Concussion

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Concussion

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 22nd, 2015, 3:58 pm

Couldn't see a thread on this but think it's probably about time that there was one.

I see Mike Brown is still suffering from headaches and is likely to be out for the season. Obviously Declan Fitzpatrick had to retire last week and many others have issues with it too. I know of one Leinster player who is suffering from minor symptoms despite not taking any big impacts recently. Tragically, a club player in Australia died recently when his head connected with someone's shoulder as he tried to make a tackle.

There was a big discussion about it on Against The Head the other day and Quinlan kept saying that education was the key, but that seemed to be more to do with how to look after players once they've been injured than preventing it. He did mention cracking down on leading with the forearm etc but other than that they were short on ideas.

It seems like there's an incident in nearly every game now, so just wondering what people would do to try and help eradicate it?

Being harsh on leading with the forearm is a no brainer for me.
I would also penalise players for tackling with their head on the wrong side.
Given how bad things have become, I'd be tempted to change the choke tackle rule. I think it has been amended recently to good effect (there seems to be more of an opportunity to turn it into a tackle) but I'd consider changing it further so that you don't win a turn over for doing it, think that would encourage lower tackles.
The hardest thing is probably to try and open up more space on the field to reduce the number of collisions. I suggested before that refs could allow for more of a contest on the deck but could see how that could backfire too.

Overall I think there's great progress on this but it seems like there aren't actually any changes being made to reduce the number of incidents. Perhaps it would be good to trial some new ideas after the World Cup?
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Re: Concussion

Postby simonokeeffe » April 22nd, 2015, 7:48 pm

Brown is interesting case (medically) as the symptoms seem to have had a very late onset

Medical treatment has improved but simple rule of if a player loses consciousness he has to be removed wouldnt hurt but dont think thats as much of an issue as it used to be

Feeds into general improvement of the game but reducing the number of subs that can be brought on may help as players focus more on fitness than bulk and you cant start 5 or 6 forwards who know they dont have to last 80 mins
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Concussion

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 22nd, 2015, 8:40 pm

Think you mentioned the sub thing before and I wasn't in favour of it because I reckoned we'd see fewer Mike Rosseseses around but actually I agree with you now. Don't think I'd do it at all levels but certainly in the pro game I now think it's a good idea.
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Re: Concussion

Postby simonokeeffe » April 23rd, 2015, 12:53 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Think you mentioned the sub thing before and I wasn't in favour of it because I reckoned we'd see fewer Mike Rosseseses around but actually I agree with you now. Don't think I'd do it at all levels but certainly in the pro game I now think it's a good idea.


nothing stopping teams having the odd warhorse but even limiting it to maximum of say 5 or 6 out of 8 subs makes coaches much hesitant, helps smaller teams/nations too and stops caps being given out willy nilly too
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Concussion

Postby leinster4life13 » April 23rd, 2015, 9:52 am

Contact sport, the odd concussion is inevitable, build up neck muscles, teach correct technique and after that all you can do is make sure they are whipped off and taken care of so they dont get a second. There might be an argument for some people being more prone to concussion, and they should just quit if they value long term neural health over cash, but it is their choice at the end of the day. There is nothing you can really do imo.
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Re: Concussion

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 23rd, 2015, 11:31 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32420600

"The NFL expects 6,000 of its approximately 20,000 retired players to develop Alzheimer's disease or dementia in their lives."

Wow...
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Re: Concussion

Postby Flash Gordon » April 23rd, 2015, 1:03 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32420600

"The NFL expects 6,000 of its approximately 20,000 retired players to develop Alzheimer's disease or dementia in their lives."

Wow...


That's a staggering stat if true. My God.
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Re: Concussion

Postby leinster4life13 » April 23rd, 2015, 1:50 pm

Facts very light on the ground(publicly at least), its actually quite worrying that they have settled so easily/readily, hints at it being a much larger problem imo. How many of that 6k is natural propensity?

A good thing to look at would be South African rugby players from the 90's early 2000's developing neurological disorders, the likes of Joost,Venter and a few others, I used to think it was related to using real growth hormone as opposed to chemically synthesised stuff, but its probably concussion related, there was also that New zealand outhalf/full back who played in England for a good bit, forget his name and club, but he came down with a similar thing to Joost.
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Re: Concussion

Postby simonokeeffe » April 23rd, 2015, 2:29 pm

leinster4life13 wrote:Facts very light on the ground(publicly at least), its actually quite worrying that they have settled so easily/readily, hints at it being a much larger problem imo. How many of that 6k is natural propensity?

A good thing to look at would be South African rugby players from the 90's early 2000's developing neurological disorders, the likes of Joost,Venter and a few others, I used to think it was related to using real growth hormone as opposed to chemically synthesised stuff, but its probably concussion related, there was also that New zealand outhalf/full back who played in England for a good bit, forget his name and club, but he came down with a similar thing to Joost.


there hasnt been any hard evidence found though linking head injuries to Motor Neurone Disease

leinster4life13 wrote:Contact sport, the odd concussion is inevitable, build up neck muscles, teach correct technique and after that all you can do is make sure they are whipped off and taken care of so they dont get a second. There might be an argument for some people being more prone to concussion, and they should just quit if they value long term neural health over cash, but it is their choice at the end of the day. There is nothing you can really do imo.


dont think this would help head trauma too much but is quite important in general (in relation to injury)
you get a lot of amateur era hacks like Franno and Hook saying young props spend too much time in a gym but front rowers need a certain level of muscular development for their own safety
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Concussion

Postby All Blacks nil » April 23rd, 2015, 2:51 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32420600

"The NFL expects 6,000 of its approximately 20,000 retired players to develop Alzheimer's disease or dementia in their lives."

Wow...


"Expects"

this is a scary thought.

this isn't a scientist claiming something. this is the NFL "expecting" such numbers.

Why would they say something so negative about their game/business unless the figures reflect it.

There is obviously a certain percentage of the older generation affected by dementia and basically an ex NFL pro has a 30% chance of suffering from Alzheimers
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Re: Concussion

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 23rd, 2015, 2:59 pm

I'd imagine its a fairly well researched number, the payouts have to have been calculated based on the cause and effect of what happened/will happen.

The NFl seems to be different to rugby in that they covered up potential problems so it's really the link between concussion and dementia etc that interests me. Actually it's interested/scared me ever since I met a guy a few years ago who had dementia. I assumed he was well into his 70s, turned out he was in his early 50s and used to be a boxer.
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Re: Concussion

Postby Vamos los azules » April 23rd, 2015, 8:19 pm

My mother is one of 8 siblings aged late 60s to mid 80s. 7 perfectly sound of mind, 1 with dementia. The one with dementia played rugby at a decent enough club level for years and was the only one of them to play the game. It has certainly got our family wondering if it is a legacy from concussions. And if that's someone who played years ago before collisions got as big as they have, then heaven only knows what is coming with the current pros.
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Re: Concussion

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 27th, 2015, 12:01 pm

I recorded the Northampton - Saracens match on Saturday and at one stage a Saracens prop collapsed after a scrum, started having a fit on the ground and then played on.
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Re: Concussion

Postby simonokeeffe » April 27th, 2015, 2:25 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I recorded the Northampton - Saracens match on Saturday and at one stage a Saracens prop collapsed after a scrum, started having a fit on the ground and then played on.


that is effin crazy
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Concussion

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 25th, 2015, 7:13 pm

I hadn't heard about this before. A 17 year old girl died in Canada a couple of years back after she suffered three concussions in a week. Awful stuff.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ro ... -1.3086191
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Re: Concussion

Postby simonokeeffe » September 15th, 2015, 11:17 am

Jonathan Thomas forced to retire due to head injuries, was diagnosed with epilepsy (from head knocks which I didnt know was possible) last season
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Concussion

Postby jezzer » September 15th, 2015, 2:56 pm

Big WIll Smith movie set to air soon in the US called Concussion, about the NFL and it's handling of brain injuries. Expect the spotlight to get thrown on rugby after too, esp if there are a few notable concussions during the RWC.
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Re: Concussion

Postby Logorrhea » September 15th, 2015, 3:53 pm

and rightly so. Rugby has mismanaged concussion for years now. While we are in a much better place now I really fear for the 1st generation of professional players that have played the game with little to no protection from it.
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Re: Concussion

Postby Ruckedtobits » September 15th, 2015, 5:47 pm

Throughout rugby pro era, the main culprits were players themselves who refused to describe to team docs agnd phsios how they agctually felt.

ROG in re ent interview and his book vividly describes how "the culture of the time" wouldn't let players acknowledge how bad they felt - if there was no break or no blood.

Conversations with countless players andmatch Doctors who themselves played the game, all confirmedthis 'culture'.

Thank goodness the balance has now shifted to common sense
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Re: Concussion

Postby Logorrhea » September 16th, 2015, 9:19 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:Throughout rugby pro era, the main culprits were players themselves who refused to describe to team docs agnd phsios how they agctually felt.


Of course they didn't. Appearing to be fragile or weak would risk their position in the team, a future contract and their careers. No one in the backroom team was sympathetic to the issue of concussion so the player had little option.

While awareness is something they are working on with the players themselves the majority of controls that have been put in place still aim to protect the player from themselves by taking them out of the decision making process entirely.
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