Connacht Rugby 2015 / 2016

[Dave Cahill]

Both were developed and improved by Connacht thats undeniable.

Leinster have really struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. I dont underrate the potential of some of the backs in the leinster academy but im realistic about leinsters ability to develop those players into being 1st choice backs given their record since 2010.

No, Leinster haven't struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. Leinster had one of the best backlines in the entire history of rugby between 2009 and 2014 and it was hard to break into a (sample) backline of Reddan, Sexton, Fitzgerald, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Nacewa and Kearney, with Boss, Madigan, McFadden, O'Malley, Kearney jr, Conway on the bench. Any point you make that doesn't acknowledge this is competely invalid.

Now, if you want to discuss the development of high quality backs since, say, 2014, then you might be able to make a point.

[goreyguy]

Both were developed and improved by Connacht thats undeniable.

Leinster have really struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. I dont underrate the potential of some of the backs in the leinster academy but im realistic about leinsters ability to develop those players into being 1st choice backs given their record since 2010.

No, Leinster haven't struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. Leinster had one of the best backlines in the entire history of rugby between 2009 and 2014 and it was hard to break into a (sample) backline of Reddan, Sexton, Fitzgerald, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Nacewa and Kearney, with Boss, Madigan, McFadden, O'Malley, Kearney jr, Conway on the bench. Any point you make that doesn't acknowledge this is competely invalid.

Now, if you want to discuss the developement of high quality backs since, say, 2014, then you might be able to make a point.

The point applies in 2014 but stretches back to 2010.. players who made their debut after 2010 and were meant to be developing below that backline failed to develop into high quality backs for Leinster. Macken, Reid, Cooney, Conway, Hudson, Coghlan-Murray, Boyle, Sheridan, O'Shea.

I've never said there wasn't a group of high quality backs during out peak years of course there was, but there has been a failure in the organisation to develop the next generation to replace that group..

None of the backs through the academy since 2010 have developed into 1st choice players for leinster until Ringrose, and as I said previously he is an outlier and is not reflective of the academy systems ability to develop high quality backs.

Maybe Luke McGrath will join RIngrose but the jury is very much out there and I suppose it will come down to his ability to beat out a 3rd string scrumhalf from New Zealand. Given their recent record, should we be confident leinster will be able to produce another generation of great backs.. I don't think so. Luckily we've signed Henshaw from Connacht, I wonder will we be targeting even more Connacht or Ulster backs in the future, along with project players and NIQ's.

[artaneboy]

Both were developed and improved by Connacht thats undeniable.

Leinster have really struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. I dont underrate the potential of some of the backs in the leinster academy but im realistic about leinsters ability to develop those players into being 1st choice backs given their record since 2010.

No, Leinster haven't struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. Leinster had one of the best backlines in the entire history of rugby between 2009 and 2014 and it was hard to break into a (sample) backline of Reddan, Sexton, Fitzgerald, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Nacewa and Kearney, with Boss, Madigan, McFadden, O'Malley, Kearney jr, Conway on the bench. Any point you make that doesn't acknowledge this is competely invalid.

Now, if you want to discuss the developement of high quality backs since, say, 2014, then you might be able to make a point.

The point applies in 2014 but stretches back to 2010.. players who made their debut after 2010 and were meant to be developing below that backline failed to develop into high quality backs for Leinster. Macken, Reid, Cooney, Conway, Hudson, Coghlan-Murray, Boyle, Sheridan, O'Shea.

I've never said there wasn't a group of high quality backs during out peak years of course there was, but there has been a failure in the organisation to develop the next generation to replace that group..

None of the backs through the academy since 2010 have developed into 1st choice players for leinster until Ringrose, and as I said previously he is an outlier and is not reflective of the academy systems ability to develop high quality backs.

Maybe Luke McGrath will join RIngrose but the jury is very much out there and I suppose it will come down to his ability to beat out a 3rd string scrumhalf from New Zealand. Given their recent record, should we be confident leinster will be able to produce another generation of great backs.. I don't think so. Luckily we've signed Henshaw from Connacht, I wonder will we be targeting even more Connacht or Ulster backs in the future, along with project players and NIQ's.

The man has a point. They seem to go from being eternally promising to shipped out as not up to spec- or some Conway and others ship themselves out! Now we had some great "bed blockers" in there, who no one would shift. But we've had our share of journeymen too... Just saying!

[Dave Cahill]

I've never said there wasn't a group of high quality backs during out peak years of course there was, but there has been a failure in the organisation to develop the next generation to replace that group..

It raises two questions. Firstly, was the raw talent there? Secondly, was it considered a priority?

To take the second question first, I can't be sure that it was. I think more importance was put on developing forwards in general and front row options in particular. The modern game dictates that a squad needs a bare minimum of 5 props (two each side and a switch) and three hookers. We've gone from being a province that always had 'some' good props to being a province that has in the last number of years produced a significant number. McGrath, Dooley, Byrne, O'Connell, Furlong and Moore have come through in this period. On top of this the Leinster squads, senior and academy, are jammed with back row players which is part by design (its an extremely attritional position) and in part by...

...the raw talent available. A lot of guys make it into the academy and based on expectations created by their schoolboy careers people can't believe that they don't make it into the senior side - but that isn't a problem specific to Leinster, or Ireland or even Rugby. The world and the Astro Soccer League is littered with guys who were good enough to get a foot in the door of professional sport as academy/apprentice/college/whatever players but didn't have what it took to make it out the other side. Even the guys who do make, only a small percentage stay at, or supercede, the level of the outfit they join, most end up dropping down levels to play for lower division sides, or CFL or Munster. Thats because its really really difficult, even with a huge intake of really talented players to convert that raw meat into a tasty burger. Look at a couple of the guys you mentioned earlier, Macken and Conway. Guys who were superstars of schools cup rugby and who generated a huge amount of excitement and expectation when they entered the senior ranks - they made it out the other side just about, but have since dropped down a level. Hudson and SCM also. Its not like they ended up playing for clubs that we would (however fancifully) consider to be at our level, so its not that we really missed a trick - they just weren't good enough in the end as adult professional rugby players at the point that they exited the academy system. Like I say, this isn't a problem specific to this country or this sport, its just highlighted because it is our country, province and sport.

Is there, I wonder, a correlation between the signicantly lower levels of expectation around forwards and what appears to me at least to be a greater production success rate

[leinsterforever]

Both were developed and improved by Connacht thats undeniable.

Leinster have really struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. I dont underrate the potential of some of the backs in the leinster academy but im realistic about leinsters ability to develop those players into being 1st choice backs given their record since 2010.

Fine, but don't keep blaming the Leinster Academy and underage systems. The fact is that a a lot of the Connacht backs came through the Leinster underage system. If the Leinster coach is unable or unwilling to take what the the Academy delivers and develop it further then the failure can hardly be put on the academy

[simonokeeffe]

Matt Healy was an AIL scrumhalf

Fair play to Carolan or Elwood or whoever it was for seeing his potential as a winger

Tom Brady was a last round draft pick in the NFL

some guys slip through all kinds of nets, some guys develop late, it happens

[goreyguy]

I've never said there wasn't a group of high quality backs during out peak years of course there was, but there has been a failure in the organisation to develop the next generation to replace that group..

It raises two questions. Firstly, was the raw talent there? Secondly, was it considered a priority?

To take the second question first, I can't be sure that it was. I think more importance was put on developing forwards in general and front row options in particular. The modern game dictates that a squad needs a bare minimum of 5 props (two each side and a switch) and three hookers. We've gone from being a province that always had 'some' good props to being a province that has in the last number of years produced a significant number. McGrath, Dooley, Byrne, O'Connell, Furlong and Moore have come through in this period. On top of this the Leinster squads, senior and academy, are jammed with back row players which is part by design (its an extremely attritional position) and in part by...

...the raw talent available. A lot of guys make it into the academy and based on expectations created by their schoolboy careers people can't believe that they don't make it into the senior side - but that isn't a problem specific to Leinster, or Ireland or even Rugby. The world and the Astro Soccer League is littered with guys who were good enough to get a foot in the door of professional sport as academy/apprentice/college/whatever players but didn't have what it took to make it out the other side. Even the guys who do make, only a small percentage stay at, or supercede, the level of the outfit they join, most end up dropping down levels to play for lower division sides, or CFL or Munster. Thats because its really really difficult, even with a huge intake of really talented players to convert that raw meat into a tasty burger. Look at a couple of the guys you mentioned earlier, Macken and Conway. Guys who were superstars of schools cup rugby and who generated a huge amount of excitement and expectation when they entered the senior ranks - they made it out the other side just about, but have since dropped down a level. Hudson and SCM also. Its not like they ended up playing for clubs that we would (however fancifully) consider to be at our level, so its not that we really missed a trick - they just weren't good enough in the end as adult professional rugby players at the point that they exited the academy system. Like I say, this isn't a problem specific to this country or this sport, its just highlighted because it is our country, province and sport.

Is there, I wonder, a correlation between the signicantly lower levels of expectation around forwards and what appears to me at least to be a greater production success rate

It's a failure of taking the raw talent and developing it.. Connacht have taken players considered not good enough by leinster and developed them effectively into good rugby players.. when was the last time leinster did that with a back in the academy? Dave Kearney?

There may have been less raw talent being produced before that but that's another concern..why is the raw atheltic talent at underage level in the schools and clubs not being developed and reaching academy level?

If there wasn't an emphasis on developing backs, that again is a failure by leinster rugby.. did they think they'd just magically replace the backs who were getting near retirement?

It's all about player development as both an athlete and a rugby player, there has been failure at every level of leinster rugby when it comes to developing backs this decade.. there is plenty of raw talent in the province, that's undeniable to me.

[goreyguy]

Both were developed and improved by Connacht thats undeniable.

Leinster have really struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. I dont underrate the potential of some of the backs in the leinster academy but im realistic about leinsters ability to develop those players into being 1st choice backs given their record since 2010.

Fine, but don't keep blaming the Leinster Academy and underage systems. The fact is that a a lot of the Connacht backs came through the Leinster underage system. If the Leinster coach is unable or unwilling to take what the the Academy delivers and develop it further then the failure can hardly be put on the academy

But is the academy failing to develop the backs in the 3 years they are in the academy setup?
Is the academy overlooking players that they shouldn't be? Healy, Niyi, Hart, Robb?
Is the underage system not developing the raw talent in the system to produce better players for the academy system to select from?
Is the senior setup failing to take players developed by the academy and developing them further and giving them the right development opportunities with the senior team to enable them to reach their potential?
Is there a skill deficit in leinster rugby?
Is there an athlete deficit?

[leinsterforever]

Both were developed and improved by Connacht thats undeniable.

Leinster have really struggled to develop high quality backs since 2010. I dont underrate the potential of some of the backs in the leinster academy but im realistic about leinsters ability to develop those players into being 1st choice backs given their record since 2010.

Fine, but don't keep blaming the Leinster Academy and underage systems. The fact is that a a lot of the Connacht backs came through the Leinster underage system. If the Leinster coach is unable or unwilling to take what the the Academy delivers and develop it further then the failure can hardly be put on the academy

But is the academy failing to develop the backs in the 3 years they are in the academy setup?
Is the academy overlooking players that they shouldn't be? Healy, Niyi, Hart, Robb?
Is the underage system not developing the raw talent in the system to produce better players for the academy system to select from?
Is the senior setup failing to take players developed by the academy and developing them further and giving them the right development opportunities with the senior team to enable them to reach their potential?
Is there a skill deficit in leinster rugby?
Is there an athlete deficit?

- Hard to tell. Healy wasn't the player he is now when he first started playing for Connacht. If Kelleher, say, was playing under the Connacht coaches he could very well look like a star, and that would make it look as if the Academy had done a really good job. One thing I would say is that the Academy players, by-and-large, are good tacklers technically, so that's a plus point for the Academy

- Probably, but spaces are limited and people are always going to slip through the net

- I don't really know. I wouldn't have thought so

- In the backs I would say almost definitely

- Probably. Pat Lam and Dave Ellis's strategy for skill improvement looks like the model to copy

- Possibly? Would it be worth investing in a sprint coach to make the best of the athletes we have? Most of the Wasps players are coached by Margot Wells, wife of 1980 Olympic 100m champion Allan Wells

[simonokeeffe]

"It's a failure of taking the raw talent and developing it.. Connacht have taken players considered not good enough by leinster and developed them effectively into good rugby players.. when was the last time leinster did that with a back in the academy? Dave Kearney?"



seriously, you need to start going to the matches

[goreyguy]

"It's a failure of taking the raw talent and developing it.. Connacht have taken players considered not good enough by leinster and developed them effectively into good rugby players.. when was the last time leinster did that with a back in the academy? Dave Kearney?"



seriously, you need to start going to the matches

again you need to read,

Ringrose is an outlier, who was ready for senior rugby very early in his career. He is not an example of taking a raw talent and developing him over the course of three years while in the academy.

Leinster can't expect the underage system to develop a player of that high quality very often, it needs to take the raw talent that is developed by the underage system and develop and improve it while in the academy so that there is quality backs produced for the senior team. That has not been happening.

[simonokeeffe]

so he was ready for pro rugby the day he left school?

and to your list of batsh*t reasons for not giving the academy credit such as players switching position not counting we can now ad if the player was really good when he came in

he wasnt raw enough, that is some logic gymnastics

[simonokeeffe]

in more corporeal matters Carty is training fully this week, Heenan out for the remainder of the season

[goreyguy]

so he was ready for pro rugby the day he left school?

and to your list of batsh*t reasons for not giving the academy credit such as players switching position not counting we can now ad if the player was really good when he came in

he wasnt raw enough, that is some logic gymnastics

he was ready for pro rugby on a skill level the minute he joined the academy as a 19 year old, he just needed to develop physically, which is what he is still doing.

Again I've noted that until this year with Ringrose, Leinster had been unable to develop backs that became 1st choice, when there was a need for them to do that, this is undeniable. Give credit to them for Ringrose, that's fine, then they need to take critiscim for all the other backs they failed to develop into 1st choice.

The academy cannot rely on the underage setup to produce a Ringrose type, they need to be able to take players who are not quite on that level and develop them into viable 1st choice backs for Leinster, I ask again when last did they do that?

Also Matt Healy was playing on the wing for Lansdowne when he was recruited by Connacht, and they've developed him since.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Your constant use of the word "failure" and the variations of it are infuriating.

You act like making a player good enough for pro level is simply a matter of a coach drilling information into them. It's like you think Mick Dawson sits down with the academy guys every month to ask if the players are ready yet and if they're not then make sure that task is completed in time for the next meeting. Some of them aren't good enough, some of them had too much competition, and some of them who made it elsewhere are deeply flawed. You can't continue to ignore those aspects and the fact that we were so successful in that period you're talking about and provided so many players for that period and continue to call it a failure. It's nonsense.

Similarly, you can't just keep criticising from the sideline. If you're going to moan constantly about this every few weeks then it might be an idea to come up with solutions instead of just saying they need to do better.

[goreyguy]

Your constant use of the word "failure" and the variations of it are infuriating.

You act like making a player good enough for pro level is simply a matter of a coach drilling information into them. It's like you think Mick Dawson sits down with the academy guys every month to ask if the players are ready yet and if they're not then make sure that task is completed in time for the next meeting. Some of them aren't good enough, some of them had too much competition, and some of them who made it elsewhere are deeply flawed. You can't continue to ignore those aspects and the fact that we were so successful in that period you're talking about and provided so many players for that period and continue to call it a failure. It's nonsense.

Similarly, you can't just keep criticising from the sideline. If you're going to moan constantly about this every few weeks then it might be an idea to come up with solutions instead of just saying they need to do better.

It's not nonsense, the academies job is to provide first choice players for the senior team, in recent years it has failed to do that in the backs. Not managing to develop any 1st choice backs in several years until Ringrose appeared. When there was a need to.

That's reflective in the team and how the backs have been playing, the lack of pace in the backs, the reliance on overseas signings and players in their 30's.

When the backs in their 30's leave: Sexton, Kearney, Boss, Reddan, Kirchner, Nacewa, plus McFadden soon and Fitzgerald not much longer after, Leinster will need to replace these players with leinster developed backs.. what suggests they'll be able to do that based on their performance this decade and especially in recent years.

You keep saying "players weren't good enough", why weren't they good enough? Matt Healy wasn't good enough to get into the academy, same with Niyi Adeolokun.. look what good coaching and development did for them.. if only the backs around leinster in recent times could have gotten similar coaching and been allowed develop and reach their potential. Maybe Leinster wouldn't be signing project player backs or rugby league players or taking players from other provinces to replace the old guard who are leaving.

I'll write what I want. Thank you.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Again you've just ignored the flaws those guys have, Healy and Niyi are terrible defenders and weak in a other areas too. They're not perfect players by any means.

Not sure where that last comment came from but I think, and I say this genuinely, that neither of us should reply to the other from now on. We just piss each other off too much, I've already been warned (unfairly IMO) for comments directed to you, and I'm sure others are bored of our interactions.

[jezzer]

Dave is right.

Leinster time, money and effort into young players can only go so far. There's no doubt in my mind that goin back a number of years (even before Route 6'6"!) a higher priority was put on prop, lock (and maybe scrum half) as positions needing serious pipeline development than the other positions. With some justification too. Before we started the cupboard was very bare. The result? Toner, McGrath, Furlong, Dooley, Kearney, Marshall, Beirne, Molony, Byrne x 2, Burke-Flynn, Tracy and others. It's a pretty good haul. We finally produced a few half-decent scrum halves in Cooney, McGrath and Nick.

I imagine there was an element of complacency/arrogance about the rest of the back positions - the fabled Dublin Schools pipeline will always spit out little BODs every year. The truth is there haven't been that many special talents in the back positions. Madigan (depending on where you sit), Ringrose, O'Malley maybe. You couldn't say the Academy has excelled itself in developing what talent was given to them in the outside backs, but the talent it got hasn't been stellar either.

And it's not like the backs that did come out were lacking match opportunities. The Leinster A team that has won a hatful of B&I Cups was stocked constantly with Academy backs. They've performed well at that level, but as Dave said not that many have really stepped up. Pro 12 teams have always had up and coming centres and wingers in it. Often halfbacks too, during test windows. Fullback is maybe the only position where you could say Kearney, Isa and Kirchner have basically deprived any avenue for development. Even then, Conway and Madigan got some games there.

The skills levels all round in the province seem to have dropped. I'd have thought Girve and Murphy had enough apprenticeship in a province that vlaued skills over just about everything that this wouldn't happen. But it has. Our skill levels were always top of the league, even when results weren't. We might be top of the league now, but the skills levels aren't even playoff calibre.

But the Academy has proven with props and locks it can fill a dire need. Hopefully they can repeat the trick when our good backs quit.

[Dave Cahill]

You keep saying "players weren't good enough", why weren't they good enough? Matt Healy wasn't good enough to get into the academy, same with Niyi Adeolokun.. look what good coaching and development did for them.. if only the backs around leinster in recent times could have gotten similar coaching and been allowed develop and reach their potential. Maybe Leinster wouldn't be signing project player backs or rugby league players or taking players from other provinces to replace the old guard who are leaving.

I'll write what I want. Thank you.

Your entire premise is based upon the ability to see the future though and without that it is completely unworkable

Lets say there are 50 secondary schools affiliated with the Leinster Branch

10 backs per school senior team (7 starters plus we'll say three on the bench and each school has one team only) - thats 500 backs

There are over 60 clubs affliated with the branch

10 backs per club u18 side (as above)- thats 600 backs

1100 backs around Leinster in recent times.

You have to filter them somehow and thats where guys get cut. You can't afford to deliver professional or professional developmental coaching to a thousand guys!

If as a result of being cut they up their game/cop on/develop late, thats all great and all, but no one was tearing their hair out at the injustice dealt to either Matt or Niyi at the time. Even by Niyis own admission he wasn't taking rugby seriously and was playing as much football and soccer as he was rugby.

[goreyguy]

Again you've just ignored the flaws those guys have, Healy and Niyi are terrible defenders and weak in a other areas too. They're not perfect players by any means.

Not sure where that last comment came from but I think, and I say this genuinely, that neither of us should reply to the other from now on. We just piss each other off too much, I've already been warned (unfairly IMO) for comments directed to you, and I'm sure others are bored of our interactions.

I don't take the internet seriously enough to be pissed off about what you say to me on here, amused maybe. But by all means don't reply to me in the future.

Anyway it's amazing that such weak defenders were able to keep leinster out in galway, but then maybe that's more of a reflection on how poor our backs are in attack. I've never called them perfect players by the way, just players who have been developed by Connacht when deemed not good enough by Leinster. We both know if leinster had tried to develop them they'd likely have failed to do so as effectively, I wonder what the connacht academy & coaches could do with the raw talent the leinster academy recruits every year. I doubt as many of them would have turned out to be "not good enough"