Munster 2015/2016

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby simonokeeffe » June 5th, 2016, 10:23 am

Not_Today wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:
Being able to use the UL facility is good, but theres an argument Cork would have been a better location for training base


There is that but if UCC had the new Training Centre they'd be posters saying that's wrong as it should be in UL.

Moaners will moan.


that they will, my opinion was have all the games in Limerick but the admin & training in Cork to keep the province wide thing going

Xanthippe wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:The ticket sales bit is just interesting/breaks a stereotype


Have a feeling that putting that ticket sales stat in their report was actually someone being REALLY clever. Bet they'll use it in fixture negotiations as a reason why they should never have to play on Friday night or Sunday afternoon. Expect it to be put forward that because 70% of support comes from outside Limetick they should be allowed to play all their home games at 7pm on Saturday!!


genius idea if they did, and why not, handier for away fans too most of the time, Ulster get heaps of games on friday nights when they want them, bigger crowds is better for so many reasons
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Jackie Brown » June 5th, 2016, 10:59 am

At least they own their grounds (although they should only have 1). Look at the EPL, hard to generate a profit when renting. Munster will come good again.

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Dave Cahill » June 5th, 2016, 12:12 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:At least they own their grounds (although they should only have 1).


No, they don't - thats something that they don't seem to realise. They own 50% of the stadium company and that 50% is heavily mortgaged with the IRFU taking over its running. They haven't owned Thomond Park since the late 80s when the Munster Branch got into financial difficulties and the IRFU had to step in and buy the ground from them to clear their debts (sound familiar?). When the Thomond Park Stadium Company (TPSC) was set up, it was the medium through which the IRFU gave Munster 15million to finish the ground. This loan was secured against Munster Rugbys 50% of the TPSC. It was to be paid back almost immediately when the naming rights were sold. They decided not to sell the naming rights,and the debt became permanant. At the same time, a deal was done that if Munster met their payments on the loan, then the IRFU would offer them the option to purchase the freehold on Thomond Park at a favorable valuation once the loan was paid off. From year one however, not a single payment has been made in full and on time.

I'm not even sure that they own Musgrave Park either, though I don't know for certain. The Sportsgrounds are owned by a local trust, the RDS by the RDS, Donnybrook by the Leinster Branch and Ravenhill by the IRFU to complete the set.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Jackie Brown » June 5th, 2016, 10:06 pm

Munster and the IRFU are one and the same organisation

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Dave Cahill » June 5th, 2016, 10:46 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:Munster and the IRFU are one and the same organisation

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By that logic Leinster own ravenhill

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Jackie Brown » June 6th, 2016, 8:37 am

They do, since they are the IRFU. The provinces are all constituent parts of the organisation. This whole loan nonsense is just a way of pushing money around, possibly for tax reasons, who knows.

Munster branch needed help paying their debts, the wider IRFU stepped in to help. To charge interest to itself is nonsensical.

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Jackie Brown » June 6th, 2016, 8:39 am

And my comment stands, if you don't own your ground you will find it hard to compete. Good job the IRFU ploughed all that money into Donneybrook.

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby COYBIB » June 6th, 2016, 3:40 pm

Jackie, there is a distinction between the IRFU and branches, just like RBS is a major bank, but owns Ulster Bank, Natwest etc., those companies have their own assets that are part of that branch of the bank and displayed on their P&L and Balance Sheet.

Also, the IRFU "owning" a branch isn't entirely accurate, they fund the provinces and have control over most aspects of the provinces, but the provinces are separate legal entities and in theory if they were to "break" from the IRFU for example, the assets under each legal entity would remain owned by that legal entity.

Is mostly a moot point, but the IRFU have full ownership over Lansdowne Road (with the FAI having a 60 year lease or so with no rent payments as part of the joint funding), they own Thomond Park but I believe as Dave said, Munster have a 50% share in the stadium on the grounds of Thomond Park, they outright own 100% of Ravenhill, paid for by the British Government (thank you very much), and the only two domestic stadia outside the IRFU owndership are the Sportsground and RDS, which are privately owned. Of unused stadia, Leinster own Donnybrook outright.

Why Leinster aren't investing this massive investment they're attracting to the RDS for stadium redevelopment into giving Donnybrook another blast is beyond me, there is a way and there is room for two very large north and south stands and something can definitely be done with the far side of the ground. It's a shame. But if they're not going to use it, Leinster should sell Donnybrook, probably to the IRFU, at least the main pitch and stand, and sell the back pitch to developers. That could bring in a cool €80-€100m for the province to live off. Or look at business models such as Wasps, rugby clubs need to operate like large corporations now, not just rugby clubs, and operate things like hotels, casinos etc.

Leinster have the assets, they're just not using them at all correctly.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby paddyor » June 6th, 2016, 4:43 pm

Jackie Brown wrote:They do, since they are the IRFU. The provinces are all constituent parts of the organisation. This whole loan nonsense is just a way of pushing money around, possibly for tax reasons, who knows.

Munster branch needed help paying their debts, the wider IRFU stepped in to help. To charge interest to itself is nonsensical.

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I very much doubt it. The IRFU and the branches are likely companies limited by guarantee(just checked, the branches are). The reason they're separtate entities is to protect the IRFU and by extension the other branches from any exposure to the branches financial obligations. In this case that would be the stadium debt, which though it did absorb it was under no obligation to do so. More generally it protects the union from gross mismanagement at the branches

It's not nonsensical to charge interest to itself. It's quite common for capital to attract an interest charge particularly in partnerships. So for instance, if 3 partners provide 50k, 40k and 30k to the partnership, the partner who puts in 50k will get a higher return on the capital than the others (1+ 1 = b). They also charge interest against money taken out of the partnership by partners during the year to recognise the cost to the partnership and the benefit to the partner of the money.

Companies limited by guarantee are different to partnerships, they're really just like limited companies but there's no share capital that creditors claim against. Instead there's a guarantee from the members (usually not very much). Similarly there's a benefit to a branch of using central funds and the cost of those funds is borne by the other branches. So in order to recognise this the IRFU charges interest on the extraordinary capital that it provides to it's branches.

Am i right in saying you know the SROFA about this stuff?
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 6th, 2016, 10:50 pm

This topic could get really interesting if you could get even one agreed legal opinion on the matter.

As Dave Cahill stated Thomond Park is owned by a Company. That is definitely a separate legal entity.

The IRFU is an unincorporated trust, the governing body of a national sports organisation which has four Branches. However, whilst it is a recognised body, it may not be a legal entity. Equally, although there are four Branches, if the IRFU is not a legal entity, although it is a recognised one, the existance of Branches is a convenience of administration, rather than a principle of governance, or evidence of a legal entity.

It's also worth noting that each Province appoints Trustees to hold their property, in trust, for the Province. The IRFU also appoints Trustees for the same purpose, i.e. to hold their Property, although the IRFU also has the right under its Bye Laws to create a Company, if thought prudent, to replace the Trustees by establishing a Company.

However, the IRFU does not currently have authority to appoint the Trustees of each Province. That power is reserved by each Province, to its members (the Clubs) at AGM.

So Ravenhill is held, in trust, by the Trustees of the Ulster Province of the IRFU, for the Province of Ulster. The Province is constituted by member Clubs in two jurisdictions, but is defined as a Branch of an unincorporated trust based in one of the jurisdictions.

And you thought the Brexit question was easy?

It would not surprise me to see the IRFU decide to establish a Company to hold all Provincial properties and request the Provinces (through Special General Meetings) to request their currently appointed trustees to donate all property held in trust to this newly established Company.

Only by doing this can the IRFU hope to regulate, or oversee, the financial support of different Provinces on some sort of equitable basis - and that will not be easy.

The current structure is a Gordian Knot, but it may become an impossible burden unless a modern structure is imposed which reflects political and financial realities.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Dave Cahill » June 7th, 2016, 9:11 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:So Ravenhill is held, in trust, by the Trustees of the Ulster Province of the IRFU, for the Province of Ulster. The Province is constituted by member Clubs in two jurisdictions, but is defined as a Branch of an unincorporated trust based in one of the jurisdictions.



Ravenhill is a slighty odd one though, is it not? The grounds were originally purchased, in good part, as an early form of PR exercise. Partition and the splitting of the IFA caused great uncertainty within the sport and the purchase of the Ravenhill grounds was 'Dublin' saying to 'Belfast' that nothing had changed.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Dave Cahill » June 7th, 2016, 9:35 am

Xanthippe wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:The ticket sales bit is just interesting/breaks a stereotype


Have a feeling that putting that ticket sales stat in their report was actually someone being REALLY clever. Bet they'll use it in fixture negotiations as a reason why they should never have to play on Friday night or Sunday afternoon. Expect it to be put forward that because 70% of support comes from outside Limetick they should be allowed to play all their home games at 7pm on Saturday!!



I would mistrust that stat. Whilst it was probably something on a slide that didn't have any granularity to it, it lacks enough information to be of any use whatsover. Is Limerick the City or the County, when they say Limerick do they mean the urban/metropolitan area that excludes the parts of Limerick in Clare for example? Are those tickets counted in Limerick or Clare. I operate a policy of never trusting a word Munster Rugby say about Limerick or Cork unless I know who is saying it and why. It is a policy that has served me well.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby rooster » June 7th, 2016, 11:56 am

Peg Leg wrote:Feta focking cheese, case closed.

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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby simonokeeffe » June 7th, 2016, 12:37 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:The ticket sales bit is just interesting/breaks a stereotype


Have a feeling that putting that ticket sales stat in their report was actually someone being REALLY clever. Bet they'll use it in fixture negotiations as a reason why they should never have to play on Friday night or Sunday afternoon. Expect it to be put forward that because 70% of support comes from outside Limetick they should be allowed to play all their home games at 7pm on Saturday!!



I would mistrust that stat. Whilst it was probably something on a slide that didn't have any granularity to it, it lacks enough information to be of any use whatsover. Is Limerick the City or the County, when they say Limerick do they mean the urban/metropolitan area that excludes the parts of Limerick in Clare for example? Are those tickets counted in Limerick or Clare. I operate a policy of never trusting a word Munster Rugby say about Limerick or Cork unless I know who is saying it and why. It is a policy that has served me well.


Think that figure was in one of the podcasts but yeah would be interesting to know exactly what was meant
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby Grumpy Old Man » June 7th, 2016, 1:49 pm

COYBIB wrote:
Leinster should sell Donnybrook, probably to the IRFU, at least the main pitch and stand, and sell the back pitch to developers. That could bring in a cool €80-€100m for the province to live off.



I'm assuming that you pulled that figure out of the air.

The entire is roughly a ten acre site, currently zoned "To preserve, provide and improve recreational amenity and open space and green networks." There are legal issues to do with the Tennis club. The best comparable I can think of is the sale of the Redemptorist lands in Rathgar - 8.11 acres that sold for c. €43m in Q3 2015. That had full planning permission for a residential development.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby simonokeeffe » June 7th, 2016, 1:53 pm

Jacques Nienaber confirmed as defence coach on 3 year deal
Fla extra year as scrum coach
Felix Jones on one year deal (people laughed when I suggested that :P) as a technical coach with the primary focus on development of the team's attacking fundamental skills
Walsh is gone but no defined backs coach there

Now this I feel sorry for Foley on, but interesting lack of demarkation between backs and forwards in general;

Although Erasmus will be accountable for team performance and all on-field coaching, his primary coaching role will see him take charge of attack while Head Coach Anthony Foley will assume responsibility for line-outs and the breakdown.
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby RobbieRockBoy » May 19th, 2017, 11:17 am

Keatley and Taute staying, Saili and Donnacha Ryan confirmed leaving

Munster Rugby and the IRFU can confirm that Ian Keatley and Jaco Taute have both signed contract extensions while a number of players are set to depart the province at the end of the season, including Donnacha Ryan and Francis Saili.

Thirty-year-old Ian Keatley, who has been with the province since making his debut against Newport Gwent Dragons in September 2011, most recently marked his 150th appearance with a man of the match performance against Connacht in round 22 of the Guinness PRO12. In October the experienced out-half became the second Munster player ever to score over 1000 points, achieving the milestone against Zebre in Thomond Park. Keatley, who has been capped on five occasions for Ireland, has signed up to the province for a further two years.

Similarly 26-year-old Springbok Jaco Taute has signed a two-year deal that will see him remain with Munster until June 2019. Initially arriving on a loan basis from the Stormers and Western Province, the centre has lined out for the province on 24 occasions since arriving in September, scoring 8 tries. Taute has made three appearances for South Africa.

Speaking about the signings Director of Rugby Rassie Erasmus said: “With Ian and Jaco we are retaining the services of two quality players. Both highly experienced and versatile, they not only add value on field but are also good guys to have in our environment.”

On the departure front Munster’s most capped player of the current squad, Donnacha Ryan, will make the move to Top 14 side Racing 92 at the end of the season. The 33-year-old has made 165 appearances since making his debut against Ospreys in September 2004. The Nenagh-man enjoyed Heineken Cup and Magners League success over a 13-year-career in the red jersey and was awarded Munster’s Player of the Year in 2012. On the international front he has made 47 Ireland appearances, lining out in two World Cups (France 2007 & England 2015), and last November played a pivotal role in Ireland’s historic victory against the All Blacks in Chicago.

Centre Francis Saili, prop Peter McCabe and lock John Madigan are also set to depart at the end of the season with the trio all moving on to other clubs, while centre Cian Bohane and lock Mark Chisholm have both confirmed they are to retire from professional rugby.

Saili has made 38 appearances over two seasons and scored 8 tries, whileBohane most recently captained Munster A in their British and Irish Cup success, with Chisholm, McCabe and Madigan all playing their part in the winning campaign.

Commenting on the departures Erasmus added, “I would like to take this opportunity to thank each of our departing players for their service to Munster Rugby. Each individual has contributed to the province and played a role in our development and success to date.

“In recognising a stellar career for the province I would like to single out Donnacha Ryan for his outstanding service to Munster Rugby for over 13 years. He is a leader on and off the field and has passed on his experience and knowledge to the next generation. We wish Donnacha and all who are leaving all the best for the future.

“Of course there is still rugby to be played with a huge semi-final against Ospreys this weekend, giving our supporters the chance to bid farewell in what is the final game of the season in Thomond Park.”
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby simonokeeffe » May 19th, 2017, 11:22 am

Bit surprised Keatley is staying as you would think he is 3rd choice now

Theyll be delighted about Taute but thats bad news for Arnold. Youd hope Farrell will be starting 13
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 19th, 2017, 11:48 am

Delighted for Keatley, very hard to envisage this 18 months or so ago but he's turned it around well and it's great that he'd even want to stay after that bad patch.

Don't think Taute has been as good since he announced he was here until the end of the season but he's still a big player for them and I think they'll need him. Doubt it will happen but I keep saying that JJ should go to 12, could still be top class there IMO.
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Re: Munster 2015/2016

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 19th, 2017, 11:55 am

Just thinking, hope the Keatley extension doesn't mean bad news for Johnstone.
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