dominated by Juve and the big two from Milan (despite what Roma and the occasional other interlopers like Napoli and Lazio etc may think). In England Chelsea and Man City have hugely wealthy benefactors that have brought them to the top of the League and Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal have always had more money partly due to their historical success. But at least in football the Champions League will still be genuinely fought for each season by clubs from four or five different countries. It will still be followed by neutrals from other countries. Will a rivalry between English and French Clubs be enough to sustain the rugby equivalent though?

Well I think you have answered your own question there. Soccer in nearly all the top leagues and in terms of the European Cup/Champions League has become much more processional than it used to be but the sport has continued to become richer and richer and more and more popular despite its predictability.

The same is likely to apply to rugby too. Toulon and Racing both have unlimited funding so should be permanent fixtures in the European knockout stages. Toulouse and Clermont have the rugby culture and the commercial strength in their own right to look after themselves. Beyond those 4 I don't think there is much to be scared of amongst the other French teams no matter how big their budgets. Castres and Montpieller, as the smaller French teams have tended to be, have been disinterested and pretty woeful. Maybe a Stade Francais or Bordeaux Begles could build themselves into genuine challengers can't guarantee regular qualification for the main competition.

In terms of the Pro 12 teams they will have to find a way of being able to compete. The World isn't going to stay still. The IRFU might well have to look into some form of private financing of the Provincial teams if they want them to remain competitive and be able to sign 2 or 3 quality foreign players each whilst still being able to retain the best Irish internationals. After all rugby is the biggest and most popular professional sport in Ireland and it pretty much has the winter season all to itself in terms of the domestic sporting market place. The interest and money from the private sector for the big 3 Provinces should be there if the IRFU wanted to go down that route.

All depends if the IRFU really cares about the Provinces in their own right or just views them as feeders for the national team.

[Tricky Dicky]

Not sure this is the right thread but by this day next week we will know the make-up of the eight quarter finalists in the shiny new European Rugby Champions Cup and whilst the Warriors are not mathematically out of things yet it looks like Leinster (touching wood and not seeing any chickens around just at the minute) may be the only team from the Pro12 that might make it through to the quarters. It's looking like four French sides, three English and ourselves. It may possibly be no representation from the Pro12 at all.

I am not sure about a couple of the early years and the format changed a bit then also but I think this will be the smallest representation the Pro12 (or its prior incarnations) will have had in the last 8, certainly in say 15 years. Is this an accident of a poor bunch of Pro12 sides this particular season? Or is it that the English and French sides are so much more financially strong that they will dominate the knock-out stages for the foreseeable future?

If it becomes and Anglo-French shoot-out each season will the IRFU (or WRU, SRU etc...) be able to hold onto their better players thus making the system worse? But more importantly, will the public buy into a competition that isn't really European after all? Will it be a truly European competition if the teams from Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland never really make it out of their pools?

For my part I find Toulon an admirable club in that their fans are passionate and they do genuinely appear to be a club in touch with the area they are from that connects with the fans but the massive budget they have and the ability to attract not just one but 2 or 3 world class talents for every position on the pitch makes them impossible to admire in terms of what they have achieved. They may not win every season but they look strong favourites for a first three in a row this season.

Will this not become boring for the neutral after a while? The only clubs that will challenge them will be clubs that get the cheque books out and try to join them in outbidding them.

Football has gone that way. Real and Barca pay the most and buy the best in Spain. Ditto Bayern in Germany. PSG have spent huge amounts (although may be the exception given their form this season) in France, Monaco to a lesser extent. Italy will always be dominated by Juve and the big two from Milan (despite what Roma and the occasional other interlopers like Napoli and Lazio etc may think). In England Chelsea and Man City have hugely wealthy benefactors that have brought them to the top of the League and Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal have always had more money partly due to their historical success. But at least in football the Champions League will still be genuinely fought for each season by clubs from four or five different countries. It will still be followed by neutrals from other countries. Will a rivalry between English and French Clubs be enough to sustain the rugby equivalent though?

PRL knew that by stacking the pool stages they'd be altering the odds in the favour of the English and French clubs. With the pools being tougher it's simple statistics that a country with 7 representatives is likely to have more group qualifiers than a country with 3. The money split up is also unfair imo. For me there should be some recognition that it's a competition between teams from different countries, and not just between individual clubs.

Having said that, Ulster are much weaker than they have been in ages and even with the new set-up Munster were a bit unlucky to get such a nightmare pool. It'll be a few years before it's apparent exactly what the new order means for the Irish sides

[simonokeeffe]

JohnG's balls out

[johng]

Going all the way back to the 2nd year of the comp in 1996/7 when the first quarter finals happened. There has always been representation from what are now the 3 Leagues. (Apart from the year the English teams did not compete)

The best year for the Celts was 2012 when Embra, Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff all made the knockouts with Leinster beating Ulster in the final and 3 Celtic teams in the semis. (This was arguably the year that sealed the fate of the HC as we knew it)

The worst year was 97/98 when only Cardiff made it. We have had Irish representation every year since.

F	E	C		
3	2	3	14
3	3	2	13
2	1	5	12
4	2	2	11
4	1	3	10
1	3	4	09
2	3	3	08
2	3	3	07
3	3	2	06
3	3	2	05
3	2	3	04
3	2	3	03
3	2	3	02
3	2	3	01
3	2	3	00
4	0	4	99
3	4	1	98
3	3	2	97

[Lar]

Going all the way back to the 2nd year of the comp in 1996/7 when the first quarter finals happened. There has always been representation from what are now the 3 Leagues. (Apart from the year the English teams did not compete)

The best year for the Celts was 2012 when Embra, Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff all made the knockouts with Leinster beating Ulster in the final and 3 Celtic teams in the semis. (This was arguably the year that sealed the fate of the HC as we knew it)

The worst year was 97/98 when only Cardiff made it. We have had Irish representation every year since.

F	E	C		
3	2	3	14
3	3	2	13
2	1	5	12
4	2	2	11
4	1	3	10
1	3	4	09
2	3	3	08
2	3	3	07
3	3	2	06
3	3	2	05
3	2	3	04
3	2	3	03
3	2	3	02
3	2	3	01
3	2	3	00
4	0	4	99
3	4	1	98
3	3	2	97

Also by 2012 Pro12 sides had won five of the last seven HECs. It does smack a bit of the English and French being fed up with Munster and Leinster, although Edinburgh making the semis and beating the holders Toulouse along the way may arguably have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Strange though that no one in England and France said then that the English and French teams would just have to find a way of being able to compete. No they just re-jigged the competition so as to give themselves greater financial muscle and make the playing field more uneven. Mind you Toulon demonstrated in the last two years of the competition that money certainly provided an ability to go the distance.

I do worry though that it will be very boring if it becomes an annual Anglo French knock out competition with the other nations just there to determine the draw for the quarter finals.